How many of you are currently employed (graduates only)?

[StatGuy2000]

Hi everyone! I did a similar poll earlier, but I wanted to start a new poll asking how many of you are currently employed or unemployed.

Now please keep the following in mind:

(1) Only reply if you are a graduate of a STEM program (any science program, engineering, math, statistics, computer science, etc.).

(2) Only reply if you are a graduate. In other words, do not reply if you are a current student. That includes those who are currently pursuing their PhD.

Please note that this poll will be open for 30 days starting today. Thanks for you responses!

 

[gmax137]

What are you trying to find out with this poll? I'm not real sure what you can tease out of a one-question survey.

 

[StatGuy2000]

What are you trying to find out with this poll? I'm not real sure what you can tease out of a one-question survey.

Nothing more than a snapshot of the demographics of PF forum, more specifically the number of people who are either employed or unemployed (partly because we see many posts in the Career Guidance section about concerns about finding employment). I did a similar poll 2 years ago, and wanted to see an update in 2016.

 

[mfb]

Nothing more than a snapshot of the demographics of PF forum, more specifically the number of people who are either employed or unemployed (partly because we see many posts in the Career Guidance section about concerns about finding employment).

You don't get that.
You get a snapshot of PF members looking into your thread in the Career Guidance forum, willing to vote. Plus some deviations from votes that are not done in the right category.

What about (employed) PhD students with a finished master, as it is usual in Europe?

 

[StatGuy2000]

You don't get that.
You get a snapshot of PF members looking into your thread in the Career Guidance forum, willing to vote. Plus some deviations from votes that are not done in the right category.

What about (employed) PhD students with a finished master, as it is usual in Europe?

Of course the snapshot of PF forum is reliant on those who visit this thread in the Career Guidance forum, willing to vote. I'm well aware that I may not be capturing the sample population. This is not a scientific poll, and I don't intend to represent this as such.

I'm curious -- when you state that the PhD students are employed, are these people working in the private or public sector independent of their PhD studies/research?
Because my understanding is that PhD students are not employed full-time, but are working as part of their PhD studies.

At any rate, I'm interested in those PF members who have finished all of their STEM studies (whether it is at the bachelors, masters, or doctorate level).

 

[mfb]

I'm curious -- when you state that the PhD students are employed, are these people working in the private or public sector independent of their PhD studies/research?
Because my understanding is that PhD students are not employed full-time, but are working as part of their PhD studies.

Most PhD positions are paid half-time, some 3/4, some full. They can be in the private sector, most are in the public sector.

At any rate, I'm interested in those PF members who have finished all of their STEM studies (whether it is at the bachelors, masters, or doctorate level).

Looks quite arbitrary to me (you can also go for a "Habilitation" in Germany, which is 5 to 10 years after the PhD - does that count as "STEM studies"?).

 

[StatGuy2000]

Looks quite arbitrary to me (you can also go for a "Habilitation" in Germany, which is 5 to 10 years after the PhD - does that count as "STEM studies"?).

Then let me ask the question to you, mfb. How would you have designed this poll instead, to address which PF member is employed (specifically not counting those who are still students)?

 

[heatengine516]

What if someone with a STEM degree is employed in a non-STEM field?

 

[Vanadium 50]

What if someone with a STEM degree is employed in a non-STEM field?

Then they are employed.

 

[WWGD]

Then they are employed.

Well, yes, but I think the point was whether StatGuy2000 may want to note that in his poll, since he is (seems to be) interested on the outcomes of those who study in the STEM area.

 

[mfb]

Then let me ask the question to you, mfb. How would you have designed this poll instead, to address which PF member is employed (specifically not counting those who are still students)?

Simple: Count employed PhD students as employed. They have "students" in their title - so what? They could have gotten a job elsewhere, they chose to get a job as PhD student. A MSc graduate looking for a job (PhD or elsewhere) is unemployed, so you are biasing the result if you don't count PhD students.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

For example, in The Netherlands, in almost all cases PhD students have the legal status of employees (with full benefits) with a fixed term contract, so I agree with @mfb.

 

[Boolean Boogey]

Nothing more than a snapshot of the demographics of PF forum, more specifically the number of people who are either employed or unemployed

How on Earth do you intend to get that from this thread? At best you are getting a sample of those that visit this thread with a STEM degree.

It's as though you wanted to survey how many members of a large church are degree holders. You place the papers that contain the survey in one room of the church that not everyone goes into, then attempted to use that data to make generalizations about the whole.

 

[Boolean Boogey]

You're also ignoring area, which has a huge impact on employment. Let's say 100 people graduate with engineering degrees and they all decide to remain where I live and look for employment. I can promise you that the unemployment of those graduates would remain high until they accepted a position that was not working as an engineer. Now let's assume those 100 take job offers and move away, their employment numbers will be much higher.

It seems you only care if they're employed too, instead of if they are employed in a field that they were interested in that requires a degree to gain entry into it. What about STEM graduates that were unable to gain employment in the field of their choice and were then required to accept a low paying position. According to your poll they count as employed, even if they're employed doing something that required no degree to do.

 

[StatGuy2000]

How on Earth do you intend to get that from this thread? At best you are getting a sample of those that visit this thread with a STEM degree.

It's as though you wanted to survey how many members of a large church are degree holders. You place the papers that contain the survey in one room of the church that not everyone goes into, then attempted to use that data to make generalizations about the whole.

First of all, you are taking this poll way too seriously! I very much understand the limitations of this poll, as it can only sample those who are members of PF who happen to visit this thread with a STEM degree (my underlying assumption is that, given the nature of PF, that there will be a higher percentage of those who are PF members who have STEM degrees compared to those in other degree programs).

That being said, this is a fundamental limitation of trying to ascertain characteristics of the study population (in this instance, PF members). A more "scientific" approach would be to select a "random" sample of PF members, and send them a list of questions about their education, employment, etc (whatever information is not already reported publicly in their profiles). Of course, setting aside whether the moderators will allow me to do this, there is the question of non-response, and whether responders are truly representative of the study population (are we dealing with Missing-At-Random or not).

 

[ModusPwnd]

It seems you only care if they're employed too, instead of if they are employed in a field that they were interested in that requires a degree to gain entry into it. What about STEM graduates that were unable to gain employment in the field of their choice and were then required to accept a low paying position. According to your poll they count as employed, even if they're employed doing something that required no degree to do.

That is how general unemployment figures work. When you see unemployment figures for graduates it is just that, unemployed. I worked in a pizza place after graduating. I was employed. My employment contributed to the low unemployment numbers for physics graduates.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Boolean Boogey, ModusPwnd,

I was deliberate in my question about looking at those within PF forums who graduated from STEM degrees and who are employed, not looking at whether they were employed related to their studies. If I wanted to articulate all of the subtleties involved, I would require a much more detailed series of survey questions instead of one poll. I would have to questions like "Are you working in an area related to your studies?", followed up by "Are you working in an area that does not require a college/university degree?", followed up by "How much do you get paid per year?", followed up by "Are you satisfied with the job you have?"

The format of PF polls as they are, such a detailed series of surveys is just not practical, and to complain about my poll is frankly silly.

 

[Jaeusm]

and to complain about my poll is frankly silly.

Indeed.

 

[Boolean Boogey]

First of all, you are taking this poll way too seriously!

Well what gives me the obsessive love of mathematics and ability to play around with boolean algebra also causes me to take everything literally and seriously.

It's a blessing and a curse haha.

 

[tedbmoss]

its pretty obvious that stats don't require all this discussion, just take it as it is. within the parameters given, it is good data for the purpose intended. (but then I am one of the unemployed).

 

[Boolean Boogey]

its pretty obvious that stats don't require all this discussion, just take it as it is. within the parameters given, it is good data for the purpose intended. (but then I am one of the unemployed).

I question all statistical data given how easily it's manipulated to show what you want it to show.

"Giving a school man only a little , or very superficial, knowledge of statistics is like putting a razor in the hands of a baby."

 

[Locrian]

It's not stats until you estimate a parameter.

What's here is a sample.

 

[alrabiay]

I am fresh graduate Mechanical Engineer from a well known university where I am living but I did not get any opportunity since I graduated in Jan. 2015. This because I am living in a country that is not my home country and they consider me as foreign . All fresh graduate job opportunities are for those who have the nationality of that country.

Do you an opportunity for me ! LOOL

 

[StatGuy2000]

I question all statistical data given how easily it's manipulated to show what you want it to show.

"Giving a school man only a little , or very superficial, knowledge of statistics is like putting a razor in the hands of a baby."

I'm a statistician (hence my handle "StatGuy2000"). What you are talking about is not "statistical data", but purported "statistics". And when you talk about manipulation, those who are guilty are not statisticians, but those who don't know stats who purposely apply false, misleading, or mistaken methodology and present it as evidence of facts.

I would like to think we statisticians do a better job than this.

BTW, I will reiterate again and again -- it was never my intention to present this poll as a "scientific" poll, nor do I have any illusion that this poll is a substitute for a carefully designed survey (I've been involved in survey design years ago).

 

[StatGuy2000]

It's not stats until you estimate a parameter.

What's here is a sample.

Correct -- all that is presented is a sample of the population of PF.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

I would like to think we statisticians do a better job than this.

Yes, I think that you do.

It are certain managers, policy makers, journalists and numerous politicians who molest your field on a regular basis. Probably as a professional statistician it must sometimes be hard to withstand the pressure exerted by such parties to present results of your analyses in their favor. Since you deal so often with people that have merely their own interests in mind, it must be a complicated job.

 

[Boolean Boogey]

BTW, I will reiterate again and again -- it was never my intention to present this poll as a "scientific" poll, nor do I have any illusion that this poll is a substitute for a carefully designed survey (I've been involved in survey design years ago).

No, I did mean statistical data. Also, -shurgs-. You said you were looking to get "a snapshot of the demographics of PF forum" which you clearly cannot get from this thread. My job entails a large portion of troubleshooting and boolean mumbojumbo so I pick everything apart while simultaneously taking everything literally.

 

[MarneMath]

If you want to take things literal then he is capturing a snapshot of the demographics of the PF forum, it just happens to be a bias one. Nothing stops me from going into my databases and pulling information dealing with the state of Alaska and saying this is a snapshot of the data contained in my database. It is, but the data presented wouldn't accurately represent the lower 48.

 

[snatchingthepi]

I have a BSc in physics and BMus in music and I'm currently teaching a combined preschool/kindergarten class music seven hours under full-time every week.

 

[WWGD]

If you want to take things literal then he is capturing a snapshot of the demographics of the PF forum, it just happens to be a bias one. Nothing stops me from going into my databases and pulling information dealing with the state of Alaska and saying this is a snapshot of the data contained in my database. It is, but the data presented wouldn't accurately represent the lower 48.

@StatGuy2000 : I am trying to speak for you here, please let me know if I have it right:
But he is aware of that and he is not claiming otherwise. And he is also , realistically, unable to run a rigorous test, because this would require him to ask way more questions of people than most would be willing to answer and he may run afoul of PF rules in the process. The conditions of a standard user do not realistically allow for a random representative sample to be run. So Staguy2000 is aiming for the best he can do under these conditions, not the best that could be done under (more ) ideal conditions.

 

[StatGuy2000]

@StatGuy2000 : I am trying to speak for you here, please let me know if I have it right:
But he is aware of that and he is not claiming otherwise. And he is also , realistically, unable to run a rigorous test, because this would require him to ask way more questions of people than most would be willing to answer and he may run afoul of PF rules in the process. The conditions of a standard user do not realistically allow for a random representative sample to be run. So Staguy2000 is aiming for the best he can do under these conditions, not the best that could be done under (more ) ideal conditions.

You have it exactly right.

 

[StatGuy2000]

If you want to take things literal then he is capturing a snapshot of the demographics of the PF forum, it just happens to be a bias one. Nothing stops me from going into my databases and pulling information dealing with the state of Alaska and saying this is a snapshot of the data contained in my database. It is, but the data presented wouldn't accurately represent the lower 48.

WWGD more or less summarized my response, but I will respond as follows:

I am well aware that this is biased snapshot, since it relies on members of PF forums who are visiting this particular thread to specifically reply to my poll. As a statistician, I'm sure you are aware that to obtain an accurate representation of the PF membership would require more detailed sets of survey questions sent out (via e-mail, conversations, or some other manner) to a randomized sample (we are for the moment not weighting or adjusting for age, gender, or other demographic characteristics). As I've already stated, such a survey is not practical, so the poll as presented is really the only tool I have at my disposal to even obtain a biased perspective of the question I'm interested in, with all of its limitations.

 

[MarneMath]

Maybe I wasn't clear, I wasn't directing my comment towards you StatGuy but rather Boolean comment that he was taking everything you said literally. Thus I replied if that was the case, then he should be aware that he's doing a poor job of such. I personally have no problems with what you are doing. I've read enough of your post to be aware that you're not ignorant of our field :).

 

[Boolean Boogey]

If you want to take things literal then he is capturing a snapshot of the demographics of the PF forum, it just happens to be a bias one. Nothing stops me from going into my databases and pulling information dealing with the state of Alaska and saying this is a snapshot of the data contained in my database. It is, but the data presented wouldn't accurately represent the lower 48.

Actually, to take things literally you have to say he is capturing a snapshot of one narrow section of the PF forum, not the forum itself. Also I am well aware of dishonest data manipulation which is why I am so nit picky. I consider poorly defined or poorly collected data to be pointless.

 

[russ_watters]

I consider poorly defined or poorly collected data to be pointless.

Statguy disagrees and it's his poll, not yours.

For the love of god, people, this is a harmless poll. Either answer it or don't (or ask honestly for clarifications of intent to enable you to answer). Nitpicking it is pointless/counterproductive/insulting/disruptive.

 

[Boolean Boogey]

Nitpicking it is pointless/counterproductive/insulting/disruptive.

Nitpicking is also a great way to learn. It's a shame people are so sensitive and unable to debate for fun these days, always so quick to take offense.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Nitpicking is also a great way to learn.

No, no it's not. Countless threads have been rendered ineffective because they have been derailed by someone who would rather nitpick than actually answer the posted question, and it's only because of the efforts of the Mentors that there are not an order of magnitude more.

This particular quibble is especially pointless. It boils down to "you could have asked a different question." Yes, he could have. But he didn't. He asked this one.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Realistically, people attend a school, get a degree, and then start building a career. The career will morph and change over time. I could easily have gone into management, but I chose not to. Had I done so, I would not be working in a STEM field. So if StatGuy2000 had asked whether I was working on anything remotely related to my STEM major I'd have had to answer no.

We have to recognize that once you start building a career, your technical education may not always be the piece in use. I know one guy who got a STEM degree, went back for his MBA, and now is working at the executive level of the company. Is he a success? Hell yeah! And yet you can't tell from this survey whether he ended up at the executive level or whether he's running a coffee shop. No simple survey could tell you that and even if it could, it doesn't discuss the progression and how things came to be. Was it something in the education or was it the individual? Nature? Nurture? --Whatever.

This survey is probably just a curiosity itch that StatGuy2000 wanted to scratch. From here, perhaps we can figure out other questions to ask...

Good start, StatGuy!