How to convert C-12 / C-13 to C-1

[Jacquesl]

How to convert C-12 / C-13 to C-1, does anyone know how this can be done, how much energy will I need to bang out a neutron?

 

[Astronuc]

In

C-12 / C-13 to C-1

what is C-1?

If the nuclide C-12 absorbs a neutron, it becomes C-13. C-13 is stable.

Knocking out a neutron of C-12 would produce C-11, which transforms by electron capture (EC) to B-11. One could use a (p,n) reaction.

Determine the binding energy of the last neutron.

 

[Gokul43201]

How to convert C-12 / C-13 to C-1, does anyone know how this can be done, how much energy will I need to bang out a neutron?

There's no such thing as C-1. C has 6 protons.

 

[Jacquesl]

Carbon-12 contains 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons.

If I must take a shot, C-6 will be the highest ?

 

[AlphaNumeric]

Firstly, you won't get the equipment needed to do such nuclear reactions. It's expensive, complicated, dangerous and can be used to make nuclear weapons materials.

Secondly, you can't make Carbon-6, the lack of neutrons means it would be too unstable to exist. I doubt you can get Carbon-10, any decay process would favour Boron instead.

You still don't seem to have realized that if such processes were possible and simple, someone else would have realized it by now. You're showing that you haven't studied nuclear physics at all and are just stumbling about in the dark unfortunately.

 

[Jacquesl]

What happens to H-6 then it’s on decay mode?

He-6 becomes H-6, but H-6 can becomes nothing?

 

[Astronuc]

Carbon-12 contains 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons.

If I must take a shot, C-6 will be the highest ?

C¹² (6p, 6n) and C¹³ (6p, 7n) are the stable isotopes of carbon. The other isotopes are unstable or radioactive.

What is it that one is trying to do by changing the number of neutrons in the carbon nucleus?

 

[Jacquesl]

Firstly, you won't get the equipment needed to do such nuclear reactions. It's expensive, complicated

Ok the big idea is to make Carbon decay to Hydrogen, this is part of one of my projects, and I doubt that it will take as much as 8MeV gammas to do the job? Because it’s all light materials

 

[Gokul43201]

You're doing a project that involves nuclear fission? And you're doing it without learning that a nucleus is?

I fear this is falling on deaf ears, but your approach to science is completely backwards. You start at the basics. You don't stumble upon them in the process of building a nuclear bomb!

 

[Astronuc]

Ok the big idea is to make Carbon decay to Hydrogen,

Carbon won't decay to hydrogen. Rather, one could knock out a proton, by a sufficiently energetic (n,p) reaction, but that leaves a boron nucleus. One could knock out another proton and obtain Be, and so on throught Li, He and finally H. However, when all is said and done, that's a lot of energy expended for little gain.

Back to the (n,p) reaction, that is how one could produced hydrogen, but then the nuclear energy input greatly exceeds any chemical energy.

What happens to H-6 then it’s on decay mode?

He-6 becomes H-6, but H-6 can becomes nothing?

Well He-6 apparently decays by beta emission to Li-6. H-6, H-5 and H-4 decay by neutron emission, at least according the Chart of Nuclides on BNL's website. I would be interested in how someone made H-4, H-5 or H-6, as these would tend to be highly unstable with very short half-lives.

 

[Jacquesl]

Yip, dam, I understand this now

So He-6 is in energy absorbing state again, and then it goes to Li-6, wierd?

 

[Sojourner01]

Why is it weird? What's weird is expecting a light nucleus to exist with twice as many neutrons as protons. Though the heavy nuclei do it, it's highly unstable for light ones.

 

[Jacquesl]

I’ve just found out about decay, that O-15 decays to N-15, and now it’s in the opposite way like He-6 go to Li-6
And I’m in my early 19, a young man, with a lot of mental vomit like russ said

 

[Azael]

Jacquesl how about reviewing the basics.

Do you understand how to calculate the Q value for a decay or reaction?

Do you know that you need a positive Q value for a decay to be possible?

For instance calculate the Q value for the hypothetical reaction you are interested in.

12C ---> 6H+6n

It will turn out to be a quite large negative value. Thats the minimum energy you would have to put in for it to happen(ignoring whatever process you want to use).

 

[Jacquesl]

Do you understand how to calculate the Q value for a decay or reaction?

Nope

Do you know that you need a positive Q value for a decay to be possible?

Nope

 

[Azael]

The Q value is the energy difference betwen what you begin with and what you end with. Its very simple.

In the example above you would calculate it as

Q=[M(12C)-6M(H)-6M(n)]*C^2

Where M denotes atomic mass.

For a decay to be possible the Q value has to be positive, if its not positive that particular decay is not energeticaly favorable and you need to supply energy to it. Decays happen because the nuclei wants to progress to the configuration with the lowest energy.

 

[Jacquesl]

Its very simple.

Lol, I not so sure man

What does Q symbol stand for, I know it’s energy now, but, Joule, eV, Coulomb or Watts ?
In my electronic book, my have a formula of Q = C x V
that C is for Capacitance and the V like you know, Volt
In the book it describes as says something like, Q = Charge


Q=[M(12C)-6M(H)-6M(n)]*C^2

Q = Charge
M = Mass
(n) = neutrons
12C = C-12, carbon / (12XC), what must C value be
And that H what value must you put in there?

 

[Jacquesl]

My idea is to take the CO2 and make the C turn into H via neutron capture and then you just use that O2 + H = Energy
If you turn C to H there will be some energy release I’m not yet 100% sure where, but somewhere there will be a gain, because it took energy to make H-1 turn to C

So I want to take C-12 / C-13 and convert the isotopes to C-1, but now that won't be the case, I can't make it C-1, I can only make it C-8, so that sucks

 

[Norman]

My idea is to take the CO2 and make the C turn into H via neutron capture and then you just use that O2 + H = Energy
If you turn C to H there will be some energy release I’m not yet 100% sure where, but somewhere there will be a gain, because it took energy to make H-1 turn to C

So I want to take C-12 / C-13 and convert the isotopes to C-1, but now that won't be the case, I can't make it C-1, I can only make it C-8, so that sucks

After reading this whole thing... I still don't get whata C-1 is? I think I know what he means when he puts C-12 or C-13, but when I see C-1 I am very very confused. I think you need to pick up an introductory physics book and read the intro of nuclear physics. Then buy a nuclear physics book and work through it. I suggest the book by Krane as a nice starting point.

Like everyone else has said. Let's start from the basics. Cause you are not speaking science when you write something like C-1. And that makes it really hard on the rest of us.

 

[Azael]

Lol, I not so sure man

What does Q symbol stand for, I know it’s energy now, but, Joule, eV, Coulomb or Watts ?
In my electronic book, my have a formula of Q = C x V
that C is for Capacitance and the V like you know, Volt
In the book it describes as says something like, Q = Charge


Q=[M(12C)-6M(H)-6M(n)]*C^2

Q = Charge
M = Mass
(n) = neutrons
12C = C-12, carbon / (12XC), what must C value be
And that H what value must you put in there?

I don't mean this in a offensive way. But you need to read up one some basic physics.

The Q value has nothing at all to do with electromagnetism. It is the net energy release from the decay. It is just E=mc^2 applied to the decay situation.

C at the end is the speed of light.
By M(12C) I mean the atomic mass of carbon 12. By 6M(H) I mean 6 times the atomic mass of hydrogen.

The energy can be of any unit depending on what units you put into the formula(this hold for every formula anywhere in physics).
Btw Coloumb and Watts are not even units of energy.

My idea is to take the CO2 and make the C turn into H via neutron capture and then you just use that O2 + H = Energy
If you turn C to H there will be some energy release I’m not yet 100% sure where, but somewhere there will be a gain, because it took energy to make H-1 turn to C

This above is mostly just jibberish. There is no logic behind it. You are mixing chemistry with nuclear physics in a way that makes no sense at all.

So I want to take C-12 / C-13 and convert the isotopes to C-1, but now that won't be the case, I can't make it C-1, I can only make it C-8, so that sucks

There is no such thing as C-1. You need to understand the notation.

 

[Jacquesl]

I had a feeling your are going to say E=mc^2, ok it seems that my idea sucks,

My big idea is just to generate electricity from free stuff like CO2 it’s freely available in the atmosphere

It’s like photosynthesis “6 CO2 + 12 H2O + light → C6H12O6 + 6 O2 + 6 H2O”
Take the CO2 with Water and Light ?? ”energy” = Glucose + Oxygen + Water
Plants just take the CO2 and convert it to Sugar, its like cleaners

So by just trying to convert that Carbon to Hydrogen, and then feeding a fuel cell with Hydrogen and oxygen and get a current running, but you say, it’s impossible, to me it seems plausible, but I’m no expert

 

[Jacquesl]

He-6 apparently decays by beta emission to Li-6.

To come back again to that He-6 decays to Li-6.

So to understand this thing better?
If you make He-6 from He-4 by adding energy, neutrons or something it will decays to Li-6.
And if you take O-16 and take some energy, neutrons or something you’ll get O-15, and that O-15 will decays to N-15.
To my understanding the down part on isotopes decays back to a stable element, forwards and the top part also decays from a unstable element back to a stable one two

 

[AlphaNumeric]

My idea is to take the CO2 and make the C turn into H via neutron capture and then you just use that O2 + H = Energy
If you turn C to H there will be some energy release I’m not yet 100% sure where, but somewhere there will be a gain, because it took energy to make H-1 turn to C

Turning carbon to hydrogen TAKES energy, many many thousands (if not millions) of times more energy you'd get from then burning tha hydrogen with oxygen.

Why not actually learn some physics so that you understand what processes actually produce energy and which ones use it?

LIn my electronic book, my have a formula of Q = C x V
that C is for Capacitance and the V like you know, Volt
In the book it describes as says something like, Q = Charge

When looking for the phone number of a local taxi company, do you look in a cook book? No, because you know you find recipies in a cook book, not phone numbers. So why are you looking in an electronics textbook for nuclear physics models?

 

[Astronuc]

Turning carbon to hydrogen TAKES energy, many many thousands (if not millions) of times more energy you'd get from then burning tha hydrogen with oxygen.

That is exactly what makes converting C to H impractical.

The nuclear reactions required to remove nucleons require several MeV, while the chemical reaction per atom (or bond) is on the order of eV.

 

[Jacquesl]

So why are you looking in an electronics textbook for nuclear physics models?

I don’t have any nuclear physics textbooks or resources. And I’m working on the lowest tech internet you can imagine dial-up


To come back again to that He-6 decays to Li-6.

So to understand this thing better?
If you make He-6 from He-4 by adding energy, neutrons or something it will decays to Li-6.
And if you take O-16 and take some energy, neutrons or something you’ll get O-15, and that O-15 will decays to N-15.
To my understanding the down part on isotopes decays back to a stable element, forwards and the top part also decays from a unstable element back to a stable one two

 

[Astronuc]

To come back again to that He-6 decays to Li-6.

Yes.

If you make He-6 from He-4 by adding energy, neutrons or something it will decays to Li-6.

Yes, but He-4 has a very low cross-section - probability of absorbing neutrons, so it would not be a practical thing to the. I don't know the process which others have used to produce He-6, but I might venture that they used an (n,p) reaction to change Li-6 to He-6, which then promptly (or relatively quickly) decays back to Li-6.

And if you take O-16 and take some energy, neutrons or something you’ll get O-15, and that O-15 will decays to N-15.

It is possible to obtain O-15 from O-16, but perhaps not very practical. Certainly O-15 transforms to N-15 via electron capture.

To my understanding the down part on isotopes decays back to a stable element, forwards and the top part also decays from a unstable element back to a stable one two

Radionuclides eventually decay to a nuclide that is stable, i.e. non-radioactive. That's the way nature works.

 

[Azael]

I don’t have any nuclear physics textbooks or resources. And I’m working on the lowest tech internet you can imagine dial-up


To come back again to that He-6 decays to Li-6.

So to understand this thing better?
If you make He-6 from He-4 by adding energy, neutrons or something it will decays to Li-6.
And if you take O-16 and take some energy, neutrons or something you’ll get O-15, and that O-15 will decays to N-15.
To my understanding the down part on isotopes decays back to a stable element, forwards and the top part also decays from a unstable element back to a stable one two

If you look at the table of isotopes
http://www.ims.uaf.edu/isotopes/class-images/isotope-table.jpg [Broken]

You se a line of stable isotopes with radioactive ones both below and above. The unstable isotopes decay until they become one of the stable. The further away you are from the line the less stable is the isotope.

If a isotope decays through beta+ it will change one proton into a neutron and emit a positron. It will "move" one step down and to the right on the table of isotopes. Example is 8B decays into 8Be, or the one you mentioned where 15O decays into 15N

If it decays through beta- it will change a neutron into a proton, emit a electron and move one step up and to the left on the table. A example is 3H decays to 3He.

The third way something can decay is through alpha decay. Then a nucleus emits a 4He and moves 2 steps down and 2 steps to the left on the table. Example of that is 8B decays into 4He.

Isotopes above the stable line will decay through beta+ or alpha while isotopes below will decay through beta-.

You will never se 12B decay into 12Be for instance.

Now by knowing this you can fairly acurately look at the table of isotoes and predict how something will decay. Its a fair guess that for example 19O will decay into 19F or that 22Na will decay into 22Ne.

I hope that clears up decays a bit. But maby it just makes things more confusing.

 

[Gokul43201]

I'd just like to note that it would be in jacques' best interests if he did not come out of this (and a dozen similar threads) with the notion that somehow, you can internet-hop your way through a science education. To that end, I urge others to not encourage jacques' attitude of "I can build impossible devices because there is no such thing as impossible", which is based on no comprehension of the most fundamental concepts of science.

Jacques does not need a book on nuclear physics. He needs a simple high school physics text, and he needs to learn it completely.

 

[Jacquesl]

Sweat stuff man!

The unstable isotopes decay until they become one of the stable.

I’ve starting to understand this better now.

You will never se 12B decay into 12Be for instance.

What happens to Be-12 then? It doesn’t stick with B-12 because it’s not stable so will it go to C-12 ?

The third way something can decay is through alpha decay. Then a nucleus emits a 4He and moves 2 steps down and 2 steps to the left on the table. Example of that is 8B decays into 4He.

I’m not getting this one yet, 8B decays into 4He ?? It doesn’t have a stable 8 Isobar "B-8, Be-8, Li-8 and He-8" to fall back to, so now it goes to He-4 ?

And Li-5 decays to > H-1 ?

 

[Jacquesl]

I'd just like to note that it would be in jacques' best interests if he did not come out of this (and a dozen similar threads) with the notion that somehow, you can internet-hop your way through a science education. To that end, I urge others to not encourage jacques' attitude of "I can build impossible devices because there is no such thing as impossible", which is based on no comprehension of the most fundamental concepts of science.

Jacques does not need a book on nuclear physics. He needs a simple high school physics text, and he needs to learn it completely.

I’m starting to convert from just practical do-do :yuck: , to theory first before build, I’m seems to works better and saved a lot of time man.

If it’s my Eng what makes me sounds stupid, that's because I’m actually Afrikaans and not Eng

 

[jgraber]

Jacquesl,
Go to the interactive chart of nuclides at
http://www.nndc.bnl.gov/chart/
for answers to your questions.
Its true you need a basic education.
But do it yourself is fun, too.
good luck!
By the way, 8B->4He + 4He.
5Li -> 4He + 1H.
It really is like simple arithmetic.
Other things are much more complicated.
Best regards,
Jim

 

[imabug]

I’m starting to convert from just practical do-do :yuck: , to theory first before build, I’m seems to works better and saved a lot of time man.

If it’s my Eng what makes me sounds stupid, that's because I’m actually Afrikaans and not Eng

Do what Gokul says and learn some basic physics first so that you can ask some intelligent questions. it's not your language deficiencies that make you sound stupid, it's the attempts to come up with theories without any firm knowledge of the physics behind what's going on. you will save a lot more time and effort