How to determine shape of surface of a fluid?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the shape of the surface of a fluid, particularly in relation to forces acting on it. Participants explore concepts related to fluid statics, the influence of external forces, and the conditions under which the fluid surface remains horizontal or becomes inclined.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the surface of a fluid is always perpendicular to the net force acting on it, citing the inability of fluids to withstand tangential stress.
  • Others clarify that this net force should be understood as the net external force, excluding forces from the fluid itself.
  • A participant questions whether the normal force from the container, which equals the weight of the fluid, should be considered in determining the fluid surface shape.
  • Another participant introduces the Young-Laplace equation to describe the shape of fluid-fluid boundaries, suggesting that local curvature relates to pressure differences across the interface.
  • Concerns are raised about the effects of shear stress from solid surfaces and external influences, such as airflow, on the fluid surface.
  • One participant notes that the previous statements regarding the perpendicularity of forces apply primarily to fluid statics, where there is no relative motion between the fluid and its container.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing interpretations of the conditions under which the fluid surface is perpendicular to forces acting on it. There is no consensus on the role of various forces or the applicability of the initial statements in different scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their discussions, including the dependency on definitions of forces and the conditions of fluid motion versus static scenarios. The implications of shear stress and external influences on fluid surfaces remain unresolved.

SurajBahuguna
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I have been told by my teacher that the surface of a fluid is always perpendicular to the net force acting on it. The reason being a fluid can not withstand tangential stress and if a shear stress is applied to it, it will slip until the surface becomes perendicular to the net force. So my question is why the surface of water is horizontal in a vessl at rest even when the net force acting on it is zero? Also why does it become diagonal(and not vertical) when it is given some horizontal acceleration?
 
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SurajBahuguna said:
I have been told by my teacher that the surface of a fluid is always perpendicular to the net force acting on it.
I guess he meant net external force (forces from the fluid itself excluded) acting on the fluid at the surface.
 
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I differ in perceiving the statement your teacher gave. The surface of the fluid is always perpendicular to the net "external" (actual plus inertial) force acting on the surface in the frame of reference of the container in which it is kept.
 
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A.T. said:
I guess he meant net external force (forces from the fluid itself excluded) acting on the fluid at the surface.
Thanks for your reply. Does that mean the normal force acting on the fluid due to the container(which is equal in magnitude to the weight of fluid) has to be ignored because it does not have any influence on the surface of the fluid?
 
SurajBahuguna said:
Does that mean the normal force acting on the fluid due to the container(which is equal in magnitude to the weight of fluid) has to be ignored because it does not have any influence on the surface of the fluid?
The external forces by the wall influence the shape of the fluid at the wall.
 
SurajBahuguna said:
I have been told by my teacher that the surface of a fluid is always perpendicular to the net force acting on it. The reason being a fluid can not withstand tangential stress and if a shear stress is applied to it, it will slip until the surface becomes perendicular to the net force. So my question is why the surface of water is horizontal in a vessl at rest even when the net force acting on it is zero? Also why does it become diagonal(and not vertical) when it is given some horizontal acceleration?

To the thread title, the shape of a fluid-fluid boundary is given by the Young-Laplace equation ΔP = γ ∇⋅n, that is to say the local curvature is equal to the pressure jump across the interface. This equation can be modified at a three-phase line (generalized theory of capillarity, principally by Neumann).

http://www.crcnetbase.com/doi/abs/10.1201/EBK0849396878-2

Regarding your question about fluid in a bucket, "Newton's bucket" is a delightful problem to consider as it leads, per Mach, directly to general relativity.
 
I guess you are talking about free surfaces here, and moreover, free surfaces over which no air (or other liquid or gas) is blowing. Solid surfaces are certainly able to exert shear stresses on fluids. How else could you have a pressure drop in flow through a tube of constant cross section? Also, if air (or other fluid or gas) is blowing over the free surface, it certainly exerts a shear stress on the fluid at the interface.

Chet
 
A.T. said:
I guess he meant net external force (forces from the fluid itself excluded) acting on the fluid at the surface.
Agreed!
Example :
If a fluid say water is put in a plastic cup and the cup is squeezed, the shape of fluid changes. Because of the force put by the hand used to squeeze cup. Here the net force of hand and gravity can be considered. :)
 
Vatsal Sanjay said:
I differ in perceiving the statement your teacher gave. The surface of the fluid is always perpendicular to the net "external" (actual plus inertial) force acting on the surface in the frame of reference of the container in which it is kept.
The external force (per unit area) acting on the free surface of a fluid is not always perpendicular to the surface. Suppose I have a shallow bowl of water filled to the brim, and I put it in a wind tunnel that blows air in the direction tangent to the surface. According to your statement, no water will blow out of the bowl, and the water surface will feel the same force per unit area as if no air were blowing.

Chet
 
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Chestermiller said:
The external force (per unit area) acting on the free surface of a fluid is not always perpendicular to the surface.
I agree. You are correct. I will reframe my statement. Whatever I said is true only for fluid statics, that is when there is no relative motion between the container and the fluid kept in it.
 

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