How to find a length of line in quadrilateral?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the length of a line segment (xy) within a quadrilateral defined by specific side lengths and angles. Participants explore different scenarios based on whether the quadrilateral is a trapezium or not, and the implications of these configurations on the calculation of the segment's length.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant provides the dimensions of the quadrilateral and asks how to find the length of segment xy.
  • Another participant questions the classification of the shape as a trapezium, noting that AB is not parallel to DC, which affects the problem's constraints.
  • Some participants suggest that if the quadrilateral is not a trapezium, the length of xy may not be unique due to the freedom in shape configuration.
  • There is a request for clarification on whether the original question included a diagram, which could help in understanding the problem better.
  • One participant proposes dividing the quadrilateral into triangles and discusses the use of the cosine rule to find various sides and angles, indicating that the length of xy depends on the angle δ.
  • Another participant mentions that if the quadrilateral is a trapezium, then certain angle relationships apply, which could simplify the calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the classification of the quadrilateral or the implications for calculating the length of xy. Multiple competing views remain regarding the conditions under which the length can be determined.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the shape of the quadrilateral, the dependence on whether it is a trapezium, and the potential for multiple configurations leading to different lengths for segment xy.

asmmanikanda
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IMG_20200808_221717.jpg

AB and DC not parallel line., AB=55,BC=65,DC=76,DA=48
Ax=28,xD=20,By=37,yC=28

How to find length of xy?
 
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Hi asmmanikanda, welcome to MHB!

If I draw your trapezium to scale, I get the following diagram, which looks rather different from yours.\begin{tikzpicture}[scale=1.5,font=\Large]
\path[orange] (137:4.8) coordinate[label=A] (A) -- ++(5.5,0) coordinate[label=B] (B) -- ++(-30:6.5) coordinate[label=below:C] (C) -- (0,0) coordinate[label=below: D] (D);
\path[red] (137:2.0) coordinate[label=left:x] (X) (B) ++(-30:3.7) coordinate[label=right:y] (Y);
\draw[black, ultra thick] (A) -- (B) -- (C) -- (D) -- cycle;
\draw[orange, ultra thick] (X) -- (Y);
\path[green!70!black] (A) -- node[above] {55} (B) -- node[above right] {65} (C) -- node[below] {76} (D) -- node[below left] {48} (A);
\path[purple] (D) -- node[above right] {20} (X) -- node[above right] {28} (A) (C) -- node[below left] {28} (Y) -- node[below left] {37} (B);
\end{tikzpicture}

Can you confirm that this is the intended diagram?
Is there perhaps a typo?
 
Last edited:
Klaas van Aarsen said:
If I draw your trapezium to scale, I get the following diagram, which looks rather different from yours.

Not a trapezium ... OP stated that AB is not parallel to DC.
 
skeeter said:
Not a trapezium ... OP stated that AB is not parallel to DC.

Ah okay... then we have too much freedom I think... and line x-y won't have a unique length.
 
I made the same mistake (thinking trapezoid) ... sometimes one has to read the "fine print"
 
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Ah okay... then we have too much freedom I think... and line x-y won't have a unique length.
OK sir. If trapezium mean how to find the length of xy?
 
Klaas van Aarsen said:
Hi asmmanikanda, welcome to MHB!

If I draw your trapezium to scale, I get the following diagram, which looks rather different from yours.

\begin{tikzpicture}[scale=1.5,font=\Large]
\path[orange] (137:4.8) coordinate[label=A] (A) -- ++(5.5,0) coordinate[label=B] (B) -- ++(-30:6.5) coordinate[label=below:C] (C) -- (0,0) coordinate[label=below: D] (D);
\path[red] (137:2.0) coordinate[label=left:x] (X) (B) ++(-30:3.7) coordinate[label=right:y] (Y);
\draw[black, ultra thick] (A) -- (B) -- (C) -- (D) -- cycle;
\draw[orange, ultra thick] (X) -- (Y);
\path[green!70!black] (A) -- node[above] {55} (B) -- node[above right] {65} (C) -- node[below] {76} (D) -- node[below left] {48} (A);
\path[purple] (D) -- node[above right] {20} (X) -- node[above right] {28} (A) (C) -- node[below left] {28} (Y) -- node[below left] {37} (B);
\end{tikzpicture}

Can you confirm that this is the intended diagram?
Is there perhaps a typo?

Yes sir. I posted rough diagram only sir. Your diagram may be your correct. My questions 1. How to find a length of xy if not trapezium?
2.how to find a length of xy if trapezium?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Can you post the original question here? If it has a diagram in the question, you can take a picture of it and upload it here, so we can get a better idea of what is being asked. :)
 
anemone said:
Can you post the original question here? If it has a diagram in the question, you can take a picture of it and upload it here, so we can get a better idea of what is being asked. :)
Image is in not to scale. 1. How to find length of xy if AB And CD is parallel ?
2.how to find length of xy if AB and CD is not parallel?
 

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  • #10
We can divide the quadrilateral into triangles like this.

\begin{tikzpicture}[scale=0.15,font=\Large,
declare function={
sideFromCos(\cosalpha,\b,\c) = {sqrt((\b)^2 + (\c)^2 - 2*(\b)*(\c)*\cosalpha)};
cosFromSides(\a,\b,\c) = {((\a)^2 + (\b)^2 - (\c)^2) / (2 * (\a) * (\b))};
}
]
\usetikzlibrary{angles,quotes}

\def\angleDelta{80}
\def\AB{55}
\def\BC{65}
\def\CD{76}
\def\AD{48}
\def\AX{28}
\def\DX{20}
\def\BY{37}
\def\CY{28}
\def\AC{sideFromCos(cos(\angleDelta), \AD, \CD)}
\def\CX{sideFromCos(cos(\angleDelta), \DX, \CD)}
\def\angleBeta{acos(cosFromSides(\AB, \BC, \AC))}
\def\angleZeta{acos(cosFromSides(\CD/10, \AC/10, \AD/10))}
\def\angleEta{acos(cosFromSides(\AC/10, \BC/10, \AB/10))}
\def\angleGamma{(\angleZeta+ \angleEta)}
\def\angleAlpha{360-\angleBeta-\angleGamma-\angleDelta}
\def\angleEpsilon{acos(cosFromSides(\CD/10, \CX/10, \DX/10))}

\path[orange] (\angleDelta:\AD) coordinate[label=A] (A) -- ++({\angleAlpha+\angleDelta-180}:\AB) coordinate[label=B] (B) -- (\CD,0) coordinate[label=below:C] (C) -- (0,0) coordinate[label=below: D] (D);
\path[red] (\angleDelta:\DX) coordinate[label=left:X] (X) (C) ++({180-\angleGamma}:\CY) coordinate[label=right:Y] (Y);

\draw[help lines] (C) -- +({180-\angleZeta}:{\AC});
\draw[help lines] (C) -- +({180-\angleEpsilon}:{\CX});

\draw[black, ultra thick] (A) -- (B) -- (C) -- (D) -- cycle;
\draw[orange, ultra thick] (X) -- (Y);
\path[green!70!black] (A) -- node[above] {\AB} (B) -- node[above right] {\BC} (C) -- node[below] {\CD} (D) -- node[below left] {\AD} (A);
\path[purple] (D) -- node[above right] {\DX} (X) -- node[above right] {\AX} (A) (C) -- node[ left ] {\CY} (Y) -- node[ left ] {\BY} (B);

\pic [draw, "$\delta$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.6] {angle = C--D--A};
\pic [draw, "$\beta$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.6] {angle = A--B--C};
\pic [draw, "$\gamma$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.7] {angle = B--C--D};
\pic [draw, "$\zeta$", angle radius=1.5cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = A--C--D};
\pic [draw, "$\eta$", angle radius=1.3cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = B--C--A};
\pic [draw, "$\epsilon$", angle radius=2.2cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = X--C--D};

\end{tikzpicture}

Now we can repeatedly apply the cosine rule to find the various sides and angles.
The general cosine rule is:
$$c^2=a^2+b^2-2ab\cos\alpha \tag 1$$
And we can invert it to find the angle:
$$\alpha=\cos^{-1}\left(\frac{a^2+b^2-c^2}{2ab} \right) \tag 2$$

The length XY depends on the angle $\delta$, and its formula form is rather long, so I'm choosing not to write it out at this time.

If we have the constraint that we have a trapezium, then we have $\beta + \gamma = 180^\circ$ due to so called Z-angles.

\begin{tikzpicture}[scale=0.15,font=\Large,
declare function={
sideFromCos(\cosalpha,\b,\c) = {sqrt((\b)^2 + (\c)^2 - 2*(\b)*(\c)*\cosalpha)};
cosFromSides(\a,\b,\c) = {((\a)^2 + (\b)^2 - (\c)^2) / (2 * (\a) * (\b))};
}
]
\usetikzlibrary{angles,quotes}

\def\angleDelta{137}
\def\AB{55}
\def\BC{65}
\def\CD{76}
\def\AD{48}
\def\AX{28}
\def\DX{20}
\def\BY{37}
\def\CY{28}
\def\AC{sideFromCos(cos(\angleDelta), \AD, \CD)}
\def\CX{sideFromCos(cos(\angleDelta), \DX, \CD)}
\def\angleBeta{acos(cosFromSides(\AB, \BC, \AC))}
\def\angleZeta{acos(cosFromSides(\CD/10, \AC/10, \AD/10))}
\def\angleEta{acos(cosFromSides(\AC/10, \BC/10, \AB/10))}
\def\angleGamma{(\angleZeta+ \angleEta)}
\def\angleAlpha{360-\angleBeta-\angleGamma-\angleDelta}
\def\angleEpsilon{acos(cosFromSides(\CD/10, \CX/10, \DX/10))}

\path[orange] (\angleDelta:\AD) coordinate[label=A] (A) -- ++({\angleAlpha+\angleDelta-180}:\AB) coordinate[label=B] (B) -- (\CD,0) coordinate[label=below:C] (C) -- (0,0) coordinate[label=below: D] (D);
\path[red] (\angleDelta:\DX) coordinate[label=left:X] (X) (C) ++({180-\angleGamma}:\CY) coordinate[label=right:Y] (Y);

\draw[help lines] (C) -- +({180-\angleZeta}:{\AC});
\draw[help lines] (C) -- +({180-\angleEpsilon}:{\CX});

\draw[black, ultra thick] (A) -- (B) -- (C) -- (D) -- cycle;
\draw[orange, ultra thick] (X) -- (Y);
\path[green!70!black] (A) -- node[above] {\AB} (B) -- node[above right] {\BC} (C) -- node[below] {\CD} (D) -- node[below left] {\AD} (A);
\path[purple] (D) -- node[above right] {\DX} (X) -- node[above right] {\AX} (A) (C) -- node[ left ] {\CY} (Y) -- node[ left ] {\BY} (B);

\pic [draw, "$\delta$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.6] {angle = C--D--A};
\pic [draw, "$\beta$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.6] {angle = A--B--C};
\pic [draw, "$\gamma$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.7] {angle = B--C--D};
\pic [draw, "$\zeta$", angle radius=1.5cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = A--C--D};
\pic [draw, "$\eta$", angle radius=1.3cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = B--C--A};
\pic [draw, "$\epsilon$", angle radius=2.2cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = X--C--D};

\end{tikzpicture}
Working through the cosine rules gives us then that $\delta \approx 137^\circ$, $\gamma \approx 30^\circ$, and $XY\approx 66.4$.
 
Last edited:
  • #11
Klaas van Aarsen said:
We can divide the quadrilateral into triangles like this.

\begin{tikzpicture}[scale=0.15,font=\Large,
declare function={
sideFromCos(\cosalpha,\b,\c) = {sqrt((\b)^2 + (\c)^2 - 2*(\b)*(\c)*\cosalpha)};
cosFromSides(\a,\b,\c) = {((\a)^2 + (\b)^2 - (\c)^2) / (2 * (\a) * (\b))};
}
]
\usetikzlibrary{angles,quotes}

\def\angleDelta{80}
\def\AB{55}
\def\BC{65}
\def\CD{76}
\def\AD{48}
\def\AX{28}
\def\DX{20}
\def\BY{37}
\def\CY{28}
\def\AC{sideFromCos(cos(\angleDelta), \AD, \CD)}
\def\CX{sideFromCos(cos(\angleDelta), \DX, \CD)}
\def\angleBeta{acos(cosFromSides(\AB, \BC, \AC))}
\def\angleZeta{acos(cosFromSides(\CD/10, \AC/10, \AD/10))}
\def\angleEta{acos(cosFromSides(\AC/10, \BC/10, \AB/10))}
\def\angleGamma{(\angleZeta+ \angleEta)}
\def\angleAlpha{360-\angleBeta-\angleGamma-\angleDelta}
\def\angleEpsilon{acos(cosFromSides(\CD/10, \CX/10, \DX/10))}

\path[orange] (\angleDelta:\AD) coordinate[label=A] (A) -- ++({\angleAlpha+\angleDelta-180}:\AB) coordinate[label=B] (B) -- (\CD,0) coordinate[label=below:C] (C) -- (0,0) coordinate[label=below: D] (D);
\path[red] (\angleDelta:\DX) coordinate[label=left:X] (X) (C) ++({180-\angleGamma}:\CY) coordinate[label=right:Y] (Y);

\draw[help lines] (C) -- +({180-\angleZeta}:{\AC});
\draw[help lines] (C) -- +({180-\angleEpsilon}:{\CX});

\draw[black, ultra thick] (A) -- (B) -- (C) -- (D) -- cycle;
\draw[orange, ultra thick] (X) -- (Y);
\path[green!70!black] (A) -- node[above] {\AB} (B) -- node[above right] {\BC} (C) -- node[below] {\CD} (D) -- node[below left] {\AD} (A);
\path[purple] (D) -- node[above right] {\DX} (X) -- node[above right] {\AX} (A) (C) -- node[ left ] {\CY} (Y) -- node[ left ] {\BY} (B);

\pic [draw, "$\delta$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.6] {angle = C--D--A};
\pic [draw, "$\beta$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.6] {angle = A--B--C};
\pic [draw, "$\gamma$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.7] {angle = B--C--D};
\pic [draw, "$\zeta$", angle radius=1.5cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = A--C--D};
\pic [draw, "$\eta$", angle radius=1.3cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = B--C--A};
\pic [draw, "$\epsilon$", angle radius=2.2cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = X--C--D};

\end{tikzpicture}

Now we can repeatedly apply the cosine rule to find the various sides and angles.
The general cosine rule is:
$$c^2=a^2+b^2-2ab\cos\alpha \tag 1$$
And we can invert it to find the angle:
$$\alpha=\cos^{-1}\left(\frac{a^2+b^2-c^2}{2ab} \right) \tag 2$$

The length XY depends on the angle $\delta$, and its formula form is rather long, so I'm choosing not to write it out at this time.

If we have the constraint that we have a trapezium, then we have $\beta + \gamma = 180^\circ$ due to so called Z-angles.

\begin{tikzpicture}[scale=0.15,font=\Large,
declare function={
sideFromCos(\cosalpha,\b,\c) = {sqrt((\b)^2 + (\c)^2 - 2*(\b)*(\c)*\cosalpha)};
cosFromSides(\a,\b,\c) = {((\a)^2 + (\b)^2 - (\c)^2) / (2 * (\a) * (\b))};
}
]
\usetikzlibrary{angles,quotes}

\def\angleDelta{137}
\def\AB{55}
\def\BC{65}
\def\CD{76}
\def\AD{48}
\def\AX{28}
\def\DX{20}
\def\BY{37}
\def\CY{28}
\def\AC{sideFromCos(cos(\angleDelta), \AD, \CD)}
\def\CX{sideFromCos(cos(\angleDelta), \DX, \CD)}
\def\angleBeta{acos(cosFromSides(\AB, \BC, \AC))}
\def\angleZeta{acos(cosFromSides(\CD/10, \AC/10, \AD/10))}
\def\angleEta{acos(cosFromSides(\AC/10, \BC/10, \AB/10))}
\def\angleGamma{(\angleZeta+ \angleEta)}
\def\angleAlpha{360-\angleBeta-\angleGamma-\angleDelta}
\def\angleEpsilon{acos(cosFromSides(\CD/10, \CX/10, \DX/10))}

\path[orange] (\angleDelta:\AD) coordinate[label=A] (A) -- ++({\angleAlpha+\angleDelta-180}:\AB) coordinate[label=B] (B) -- (\CD,0) coordinate[label=below:C] (C) -- (0,0) coordinate[label=below: D] (D);
\path[red] (\angleDelta:\DX) coordinate[label=left:X] (X) (C) ++({180-\angleGamma}:\CY) coordinate[label=right:Y] (Y);

\draw[help lines] (C) -- +({180-\angleZeta}:{\AC});
\draw[help lines] (C) -- +({180-\angleEpsilon}:{\CX});

\draw[black, ultra thick] (A) -- (B) -- (C) -- (D) -- cycle;
\draw[orange, ultra thick] (X) -- (Y);
\path[green!70!black] (A) -- node[above] {\AB} (B) -- node[above right] {\BC} (C) -- node[below] {\CD} (D) -- node[below left] {\AD} (A);
\path[purple] (D) -- node[above right] {\DX} (X) -- node[above right] {\AX} (A) (C) -- node[ left ] {\CY} (Y) -- node[ left ] {\BY} (B);

\pic [draw, "$\delta$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.6] {angle = C--D--A};
\pic [draw, "$\beta$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.6] {angle = A--B--C};
\pic [draw, "$\gamma$", angle radius=1cm, angle eccentricity=0.7] {angle = B--C--D};
\pic [draw, "$\zeta$", angle radius=1.5cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = A--C--D};
\pic [draw, "$\eta$", angle radius=1.3cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = B--C--A};
\pic [draw, "$\epsilon$", angle radius=2.2cm, angle eccentricity=1.15] {angle = X--C--D};

\end{tikzpicture}
Working through the cosine rules gives us then that $\delta \approx 137^\circ$, $\gamma \approx 30^\circ$, and $XY\approx 66.4$.
Can you explain step by step till answer pls
 

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