T C
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I want to know about how to get more lift from aircraft wings without increasing engine power and wingspan.
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What are your ideas so far?
T C
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I have said "without increasing wingspan" and you haven't noticed that part.berkeman said:Welcome to the PF.
How about this?
http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/airshow03/duxsept/triplane.jpg
View attachment 220387
I think using Coanda effect can help but don't know about any real example of using that.Greg Bernhardt said:
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Of course I did. That's why I went "up" instead of "out"...T C said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingspan
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How much reading have you been doing at the NASA pages on wing geometry and design for different flight profiles?T C said:
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/geom.html
Mentor
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Increase the angle of attack.T C said:
I'm going to guess you are going to reject my idea too because it violates a requirement you didn't specify. Point being: you need to try harder/do more work here. Explain in more detail the context of the question and describe the research you have already done.
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berkeman said:
That would increase engine power on account of increased drag.
T C said:
I am not sure how you intend to utilized the Coandă effect without a jet of some sort. It doesn't apply to a typical flow over an airfoil.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfoil#Thin_airfoil_theory
That is a good place to start. The references at the bottom of the article point to more advanced sources. The wiki article features "thin" as a strategy for better airfoils. I'm sure there are dozens of other ways too.
That is a good place to start. The references at the bottom of the article point to more advanced sources. The wiki article features "thin" as a strategy for better airfoils. I'm sure there are dozens of other ways too.
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anorlunda said:
Off topic: students hate thin airfoil theory when taught in a classroom.
Dr.D
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russ_watters said:
This works, up to a point, after which the wing stalls. Also, drag increases requiring more engine power.
T C
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How can you say that jets are necessary for Coanda effect?boneh3ad said:
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T C said:
Do you know what the Coandă effect is?
T C
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This wikipedia explanation is enough for me.
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If you have a propeller for your plane's propulsion, what is the source of all of that pressurized air for the wings? Some heavy air compressor added to the aircraft?T C said:
EDIT/ADD, a figure from the wikipedia article you cited...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Buccanneer_blown_wings_diagram_%281%29.svg/375px-Buccanneer_blown_wings_diagram_%281%29.svg.png
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T C
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Pressurised air is used in static application i.e. to get a flow of air. Do you want to mean that if the air flow is created by a blower, then Coanda effect wouldn't occur there?berkeman said:
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Sorry, I've tried a few times, but I'm not able to parse what you wrote there.T C said:
Since in this thread you seem to be asking for ways to increase the lift of a wing, and you have mentioned the Coandă effect, I'd assumed you meant the use of pressurized air to increase lift with blown flaps and similar techniques, as shown on the Buccanner aircraft above, and in this wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blown_flap
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T C said:
First of all, Wikipedia is not always a good source. In particular here, the Coandă effect is specifically related to the tendency of the a jet to cling to a surface and bend with it despite the fact that Wikipedia claims it is the tendency of any fluid to cling to any surface.
The Coandă effect requires a jet, meaning flow over a wing doesn't meet those requirements. Further, if you just want to talk about a fluid as a whole clinging to a surface, that is already how a wing works. That's just a feature of fluids in general.
Science Advisor
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You haven't given any hint about what your current design is, so I will assume that this is just a general question. You also haven't specified what the flight condition is. There is a big difference between subsonic, transonic, and supersonic flight. In subsonic flight, if your wing design and angle of attack are correct, then I don't think there is not much more that can be done just with the wing. You can consider the interplay between the position of the engine and the wing. You can also consider blending the wing with the fuselage so that the body provides lift, but that depends on what type of airplane you are talking about, which you also have not specified. In transonic and supersonic flight, there are things that can be done to reduce separation.
In general, you should investigate the ongoing research efforts at NASA and DARPA to see what they are considering. They do a lot of work on this subject.
In general, you should investigate the ongoing research efforts at NASA and DARPA to see what they are considering. They do a lot of work on this subject.
Scargo
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And what about maneuverability and inverted flight? We need more direction. Does it need to carry passengers or any payload?
Didn't they try using the fuselage as a wing component as in "the flying wing"? Has that design been ruled out as too unstable, at least prior to computers and the B2?
Didn't they try using the fuselage as a wing component as in "the flying wing"? Has that design been ruled out as too unstable, at least prior to computers and the B2?
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The flying wing isn't really used anymore except with perhaps stealth bombers. However, the next big leap in cargo/passenger aircraft design will probably be the blended wing body (BWB), which is a similar concept.
pyroartist
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Fact: There are more flying wings in use today than all commercial aircraft combined. Hang gliders and paragliders are tailless, flying wings and are enjoyed all over the world.
pyroartist
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TC - To increase L/D: for turbulent airfoils try this: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-02/hjap-uss020618.php
or just use a laminar airfoil and very smooth surface finish.
or just use a laminar airfoil and very smooth surface finish.
Tom Kunich
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berkeman said:Nah, you just fly slower...
This the actual point. You want to lift more with the same amount of power and the same wingspan the only way is to increase angle-of-attack and hence drag at any given speed. This is self defeating. At some point the airflow over the wing is limited by speed because the drag is too great for the available power.
Joseph Patrick Kane
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TC, When you say wing span are you only referring to the width of the wing from root to outer wing tip, or you referring to all wing geometry?T C said: