How to integrate second order derivative

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the integration of a second-order derivative, specifically the equation d²x/dt² = k', where k' is a constant. Participants explore various methods to find x as a function of time, including direct integration and alternative approaches involving first derivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests rewriting the second-order derivative as v dv/dx = k' and integrating to find v as a function of x before substituting back to find x as a function of time.
  • Another participant presents a solution x = (1/k)e^(kt) + λ - C but questions its correctness after differentiating it twice, leading to a realization of an error.
  • Some participants argue that integrating d²x/dt² directly is more complex than integrating dv/dt = k first and then integrating the result to find x(t).
  • One participant expresses confusion, suggesting a simpler solution x = 0.5k't² + at + b, indicating a different perspective on the problem.
  • A later reply discusses the integration of the first derivative of a function and suggests that the second derivative can be treated as the first derivative of another function, proposing a method to carry out the integration using the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus (FTC).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the best approach to integrate the second-order derivative. Some favor a two-step process involving first derivatives, while others question whether direct integration is feasible. No consensus is reached on a singular method or solution.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the complexity of integrating second-order derivatives directly and the potential for errors in differentiation. The discussion reflects various assumptions about the methods and the nature of the constants involved in the integration process.

Vibhor
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I would like to know how do we solve d2x/dt2 = k' where k' is a constant i.e the task is to find x as a function of time ?

One way to approach this is to rewrite it as vdv/dx = k' where v=dx/dt and first find find v as a function of x and then rewrite v as dx/dt and then find x as a function of time .

I will present my attempt .

vdv/dx = k'
vdv= k'dx
∫vdv= ∫k'dx
v2 = 2k'x + 2C' where C' is a constant.

v=√(kx+C)
Now,v=dx/dt

dx/√(kx+C) =dt
∫dx/√(kx+C) =∫dt

x = (αt+β)2 ,where α and β are some constants.

Now ,I would like to know how do we solve the equation d2x/dt2 = k' by direct integration.

∫(d2x/dt2)dt = ∫k'dt

How to integrate the left hand side as it is a second order derivative ?
 
Last edited:
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Vibhor said:
x =(1/k)ekt+λ - C
Rhetorical question: Is this result correct?

When you differentiate the above twice with respect to time you should get ##\frac{d^2x(t)}{dt^2} = ke^{kt+\lambda}##. That obviously is not correct. Moral of the story: Always double check your work.

You can arrive at the correct expression using the fact that ##\frac{d^2x(t)}{dt^2} = v\frac{dv}{dx}##. However, this is a much more difficult approach than it is to first integrate ##\frac{dv}{dt} = k## directly and then integrating that result with respect to time to arrive at an expression for x(t). Both of these integrals are very easy.
 
D H said:
Rhetorical question: Is this result correct?

No .

I apologize for the silly mistake .I have edited my post.

D H said:
When you differentiate the above twice with respect to time you should get ##\frac{d^2x(t)}{dt^2} = ke^{kt+\lambda}##. That obviously is not correct. Moral of the story: Always double check your work.

OK .Thanks !

D H said:
You can arrive at the correct expression using the fact that ##\frac{d^2x(t)}{dt^2} = v\frac{dv}{dx}##. However, this is a much more difficult approach than it is to first integrate ##\frac{dv}{dt} = k## directly and then integrating that result with respect to time to arrive at an expression for x(t). Both of these integrals are very easy.

You are right .But I would like to know do we always have to go by this two step process or is it possible to deal with ##\int \frac{d^2x(t)}{dt^2}dt## directly .
 
I am very confused with the question, for me isn't it a simple answer as x=0.5k't^2 + at + b?
 
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Vibhor said:
∫(d2x/dt2)dt = ∫k'dt

How to integrate the left hand side as it is a second order derivative ?

I would like to answer a slightly different question. Suppose you had to integrate the first derivative of a function. How then would you proceed?

Your response would be something along the lines of, "Well of course FTC! The integral of a derivative would be up to some constant, the function itself".

To call something a second derivative is, in this circumstance, superficial since that second derivative can be written as the first derivative of some other function (namely, the first derivative of the original).

With this substitution, carry out your integration using FTC. Now you will have solved for not the original function but for its derivative. Integrate yet again. Remember to keep track of your constants.
 

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