How vector area of a closed surface is zero?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of why the vector area of a closed surface is considered to be zero. Participants explore various mathematical concepts and theorems related to this topic, including multivariate calculus and Stokes' Theorem, while addressing the complexities involved in explaining the concept.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the question may extend beyond first-year calculus, indicating that a deeper understanding of algebra and geometry is necessary.
  • One participant illustrates the concept using the example of a cube, arguing that the vector area sums to zero due to the additive inverses of the areas of complementary surfaces.
  • Another participant proposes that closed surfaces have no boundary, leading to the conclusion that their vector area is zero.
  • Stokes' Theorem is mentioned as a significant theorem that relates to the discussion, with some participants expressing differing views on its relevance and application to the question at hand.
  • A mathematical expression involving the divergence of a vector field is presented, suggesting that the integral over a closed surface yields zero for each component.
  • There is a mention of LCKurtz's method as a valid approach, which is said to follow from the generalized Stokes' Theorem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the best approach to explaining the vector area of a closed surface, with some favoring Stokes' Theorem while others question its applicability. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the question may depend on the definitions used and the mathematical background of the individuals involved. There are indications that the discussion may involve unresolved mathematical steps and varying interpretations of theorems.

Manisha Punia
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how vector area of a closed surface is zero?
 
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Manisha Punia said:
how vector area of a closed surface is zero?
You should explain the context, as well as your mathematical experience. There are varying ways we can answer your question. The best way to answer your question, if I'm understanding it correctly, goes beyond multivariate calculus. What course is this for?
 
Mandelbroth can you explain what you mean by goes goes beyond calculus? That is very much a first year calculus question. It involves other mathematics (ie algebra and geometry) and is difficult to answer in general or for difficult specific examples. That is true throughout calculus. It would be helpful if
Manisha Punia made the question more specific.

Consider the (vector) area of a cube
the sides have area
i
-i
j
-j
k
-k
The area of the cube is the sum of the sides
area=i-i+j-j+k-k=0

Consider the cube with one face removed
area=-i+j-j+k-k=-i

Notice the area of the cube with one face removed is the additive inverse of the area of the removed face.

Call two surfaces whose union is closed complementary.
We are setting up a system of area with desirable properties.
-The area of the union of two surfaces is the sum of the area.
-The areas of complementary surfaces are additive inverses.
-The area of the empty surface is zero

The empty surface is complementary to any closed surface, so any closed surface has area 0.

Another approach is to assign (vector) area to the boundary of a surface. Closed surfaces have no boundary so the boundary has area 0 so the surface has area 0.
 
lurflurf said:
Mandelbroth can you explain what you mean by goes goes beyond calculus? That is very much a first year calculus question.
I did say the best way, right? The best way, in my opinion, is via the generalized Stokes' Theorem.

Then again, I tend to lean on that theorem a lot more than I need to.
 
Stokes' Theorem is a fundamental theorem of calculus. Some might say Stokes' Theorem is the fundamental theorem of calculus. Granted as I said above it involves other mathematics (ie algebra and geometry) and is difficult to show in general or for difficult specific examples. Many calculus books have Stokes' theorem towards the end and/or do little with it. A big problem is that calculus is a hodge podge of random techniques and not a unified subject.
 
How about ##\vec i \cdot \iint_S d\vec S=\iint_S\hat i\cdot d\vec S
=\iiint_V \nabla \cdot \vec i~dV = 0## and similarly for ##\vec j## and ##\vec k##, so all three components are zero.
 
lurflurf said:
Stokes' Theorem is a fundamental theorem of calculus. Some might say Stokes' Theorem is the fundamental theorem of calculus. Granted as I said above it involves other mathematics (ie algebra and geometry) and is difficult to show in general or for difficult specific examples. Many calculus books have Stokes' theorem towards the end and/or do little with it. A big problem is that calculus is a hodge podge of random techniques and not a unified subject.
Not the Stokes' Thoerem I'm talking about. :-p

LCKurtz's method is also good (though it actually follows from the generalized Stokes' Theorem! :biggrin:).
 

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