How was this formula derived? (Electromagnetic)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the formula related to the electric displacement field and capacitors, specifically focusing on the mathematical relationships and concepts involved in electromagnetism. Participants explore various approaches to understanding the derivation, including the roles of charge density, dipoles, and the application of Gauss' law.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe the derivation of the electric displacement field using the equations ## \nabla \cdot E=\frac{\rho_{total}}{\epsilon_o} ## and ## -\nabla \cdot P=\rho_p ##, leading to the definition of ## D=\epsilon_o E+P ##.
  • Others propose starting from the charge density due to point charges and extending this to point dipoles to derive the polarization density ## \vec{P} ## and its relation to the electric field.
  • One participant emphasizes that the electric displacement field ## D ## is a mathematical construct and not a directly measurable quantity, while the electric field ## E ## is considered the real physical parameter.
  • There is mention of using Gauss' law in different forms to relate the electric field, displacement field, and free charge, with some participants providing specific equations and relationships.
  • One participant points out a potential error in the derivation related to the capacitance formula, suggesting that the numerator should involve ## E ## rather than ## D ## or should include a specific factor involving ## K \epsilon_o ##.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various methods and interpretations of the derivation, indicating that multiple competing views remain. There is no consensus on the correctness of the derivations or the specific relationships involved.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the complexity of the derivations, including the dependence on definitions of charge density and the mathematical constructs involved. There are unresolved aspects regarding the application of Gauss' law and the treatment of different types of charge densities.

pbsoftmml
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I recently learned about Electric displacement field and capacitors, and I have a question that how was the formula derived shown below (blue circle part)?
yQeqpaQ.png

Thanks!
 

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These equations come from ## \nabla \cdot E=\frac{\rho_{total}}{\epsilon_o} ## along with ## -\nabla \cdot P=\rho_p ##. Defining ## D=\epsilon_o E+P ##, we can take the divergence of both sides: ## \nabla \cdot D=\epsilon_o \nabla \cdot E+\nabla \cdot P=\rho_{total}-\rho_p=\rho_{free} ##. ## \\ ## Meanwhile, polarization ## P=\epsilon_o \chi E ##, where ## \chi ## is called the dielectric susceptibility, so that ## D=\epsilon_o (1+\chi ) E=\epsilon E=\epsilon_o \epsilon_r E ##. The constant ## K=\epsilon_r =1+\chi ##. We can also write ## P=(K-1)\epsilon_o E ##. ## \\ ## It should be noted that ## D ## is a mathematical construction, and not any real measurable physical quantity. There is no instrument that is able to distinguish polarization charge from free charge. The electric field ## E ## is the real physical parameter here, along with ## P ## which is the polarization (number of dipole moments per unit volume) in the material. ## \\ ## For the case of the parallel plate capacitor, you can use Gauss' law in the form ## \int D \cdot dA=Q_{free}=\sigma_{free}A ## where the Gaussian pillbox has one face in the dielectric material between the plates, and the other face is outside of the capacitor. (Putting it in the conductive plate is also possible, but not good practice, because there is no guarantee that ## D=0 ## in the conductor, just because ## E=0 ## in the conductor). This gives ## K \epsilon_o E A=\sigma_{free}A ##, and ## V=Ed ##, and also ## C=\frac{Q}{V} ##. ## \\ ## Introducing ## D ## can sometimes make the mathematics a little quicker, but the same calculations can always be done working with Gauss' law ## \int E \cdot dA=\frac{Q_{total}}{\epsilon_o} ##, and ## -\nabla \cdot P=\rho_p ##, which gives a Gauss' law for ## P ## in the form ## \int P \cdot dA=-Q_p ##. One important relation that follows from this last result is that the polarization surface charge density ## \sigma_p=P \cdot \hat{n} ##.
 
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pbsoftmml said:
I recently learned about Electric displacement field and capacitors, and I have a question that how was the formula derived shown below (blue circle part)?
View attachment 230188
Thanks!

There is a way to derive this relationship starting from dipoles. First you start with stating the charge density due to point-charge:

##\rho\left(\vec{r}\right)=q\delta^{(3)}\left(\vec{r}-\vec{r_0}\right)##, where ##\delta^{(3)}## is the 3D delta function, ##q## is the charge and ##\vec{r}_0##

is the position of the charge. This formula is self-evident, it is indeed non-zero only at one point, and if you integrate over it you get the actual charge.

Based on this, by considering two closely spaced opposite charges (of same magnitude), you can derive the charge density due to point-electric dipole:

##\rho_p=-\vec{\nabla}.\vec{p}\delta^{(3)}\left(\vec{r}-\vec{r}_p\right)## where ##\vec{p}## is the dipole moment and ##\vec{r}_p##

is the position of the dipole. Next we can introduce the density of the dipoles, i.e. the field that gives the dipole-per-volume:

##\vec{P}=\frac{1}{Vol}\int_{Vol}d^3 r_p\: \vec{p}(\vec{r}_p)\delta^{(3)}\left(\vec{r}-\vec{r}_p\right) ##

where ##Vol## is the volume we are considering. Finally we can choose the separate the charge density into 'free', and charge density bound in dipoles:

##\vec{\nabla}.\varepsilon_0\vec{E}=\rho=\rho_P+\rho_{free}=-\vec{\nabla}.\vec{P}+\rho_{free}##
##\vec{\nabla}.\left(\varepsilon_0\vec{E}+\vec{P}\right)=\rho_{free}##

Where ##\vec{P}## is still the dipole density, which is commonly called polarization. Finally we define field ##\vec{D}=\varepsilon_0\vec{E}+\vec{P}## and we are done. By considering the current due to oscillating point-dipole, you can also introduce ##\vec{P}## into curl-H equation.
 
Charles Link said:
These equations come from ## \nabla \cdot E=\frac{\rho_{total}}{\epsilon_o} ## along with ## -\nabla \cdot P=\rho_p ##. Defining ## D=\epsilon_o E+P ##, we can take the divergence of both sides: ## \nabla \cdot D=\epsilon_o \nabla \cdot E+\nabla \cdot P=\rho_{total}-\rho_p=\rho_{free} ##. ## \\ ## Meanwhile, polarization ## P=\epsilon_o \chi E ##, where ## \chi ## is called the dielectric susceptibility, so that ## D=\epsilon_o (1+\chi ) E=\epsilon E=\epsilon_o \epsilon_r E ##. The constant ## K=\epsilon_r =1+\chi ##. We can also write ## P=(K-1)\epsilon_o E ##. ## \\ ## It should be noted that ## D ## is a mathematical construction, and not any real measurable physical quantity. There is no instrument that is able to distinguish polarization charge from free charge. The electric field ## E ## is the real physical parameter here, along with ## P ## which is the polarization (number of dipole moments per unit volume) in the material. ## \\ ## For the case of the parallel plate capacitor, you can use Gauss' law in the form ## \int D \cdot dA=Q_{free}=\sigma_{free}A ## where the Gaussian pillbox has one face in the dielectric material between the plates, and the other face is outside of the capacitor. (Putting it in the conductive plate is also possible, but not good practice, because there is no guarantee that ## D=0 ## in the conductor, just because ## E=0 ## in the conductor). This gives ## K \epsilon_o E A=\sigma_{free}A ##, and ## V=Ed ##, and also ## C=\frac{Q}{V} ##. ## \\ ## Introducing ## D ## can sometimes make the mathematics a little quicker, but the same calculations can always be done working with Gauss' law ## \int E \cdot dA=\frac{Q_{total}}{\epsilon_o} ##, and ## -\nabla \cdot P=\rho_p ##, which gives a Gauss' law for ## P ## in the form ## \int P \cdot dA=-Q_p ##. One important relation that follows from this last result is that the polarization surface charge density ## \sigma_p=P \cdot \hat{n} ##.
How was the capacitance formula derived then?
 
Cryo said:
There is a way to derive this relationship starting from dipoles. First you start with stating the charge density due to point-charge:

##\rho\left(\vec{r}\right)=q\delta^{(3)}\left(\vec{r}-\vec{r_0}\right)##, where ##\delta^{(3)}## is the 3D delta function, ##q## is the charge and ##\vec{r}_0##

is the position of the charge. This formula is self-evident, it is indeed non-zero only at one point, and if you integrate over it you get the actual charge.

Based on this, by considering two closely spaced opposite charges (of same magnitude), you can derive the charge density due to point-electric dipole:

##\rho_p=-\vec{\nabla}.\vec{p}\delta^{(3)}\left(\vec{r}-\vec{r}_p\right)## where ##\vec{p}## is the dipole moment and ##\vec{r}_p##

is the position of the dipole. Next we can introduce the density of the dipoles, i.e. the field that gives the dipole-per-volume:

##\vec{P}=\frac{1}{Vol}\int_{Vol}d^3 r_p\: \vec{p}(\vec{r}_p)\delta^{(3)}\left(\vec{r}-\vec{r}_p\right) ##

where ##Vol## is the volume we are considering. Finally we can choose the separate the charge density into 'free', and charge density bound in dipoles:

##\vec{\nabla}.\varepsilon_0\vec{E}=\rho=\rho_P+\rho_{free}=-\vec{\nabla}.\vec{P}+\rho_{free}##
##\vec{\nabla}.\left(\varepsilon_0\vec{E}+\vec{P}\right)=\rho_{free}##

Where ##\vec{P}## is still the dipole density, which is commonly called polarization. Finally we define field ##\vec{D}=\varepsilon_0\vec{E}+\vec{P}## and we are done. By considering the current due to oscillating point-dipole, you can also introduce ##\vec{P}## into curl-H equation.
How was the capacitance formula derived then?
 
pbsoftmml said:
How was the capacitance formula derived then?
See paragraph 4 of my post. ## \\ ## Edit: They made a mistake in their last equation of the capacitor=it should be an ## E ## rather than a ## D ## in the numerator, or else a ## D ## in the numerator but no ## K \epsilon_o ## in front.
 
Last edited:
Charles Link said:
See paragraph 4 of my post.
Oh sorry that I did not read through it.
Thank you!
 
pbsoftmml said:
Oh sorry that I did not read through it.
Thank you!
Be sure to see the Edit that I did to post 6.
 
pbsoftmml said:
How was the capacitance formula derived then?

:-) Sorry, I misread your question. I thought you were asking about the relationship between ##\vec{P}## and ##\vec{D}##. Charles Link already did what you were actually asking for.
 

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