Huygens synchronization of two clocks

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the synchronization of two clocks as described in a paper by Portuguese scientists, and whether a similar mathematical model could apply to the behavior of ultra frozen helium atoms when they synchronize their vibrational modes. The scope includes theoretical modeling, quantum behavior, and experimental observations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants discuss a mathematical model for synchronizing clocks and its potential extension to a matrix of clocks.
  • One participant questions the relevance of the synchronization of helium atoms to the clock synchronization model.
  • Another participant describes a phenomenon where atoms transition to a common quantum state, drawing an analogy to synchronized oscillations of balls on a vibrating platform.
  • Some participants clarify that the synchronization of clocks involves energy exchange, while questioning if a similar mechanism could apply to atoms synchronizing their quantum states.
  • There is mention of Bose-Einstein Condensates (BEC) and the idea that atoms in such states are not synchronizing like clocks but are forced into a single state due to quantum constraints.
  • Participants discuss the concept of non-interacting gases and the Gross-Pitaevskii equation as relevant to the theoretical treatment of BECs.
  • One participant expresses a desire for the mathematical models discussed to describe quantum systems, indicating a lack of understanding of the equations involved.
  • Interactions in BECs are noted to be problematic, particularly three-particle interactions, which could lead to classical condensation.
  • There is a mention of experimental issues related to cooling and interactions in BECs, alongside a query about alternative theoretical approaches involving fractal space concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of the clock synchronization model to helium atoms, with some suggesting similarities and others asserting that the phenomena are fundamentally different. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the connections between the two systems.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific definitions of synchronization and quantum states, as well as unresolved mathematical steps in the proposed models.

afcsimoes
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This is the title of a new paper published by two Portuguese scientists (see http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150723/srep11548/full/srep11548.html or http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150723/srep11548/pdf/srep11548.pdf).

They developed a math model of the synchronization of the two clocks and the experimental data has validated the model.

Now they are extending their model. They expect to became to a model for matrix of "clocks".

My question is:
Is it possible that such a model could be used to explain also the behavior of ultra frozen helium atoms, when they synchronize their vibrational mode?
 
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afcsimoes said:
the behavior of ultra frozen helium atoms, when they synchronize their vibrational mode?
Do you have a reference for that?
 
mfb said:
Do you have a reference for that?

I have not. Those effect was presented in a scientific documentary see on TV.
Maybe you will find some useful refs. at
http://physics.aps.org/articles/v5/136
(Viewpoint: Helium Puddles Near Absolute Zero, by Francis M. Gasparini, Department of Physics, University at Buffalo, SUNY, Buffalo, NY 14260, USA
December 3, 2012• Physics 5, 136, - He refers 10 articles)
 
I found the book at google books.

No idea what you mean with "when they synchronize their vibrational mode", however.
 
mfb said:
I found the book at google books.

No idea what you mean with "when they synchronize their vibrational mode", however.

I mean: in the first moment each atom has his own quantum state and after some time all them are at the same quantum state (and then I think they can be described as a single quantum entity).

At the TV documentary a scientist has presented a similar behavior of a set of little balls, all with the same radius and weight, floating at the surface of some liquid at a vat on a vibrational platform. After some time the balls auto rearranged in a lattice or grid pattern and with synchronous and isometric oscillations.

It seams to me that the math model of this system and the math model of the helium atoms could me similar.
 
afcsimoes said:
I mean: in the first moment each atom has his own quantum state and after some time all them are at the same quantum state (and then I think they can be described as a single quantum entity).
This has nothing to do with the effects discussed in the paper you mentioned in post 1.
 
mfb said:
This has nothing to do with the effects discussed in the paper you mentioned in post 1.

The two Huygens clocks synchronize because they exchange very thin energy pulses (sound waves through he shared support).
I want to know if the atoms can "synchronize" their quantum state by the exchange of quanta between them.
It seems to me that both ways may be could be described by some similar math...
 
afcsimoes said:
The two Huygens clocks synchronize because they exchange very thin energy pulses (sound waves through he shared support).
I want to know if the atoms can "synchronize" their quantum state by the exchange of quanta between them.
It seems to me that both ways may be could be described by some similar math...

You're thinking of a Bose-Einstein Condensate (BEC). You can read some of the formalism here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose–Einstein_condensate. The simplified model of Einstein's non-interacting gas is quite a friendly read.
But basically, the atoms aren't "synchronizing" like the clocks do, so much as all being forced into one state by virtue of not having any other options.
 
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  • #10
e.bar.goum said:
non-interacting gas

Please clarify this concept
 
  • #11
afcsimoes said:
Please clarify this concept
It's kind of self-explanatory - a gas whose particles do not interact with each other. Think "ideal gas".
 
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  • #12
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  • #13
e.bar.goum said:
It's a somewhat simplified model, but it does ok to teach the concept. More sophisticated models are discussed further down the wiki page I linked you to.

ETA: the proper thing to do is to use the GPE. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross–Pitaevskii_equation

Thank you by your kind and patient answers. I regret to have not enough knowledge to fully understand all the equations. But I think that I have understand all the concepts involved.
I began this thread with some hope that the math models where the two Portuguese scientists are working, could describe the time evolution of some quantum system, eventually with more or less adaptation.

Thanks, again.
 
  • #14
As what concerns me, you can close this thread.
Thank you and best regards
 
  • #15
Interactions between particles in Bose-Einstein condensates are often problematic - especially three-particle interactions, which can lead to a (classical) condensation to a solid as the temperature is way below the boiling or melting points of the substance.
Cooling happens mainly via the interaction with external things.
 
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  • #16
mfb said:
Interactions between particles in Bose-Einstein condensates are often problematic - especially three-particle interactions, which can lead to a (classical) condensation to a solid as the temperature is way below the boiling or melting points of the substance.
Cooling happens mainly via the interaction with external things.

That is an experimental issue, right?
Theoretical treatment has not those difficulties, I suppose.
Do you know something about the works of Jacky Cresson ( http://jcresson.perso.univ-pau.fr/ ) and others ( e.g. http://dx.doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevLett.93.030403 or 10.1103/PhysRevLett.93.030403 )
Scale calculus and the concept of space having a fractal nature can or not give us exact solutions instead of the probabilistic approach?
 
  • #17
This is an experimental issue, right.
afcsimoes said:
Scale calculus and the concept of space having a fractal nature can or not give us exact solutions instead of the probabilistic approach?
Don't add even more unrelated concepts to the thread please.
 
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  • #18
mfb said:
This is an experimental issue, right.
Don't add even more unrelated concepts to the thread please.
Sorry. Thank you by the warning.
 

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