I have never seen a Grassmann Number

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter the_pulp
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Grassmann
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the representation and properties of Grassmann numbers, exploring their mathematical foundations, definitions, and implications in quantum field theory (QFT). Participants inquire about the existence of Grassmann numbers and their relation to other mathematical constructs, such as Grassmann algebra and the wedge product.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how Grassmann numbers can be represented using known mathematical entities, similar to complex numbers.
  • There is a discussion about the historical context of Grassmann numbers, with one participant noting that they are named after Hermann Grassmann, who introduced these concepts.
  • One participant mentions that Grassmann algebra and the wedge product are relevant constructs but notes that the wedge product's behavior (commuting or anticommuting) depends on the grade of the elements involved.
  • Another participant suggests that Grassmann numbers serve as a mathematical tool for encoding rules in QFT, emphasizing that observables are real numbers rather than Grassmann numbers.
  • It is proposed that Grassmann numbers can be defined as abstract objects that satisfy specific anticommutative properties, drawing an analogy to the introduction of the imaginary unit in complex numbers.
  • Participants discuss the implications of anticommutativity in Grassmann numbers and how it relates to the structure of graded algebras, noting that products of even and odd numbers of anticommuting elements behave differently.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the nature and representation of Grassmann numbers, with no clear consensus reached regarding their foundational aspects or implications in physics. The discussion remains unresolved on several points, particularly concerning the existence and utility of Grassmann numbers.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of defining Grassmann numbers and their properties, noting that the behavior of the wedge product can vary based on the elements involved. The discussion also touches on the technical definitions and conventions used in the context of Grassmann algebra.

the_pulp
Messages
206
Reaction score
9
Is there a way to represent Grassmann Numbers from previously known mathematical entities? Something like when it is said, for "C", that z=x+i*y and i^2=-1 or that z = [a -b; b a] with the usual rules of matrix sum and multiplication?

It is pretty strange to me that it is so hard to find books or pdfs on line about it. has someone ever demonstrated that these entities even exist? Is fermionic math supported over nothing?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Have you ever thought about asking yourself why they are called 'Grassmann' numbers in the first place?
 
Have you ever thought about asking yourself why they are called 'Grassmann' numbers in the first place?

Yes, for 1 second, and I found that there was a guy called grassmann that invented this object. Why are you asking? (Im perceiving sarcasm)

Just to let you know, before posting, I have been reading wikipedia and some books, and there is something called Grassmann Algebra and wedge product, which seems to be the mathematical construction I am looking for. But this wedge product is not exactly anticommuting, In fact it is conmuting or anticommuting depending on the grade of the elements of the Grassmann Algebra we are "wedge multiplying". So, is there any set of objects that, independently of which pair of objects we use, the product anticonmutes?

Thanks!
 
I think it's valid to view Grassmann numbers as simply a convenient mathematical trick for encoding the rules for calculating certain things in QFT. Observables are always real numbers, not Grassmann numbers. Grassmann numbers "exist" in the sense that they can be consistently defined as abstract objects satisfying a certain set of rules. Once you've defined what you mean by an integral over a Grassmann variable, it's possible to represent the rules for calculating observables for processes involving fermions in terms of a path integral over Grassmann-valued fields. But this is just a formal technique for computing some real number.
 
The_Duck said:
Observables are always real numbers
That (plus some other details) is just the definition of the technical term. This fact doesn't have any significance beyond technical convenience, and it's roughly analogous to the fact it's sometimes convenient to compute/manipulate a complex number in terms of its real and imaginary parts, and to a lesser extent analogous to the fact it's occasionally convenient to compute/manipulate vectors and linear transformations in terms of their coordinates with respect to a basis.
 
the_pulp said:
Yes, for 1 second, and I found that there was a guy called grassmann that invented this object. Why are you asking? (Im perceiving sarcasm)

Just to let you know, before posting, I have been reading wikipedia and some books, and there is something called Grassmann Algebra and wedge product, which seems to be the mathematical construction I am looking for. But this wedge product is not exactly anticommuting, In fact it is conmuting or anticommuting depending on the grade of the elements of the Grassmann Algebra we are "wedge multiplying". So, is there any set of objects that, independently of which pair of objects we use, the product anticonmutes?

Thanks!

The Grassmann numbers are precisely the objects that anticommute amongst themselves. Their introduction is analogous to introducing ##i## satisfying ##i^2=-1## to generate complex numbers. We add abstract objects that satisfy ##\theta_i\theta_j = - \theta_j\theta_i ## to ordinary vector spaces to obtain Grassmann algebras.

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grassmann_number#Matrix_representations a representation of Grassmann numbers using matrices is given, but this is rarely used in physics examples.
 
the_pulp said:
there is something called Grassmann Algebra and wedge product, which seems to be the mathematical construction I am looking for. But this wedge product is not exactly anticommuting, In fact it is conmuting or anticommuting depending on the grade of the elements of the Grassmann Algebra we are "wedge multiplying".

Precisely the same happens for Grassmann numbers. If a, b, c anticommute with each other then, necessarily, ab, ac, and bc commute with a,b,c.

More generally, in an arbitrary associative algebra, the product of an even number of mutually anticommuting elements commutes with everything, whereas the products an odd number of mutually anticommuting elements anticommute with each other (but not with the even products). This is why Grassmann numbers form a so-called graded algebra, with complementary even and odd subspaces, such that odd elements anticommute with each other, whereas even elements commute with everything.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 37 ·
2
Replies
37
Views
7K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
6K
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 333 ·
12
Replies
333
Views
20K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
5K