Is It Safe to Touch Metal Inside Your Car if a Transmission Line Falls on It?

[thetaobums]

I mean even something tiny, like the seat-adjuster...would that electrocute you to death?

Is it possible to touch something plastic and still get electrocuted?

 

[phinds]

Given the very high voltage in transmission lines, and their ability to move a LOT of electrons (current), I'd guess that the fact that MOST of the electricity should flow through the outer shell of the car to the ground would NOT stop their being enough stray current to spark through your body from, say, your hand on the gearshift and your arm next to the door, so yeah I'd say you could get fried, although not like what you would if it was just you the transmission line hit.

I'll be interested to see if other have a more knowledgeable take on the question.

 

[thetaobums]

would touching plastic be dangerous too?

 

[PhanthomJay]

First and foremost, stay inside the car. Stepping out could be fatal. If you are forced to get out, and i do mean forced, due to say fire, you've got to jump out clear with both feet without touching the exterior of the car. Not easy. Touching plastic while within the car should be no problem . I'd stay away from touching metal especially if it is an electrical part of the car like a radio. In the extreme example of being forced to exit, you'd probably be ok opening the metal door handle , but this is the last resort.

 

[TurtleMeister]

The body of the car forms somewhat of a Faraday cage. But for that to be true, all metal parts must be electrically connected. If I were in that situation I would not bet my life on it. I would just sit tight until the power lines were turned off and removed. If I must exit then I would do as PhanthomJay described.

You may find this video interesting:

 

[Naty1]

I do not KNOW what would happen, but touching anything unnecessary is NOT safe. There would be no way to tell for example if power was flowing thru tires to the ground or not.

Also, I don't know the range of voltages in transmission lines...but touvhing stuff would NOT be a good way to find out!

Wiki says:

Today, transmission-level voltages are usually considered to be 110 kV and above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission

and I have read discussions about 345,000 volt transmission lines!

Also, for comparison, about 10 to 15 thousand volts are necessary to jump a spark plug gap..[modern transistor ignitions gor much higher]...so transmission line voltages are certainly capable of jumping open space...especially if ANY ionizing is present...

 

[PhanthomJay]

A 100 kV line can jump about a 1 ft air gap to a grounded object or person. More like 3 or 4 feet at 300 kV. There have been instances where careless crane or dump truck operators have made contact (or come in proximity close enough to draw the arc ) with hi voltage lines. Generally speaking, those who remained inside the vehicle have survived; those who have tried to get out sometimes have not.

 

[Danger]

I really have to start wearing my glasses. Up until Turtlemeister's post, I thought that the OP asked about if a transmission line fails on a car. I figured that everyone was teasing him, because since when are transmissions electrically charged?

 

[Emilyjoint]

I've been taught in electrostatics lessons that ALL of the charge is on the outside of a 'faraday cage'...ALL of it, not most of it.
If the car is metal and is connected to the ground I think that is a faraday cage. If it was me i would touch the inside for a bet and I would win.
@Naty... I would hope that current was flowing through tires but is should not if the metal body is connected to the ground.
I think people in aeroplanes do not get a shock when it is hit by lightning.
Also...345,000V transmission lines do not occur 'in discussions'...they are real...some are bigger than this.

 

[krd]

If the transmission line falls on your car, the car will become charged - the current will not flow to the ground because of the tyres.

While you're in the car, you're safe to touch any of the metal etc - because there isn't a circuit between you and the ground. If you get out of the car, and while you're getting out if you touch the metal parts of the car (high enough voltage any part will do), a circuit may be made between you and the ground. And the electricity will flow through you. And you will be cooked.

And I've heard...you will smell like a roast chicken.

Lightening strikes are interesting, as it's a much higher voltage and more power - if you're struck by lightening, it will conduct over the warm air just about your skin, so very few people die from lightning strikes. If it went through you, you'd be burned to a cinder.

 

[Danger]

Lightening strikes are interesting, as it's a much higher voltage and more power

And in their case, the tires are of absolutely no use.

 

[Emilyjoint]

Tires no use !
Full flaps...that's a tennis court!
Don't get the logic, please explain

 

[PhanthomJay]

A car is not a perfect faraday cage. Half of them are made of cheap plastic. But neither a plastic body nor rubber tires may have the insulating properties to withstand 100 kV. I've seen photos of melted tires from powerline contacts.
In a perfect faraday cage, you can touch the inside of the metal cage if standing within , and be just fine at any voltage. In a car, whether it is grounded or not, I would refrain from touching metal, even if it may not cause harm. Be safe!
Regarding lightning , many have been killed , either by direct hit or more often, from the voltage gradient from a nearby strike to ground. That is why if stuck in the open during a lightning storm and shelter ( or a faraday cage ) is not nearby, you must crouch low and click heels together so that ground currents pass thru your feet and not your heart.

 

[krd]

And in their case, the tires are of absolutely no use.

Yes, but. If you're in a car and it's struck by lightning - the arc will just have a few inches to travel to the ground. So, it's pretty safe to be in a car in a lightning storm - but your ears might be ringing. It's interesting how lightning prefers the air over a solid conductor - i think it's the air becoming ionised.

As for lightning striking in the same place twice - there's always a good chance it will. I didn't know the guy, but my father and lots of other people did. A farmer near where I grew up. He was watching a lightning storm out of his bedroom window (they're always fun to watch). He got struck. It burned all the hair off his body, but he was fine otherwise. So...a period later there was another lightning storm...and as he believed the old wives tale, so he went to his bedroom window to watch it - believing he was safe...And of course he was struck again. ...It didn't kill him...but it was the last time he observed lightning storms from his bedroom window...It a site gets struck once, it may have geo/electrical properties that make it likely for a repeat strike.

 

[Danger]

As for lightning striking in the same place twice - there's always a good chance it will.

The CN tower gets struck about 75 times per year. It's something like 25 times for the Empire State building. I don't know what the number is for the Eiffel tower, but I wouldn't want to be leaning against it in a storm.
Emily, I was referring to what Phantom said. I've seen vehicles that were struck, and in several cases the tires exploded and melted. Even in cases where they remain intact, the lightning just jumps the gap between the pumpkin or rims and the ground.
Incidentally, I saw it reported about 40 years ago that the single most common complaint of lightning victims was deafness. The thunder can knock your eardrums half-silly.

 

[PhanthomJay]

Incidentally, I saw it reported about 40 years ago that the single most common complaint of lightning victims was deafness. The thunder can knock your eardrums half-silly.

interesting stat, thanks. S.O.P. In lightning storms when no options available is to crouch low to the ground on balls of feet with heels clicked together, AND block your ears!

 

[pgardn]

Sounds like a lot of people are basically stating that you don't know exactly what the pot diff between diff. objects are in this type of situation so the flow of current can be rather random due to so many variables.

The OP was given some basic strategies based on the most likely situation. Bottom line is you can't see these large pot differences until current flows. And the situation may change after current does flow, you may have a diff set of pot. differences between objects from one moment to the next. You don't wish to be the conductor that allows the pot diff to ground you big bags of conducting saltwater.

Even if roasted chicken smells good...

And I've heard...you will smell like a roast chicken.

 

[Danger]

Sounds like a lot of people are basically stating that you don't know exactly what the pot diff between diff. objects are in this type of situation so the flow of current can be rather random due to so many variables.

The OP was given some basic strategies based on the most likely situation. Bottom line is you can't see these large pot differences until current flows. And the situation may change after current does flow, you may have a diff set of pot. differences between objects from one moment to the next. You don't wish to be the conductor that allows the pot diff to ground you big bags of conducting saltwater.

Even if roasted chicken smells good...

And I've heard...you will smell like a roast chicken.

If you're on that much pot, you probably won't even notice that you've been electrocuted.

 

[pgardn]

If you're on that much pot, you probably won't even notice that you've been electrocuted.

But you would smell good to others in the kitchen. So... its a trade off.

 

[Danger]

But you would smell good to others in the kitchen. So... its a trade off.

While I have nothing against a little friendly cannibalism, the idea of smelling good to my companions is a wee bit disconcerting...

 

[Aero51]

If you have something metal in your hand you can toss it at the parts of the car and see what happens. If you get a spark then you better not touch it!

 

[DaveC426913]

If you have something metal in your hand you can toss it at the parts of the car and see what happens. If you get a spark then you better not touch it!

No. Taking this advice is a good way to get yourself dead.

If you have something metal in your hand and you toss it at parts of the car, most likely nothing will happen, whether or not the part is live with electricity.

A thrown metal object is electrically isolated, so it will not complete a circuit, thus would not show sparks. Thus, it tells you nothing about whether said part is live. You, on the other hand are not necessarily electrically isolated.

 

[Danger]

Aye. The best rule is to sit tight and not touch anything until the lines are disabled.

 

[the_emi_guy]

http://www.safeelectricity.org/inde...g-auto-accidents-involving-downed-power-lines

They mention that if you have to abandon car due to fire, to bunny-hop away from the scene (feet always remaining together).

 

[krd]

would touching plastic be dangerous too?

Plastic is not a good conductor of electricity - this doesn't mean it won't conduct electricity. You've probably noticed at some point plastic holding a static charge. Or have been shocked by a static build up from walking on carpet.

With ordinary electricity cables in your house plastic acts as a good insulator. But for high power transmission lines it does not.

A farmer near where I grew up. A storm knocked down a transmission line into one of his fields. He attempted to pick the fallen line up using a plastic bag to insulate himself - it didn't work out very well.

 

[the_emi_guy]

Plastic is not a good conductor of electricity - this doesn't mean it won't conduct electricity.

And the primary form of conduction is usually creepage. For example if the plastic bag is damp with condensation, or if the steering wheel is slick from the wife's handcream.

Porcelain insulators are essentially perfect insulators (10kV/mm), but their size and shape are designed to provide significant creepage distance along the surface which may become fouled with water, dirt, bird droppings etc. They are glazed with a smooth surface treatment to encourage shedding of water.

 

[krd]

And the primary form of conduction is usually creepage. For example if the plastic bag is damp with condensation, or if the steering wheel is slick from the wife's handcream.

Electricity can tunnel through plastic pretty easily. If you think of a plastic bag like the dielectric in a capacitor - the electricity doesn't have far to go. If you picked up a transmission line with a plastic bag, the polymers in plastic will twist themselves into conductors (of course the plastic will melt and burn), but you'll probably have a pretty good conductor for a few milliseconds. And if they plastic melts to such an extent your hand is in direct contact with the line, you're in serious trouble.

Something like an ethernet cable - in the head, the plastic insulator covering the wires isn't broken - and they're not in direct connection with pins, but the distance is so short it's enough for the electricity to tunnel through.

And it's the same for things like light switches - the oxides that form over many metals are not good conductors(you could class them as insulators), but the layer is so thin the electricity just tunnels through it.

Someone I knew was doing work at an electric substation. One of the engineers was on a ladder, and he dropped a screwdriver. He reached out to grab it as it fell, and his arm touched two exposed points. From his hand to his elbow was carbonised instantaneously. The guy I knew said it smelled like a roast chicken. The engineer survived.

 

[krd]

This one I don't really understand.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...nnah-dies-in-swimming-pool-electrocution.html

The sister of an English footballer. She just died in an accident. She dived into a swimming pool that was live and was electrocuted.

I'm trying to think, how would she be electrocuted?

 

[thetaobums]

As the OP reading all the posts so far, I'm still confused. I have a few more questions:

1) So is it possible to touch nothing but plastic inside the car and still get lethally electrocuted?

2) If such a person does get lethally electrocuted in such a scenario, would death be instantaneous? If it's non-lethal, would it just burn his hand and not damage his neurons or his spinal cord?

3) Just how is it possible to leap out of a car without opening the door? Say you pull the doorwindow down, and then grab the window to assist yourself leaping out. Could you get electrocuted by touching the glass?

4) Could static from the downed transmission line or the Faraday cage-like car interfere/block cell phone radio signals?

5) What does it mean to say there could be a circuit between the car and the ground (asphalt)? Asphalt isn't a metal. If instead you're on a dirt road, then could a circuit still happen?

 

[krd]

As the OP reading all the posts so far, I'm still confused. I have a few more questions:

1) So is it possible to touch nothing but plastic inside the car and still get lethally electrocuted?

Yes.

2) If such a person does get lethally electrocuted in such a scenario, would death be instantaneous? If it's non-lethal, would it just burn his hand and not damage his neurons or his spinal cord?

Instantaneous death would be preferable.

3) Just how is it possible to leap out of a car without opening the door? Say you pull the doorwindow down, and then grab the window to assist yourself leaping out. Could you get electrocuted by touching the glass?

Glass is a pretty conductor, you might have a chance.

4) Could static from the downed transmission line or the Faraday cage-like car interfere/block cell phone radio signals?

So you wouldn't be able to call emergency services ...hmmmm...I wonder.

5) What does it mean to say there could be a circuit between the car and the ground (asphalt)? Asphalt isn't a metal. If instead you're on a dirt road, then could a circuit still happen?

Yes the circuit could still happen. Maybe even more effective on mud road than asphalt.

 

[Danger]

As the OP reading all the posts so far, I'm still confused. I have a few more questions:

1) So is it possible to touch nothing but plastic inside the car and still get lethally electrocuted?

2) If such a person does get lethally electrocuted in such a scenario, would death be instantaneous? If it's non-lethal, would it just burn his hand and not damage his neurons or his spinal cord?

3) Just how is it possible to leap out of a car without opening the door? Say you pull the doorwindow down, and then grab the window to assist yourself leaping out. Could you get electrocuted by touching the glass?

4) Could static from the downed transmission line or the Faraday cage-like car interfere/block cell phone radio signals?

5) What does it mean to say there could be a circuit between the car and the ground (asphalt)? Asphalt isn't a metal. If instead you're on a dirt road, then could a circuit still happen?

I'm just going to address your questions by number, rather than split your post into mutiple quotes.
1) Anything is possible, so stay on the safe side and don't touch plastic either. Some parts are pretty much guaranteed to be safe, such as A/C vents, but why take a chance?
2) A lucky electrocution results in burns to the entry and exit points. A lethal one usually means that the currant went through the heart and shut if off.
3) The idea is not to exit the car without opening the door. The door is not a problem. What you have to do is get out of the car without touching it and the ground at the same time. Open the door fully, then jump as if you'd been sitting on dynamite.
4) An electrical dude will have to answer that one. I've never heard of a static charge being involved in a downed power line situation.
5) Asphalt counts as ground under enough conditions that one can't consider it to be safe. While it can be insulative, I personally wouldn't count upon it. I'll leave that up to more knowledgeable folks to answer

edit: I wasn't ignoring you, Krd... you sneaked in while I was composing.

 

[cosmik debris]

A safety video we show the students here is of a high tension line falling across a car (33kV I think), the tyres on the car melt fairly quickly.

 

[pgardn]

As the OP reading all the posts so far, I'm still confused. I have a few more questions:

1) So is it possible to touch nothing but plastic inside the car and still get lethally electrocuted?

2) If such a person does get lethally electrocuted in such a scenario, would death be instantaneous? If it's non-lethal, would it just burn his hand and not damage his neurons or his spinal cord?

3) Just how is it possible to leap out of a car without opening the door? Say you pull the doorwindow down, and then grab the window to assist yourself leaping out. Could you get electrocuted by touching the glass?

4) Could static from the downed transmission line or the Faraday cage-like car interfere/block cell phone radio signals?

5) What does it mean to say there could be a circuit between the car and the ground (asphalt)? Asphalt isn't a metal. If instead you're on a dirt road, then could a circuit still happen?

I am going to give #2 non lethal scenario consideration:

It is possible the current could flow right over your skin and not into muscle and tissue. Because muscle is composed of a good amount of salty water, its a good conductor. But I have see situations where people have had current flow almost entirely on the outside most likley because their skin was moist and salty and they might have had a decent layer of fat (not a good conductor) under their skin. Its very hard to predict exactly what path the current will take through the body.

I also had a roofer redo my roof after hail. He had a big chunk of his calf missing. It looked like a shark bite, but on closer inspection it was not. (I actually know a kid who got a bite from a bull shark, a bad bite, so I know what they look like). I asked the roofer what had happened before he went to work on my house. He said he was struck by lightning and the doc posited that the current entered through his shoulder, and exited to the roof and to ground through his calf. His shoulder was not badly burned. But his calf got so hot I think it sort of pressure boiled and blew out, at least that's what the doc thought. Did not stop his heart. He was awake during the event. It also did not blow out his eardrums or do nerve damage except to his missing calf meat.

Weird paths to ground, you never know...

 

[DaveC426913]

(I actually know a kid who got a bite from a bull shark, a bad bite, so I know what they look like).

Walking down a beach a few years ago, I encountered a young man carrying a dead fish about 18" long. I asked him what it was, and he told me it was a shark that had tried to eat him.

I was dubious, and it obviously showed on my face, because he turned on his heel to show me his calf, in which was a big, fresh shark bite.

 

[pgardn]

Walking down a beach a few years ago, I encountered a young man carrying a dead fish about 18" long. I asked him what it was, and he told me it was a shark that had tried to eat him.

I was dubious, and it obviously showed on my face, because he turned on his heel to show me his calf, in which was a big, fresh shark bite.

I kayak fish and surf fish quite a bit. I have some bull shark jaws from a big shark. The teeth on the top are triangular and sharp on the entire surface. The bottom teeth are just pointed. So when this shark bites, it holds (forks) with the bottom teeth, and "saws" with the top teeth (knifes). It was so apparent how this kid had been bitten when I matched the jaws up with his wounds, which were quite extensive. The shark had turned on its side to bite his calf and sawed and shook a bit and then let him go. Bull sharks lurk in very shallow water in Texas so they make a lot of contact with humans. I had one go after the fish on my stringer I had caught but I slapped at him with my rod tip and he left my fish alone. I then called it a day.

 

[NascentOxygen]

The shell of a vehicle is only an approximation to a Faraday shield. A few mm of plastic is next to useless as a barrier to electrocution when dealing with tens of thousands of volts. Vehicle tyres incorporate carbon in sufficient quantity as to make the rubber conductive so it leaks away static buildup (a cause for car sickness in some people). Even if the rubber didn't breakdown and become conductive, tens of kV across it would cause sufficient I²R heating to melt the tyre. Tyres incorporate steel wire and reinforcing, so really don't present many cm of insulation at the best of times.

You'll find that at high transmission voltages, soil is not an insulator; fallen lines strike sparks as they sweep over bare ground.

 

[pgardn]

You'll find that at high transmission voltages, soil is not an insulator; fallen lines strike sparks as they sweep over bare ground.

Especially if its wet.

And high winds, lightning and rain... they often accompany each other.

 

[DragonPetter]

If the car is metal and is connected to the ground I think that is a faraday cage. If it was me i would touch the inside for a bet and I would win.

I hope this is a joke. No one should be making bets on safety when there are many unknown variables, no matter how informed someone is. That would be the dunning-kreuger effect in the worst light.

 

[Dale]

If a transmission line falls on a car in the middle of a forest with no one around to see, does it make a spark?