If Up to You, Would You Live in Natural Disaster Prone Area?

[kyphysics]

Florida hurricanes...Oklahoma tornados...These are two areas I never want to live no matter the salary (okay, for $500,000 or more, sure...I'm there!).

I have to imagine it sucks having having your house flooded/blown down every three or so years. Not to mention your loved ones possibly dying in the midst of it.

 

[phinds]

Personally, I wouldn't consider it but there are people whose families have been in a particular area for generations, they grew up there, all there friends are there, and on and on.

 

[JT Smith]

It is up to me. Why isn't it up to you?

 

[phinds]

It is up to me. Why isn't it up to you?

Of course it's a matter of personal choice, but what does that have to do with anything? See post #2 for example.

 

[Hornbein]

I lived in earthquake prone California, Tokyo, and Bali, which also has an active volcano. Recently many were evacuated to camps for months but nothing happened.

 

[topsquark]

I live near Myrtle Beach, SC and couldn't get to this thread last night because Ian knocked out our power and internet. :)

Of course, I volunteer with the Red Cross, so bad stuff doesn't bother me so much because I get to help out afterward.

-Dan

 

[fresh_42]

You cannot move several million people from Houston, over New Orleans down to Miami to Montana. And even if, what about Yellowstone? Better move to Europe. Wait, what about the Phlegraean Fields?

I think such a debate only makes sense in its broader version. How many people on Earth live in vulnerable areas (volcanos, coastlines, tectonic fault lines, hazardous weather phenomena)? 80%? More? There are good reasons for many to take the risks: agriculture, trade, and big cities.

 

[kyphysics]

Feel better for the elderly in Florida, though. Many retirees there, who may not be very mobile.

 

[JT Smith]

Ironically many live in mobile homes.

 

[phinds]

Ironically many live in mobile homes.

Fairly irrelevant since mobile homes are generally not really treated as mobile once they're in place.

 

[kyphysics]

Feel better for the elderly in Florida, though. Many retirees there, who may not be very mobile.

OMG...that should have read "bad"! . . .can't believe I typo'd that.

 

[berkeman]

Of course, I volunteer with the Red Cross, so bad stuff doesn't bother me so much because I get to help out afterward.

Thank you for your service.

 

[berkeman]

It is up to me. Why isn't it up to you?

Fair question. I work in high-tech as an EE in R&D, so one of the main epicenters of employment (pardon the pun) is Silicon Valley. The Hayward Fault runs north-south on the east side of Silicon Valley (where the water lines come down out of the hills). The predicted 7.0 earthquake is overdue by a decade or so, so we do lots of emergency preparedness drills here.

Based on my experiences in those drills with local FD and EMS, I learned a lot about the various things that affect the magnitude of the damage from earthquakes around here (like liquifaction down near the Bay and less severe shaking and damage in the areas that are on bedrock). My wife and I recently made it a point to move from a very high risk area to a nearby region that still keeps me close to Silicon Valley for my work, but puts us on top of bedrock for the next shaker. It will still be ugly when it hits.

 

[Hornbein]

Fair question. I work in high-tech as an EE in R&D, so one of the main epicenters of employment (pardon the pun) is Silicon Valley. The Hayward Fault runs north-south on the east side of Silicon Valley (where the water lines come down out of the hills). The predicted 7.0 earthquake is overdue by a decade or so, so we do lots of emergency preparedness drills here.

Based on my experiences in those drills with local FD and EMS, I learned a lot about the various things that affect the magnitude of the damage from earthquakes around here (like liquifaction down near the Bay and less severe shaking and damage in the areas that are on bedrock). My wife and I recently made it a point to move from a very high risk area to a nearby region that still keeps me close to Silicon Valley for my work, but puts us on top of bedrock for the next shaker. It will still be ugly when it hits.

Yes, I worried about it when I lived there. I lived in Santa Cruz, that had many buildings destroyed. The ones that replaced them were ugly. Too bad.

Tokyo used to have a catastrophe about once a generation. Flood, volcano, war, pestilence, fire. If you were unlucky you might experience three in a lifetime. It was nevertheless the world's most populated city.

 

[pinball1970]

Florida hurricanes...Oklahoma tornados...These are two areas I never want to live no matter the salary (okay, for $500,000 or more, sure...I'm there!).

I have to imagine it sucks having having your house flooded/blown down every three or so years. Not to mention your loved ones possibly dying in the midst of it.

Under no circumstances. What is the point of a high salary if the fruits of your hard work blow away in front of your eyes? With your kids in it?
The worst we get in the UK are floods and I can understand why the generational thing keeps people in higher risk areas and some of them are very beautiful, York for instance.

 

[fresh_42]

The worst we get in the UK are floods and ...

Haggis.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Let's see whether I get this right for the US:

• East and Gulf coasts of the US. Can't live there because of hurricanes.
• West of the Rockies - can't live there because of earthquakes,.
• Midwest - earthquakes again: the New Madrid fault.
• Upper Midwest: Blizzards and Floods.
• Hawaii - Volcanoes.
• West Texas: Rednecks

What is left?

 

[fresh_42]

Let's see whether I get this right for the US:

• East and Gulf coasts of the US. Can't live there because of hurricanes.
• West of the Rockies - can't live there because of earthquakes,.
• Midwest - earthquakes again: the New Madrid fault.
• Upper Midwest: Blizzards and Floods.
• Hawaii - Volcanoes.
• West Texas: Rednecks

What is left?

NM.

 

[topsquark]

Let's see whether I get this right for the US:

• East and Gulf coasts of the US. Can't live there because of hurricanes.
• West of the Rockies - can't live there because of earthquakes,.
• Midwest - earthquakes again: the New Madrid fault.
• Upper Midwest: Blizzards and Floods.
• Hawaii - Volcanoes.
• West Texas: Rednecks

What is left?

Hey! I take offense to that. I come from a long line of distinguished rednecks and we come from PA.

And you forgot about the North East. They have art festivals and antique shops. Very dangerous!

-Dan

 

[Vanadium 50]

NM.

Scorpions.

Tropical Storm Norma also killed a bunch of people there, although truth be told, they weren't really prepared for that.

And you forgot about the North East.

Invasive Canadians.

1938 New England Hurricane. Again, the populace was relatively unprepared for a storm of that intensity that far north.

 

[pinball1970]

NM.

I found the datum that would be the put off/national disaster.

"ranks last in overall performance and quality, with some of the highest dropout rates and lowest math and reading scores."

 

[Algr]

Let's see whether I get this right for the US:

• East and Gulf coasts of the US. Can't live there because of hurricanes.
• West of the Rockies - can't live there because of earthquakes,.
• Midwest - earthquakes again: the New Madrid fault.
• Upper Midwest: Blizzards and Floods.
• Hawaii - Volcanoes.
• West Texas: Rednecks

What is left?

Tornados, supervolcanoes, nuclear waste, meteor strikes, genetically modified spiders, plague, and politics.

 

[jrmichler]

Upper Midwest: Blizzards

Blizzards a natural disaster? Nonsense - blizzards are an excuse to take a day off of work. Or not do something you did not want to do anyway. Or go play in the snow.

 

[Anachronist]

Florida hurricanes...Oklahoma tornados...These are two areas I never want to live no matter the salary (okay, for $500,000 or more, sure...I'm there!).

You forgot earthquakes in California, the potential volcanos waking up in Washington and Oregon, and the whole "tornado alley" (not just Oklahoma).

Practically the whole United States has disasters nowadays due to climate change. Extreme heat in the midwest. Wildfires in the west. Brutal winters that have never before been seen. Widespread flooding. Uninhabitable zones forming on the planet.

COVID-19 was a godsend in a sense, because it changed the business culture to accept more remote work (for jobs that don't involve service, tourism, construction, etc.), freeing up people to live somewhere else and still work.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Practically the whole United States has disasters nowadays due to climate change

How do you blame earthquakes on climate change? And for that matter, pre-20th century disasters.

It's better to look at the data without dragging climate change into it.

 

[JT Smith]

Fairly irrelevant since mobile homes are generally not really treated as mobile once they're in place.

It was a joke.

 

[JT Smith]

The OP question is not very well phrased. What does natural disaster prone mean? I live where there is a constant threat of a devastating earthquake. But while it may come today it also may not come in my lifetime. So is this area prone to natural disasters? Big hurricanes happen more frequently but how often do they blow and wash away your particular town?

All that said there are places where it's obvious that you're taking a risk. But there are lots of other places where the risk is harder to calculate. Whether or not "you" would live there is complicated. There are always many tradeoffs in deciding where you will live.

I live where I do because it's where my sweetheart was living when I got to know her. The reason I moved to this general area in the first place was employment. I'll bet those two things, family and jobs, account for the vast majority of decisions about where we live.

 

[topsquark]

How do you blame earthquakes on climate change? And for that matter, pre-20th century disasters.

It's better to look at the data without dragging climate change into it.

Bill Nye once got asked (by a CNN reporter!) the question "Is global warming the reason the asteroid is coming this way?"

Why not climate change and earthquakes? :)

-Dan

 

[Anachronist]

How do you blame earthquakes on climate change? And for that matter, pre-20th century disasters.

It's better to look at the data without dragging climate change into it.

I did not, as should be abundantly clear if you read my post without selectively quoting it. The earthquakes were in a different paragraph. The climate change related disasters were in a separate paragraph.

My point still stands, that climate change has increased the geographic area in which disasters occur, such as floods, fires, extreme heat, and extreme cold. As you said, look at the data and you have no choice about "dragging climate change into it."

 

[berkeman]

What does natural disaster prone mean?

I think one measure may be to see what types of homeowner insurance policies are available and not available (or extra expensive) in certain areas and sub-areas. It's probably pretty hard to get flood insurance in flood zones, and earthquake insurance in liquifaction zones in earthquake country, etc.

https://www.bankrate.com/insurance/...at-disasters-does-homeowners-insurance-cover/

A homeowners insurance policy typically covers natural disasters caused by explosion, fire, lightning, hail, windstorm, hurricanes, tornadoes, extreme cold, volcanoes and theft. Homeowners insurance usually does not cover earthquakes, floods, tsunamis or nuclear disasters.

Before a natural disaster occurs, it is essential to know what is covered and not covered by your homeowners insurance as there are several policy types available. Learn more about what is covered by homeowners insurance, what is not and what to do if you have experienced a natural disaster.

 

[dlgoff]

Here in Kansas, tornados are possible so I put in a storm shelter:

see: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/my-storm-shelter.995953/

 

[JT Smith]

I think one measure may be to see what types of homeowner insurance policies are available and not available (or extra expensive) in certain areas and sub-areas. It's probably pretty hard to get flood insurance in flood zones, and earthquake insurance in liquifaction zones in earthquake country, etc.

https://www.bankrate.com/insurance/...at-disasters-does-homeowners-insurance-cover/

That's not a bad idea. I was hoping for a list of cities or a map or something.

I did find this: US Natural Hazards Index

 

[Vanadium 50]

Here in Kansas, tornados are possible

Make sure your hose doesn't land on anybody!

...and your little dog too!

 

[fresh_42]

That's not a bad idea. I was hoping for a list of cities or a map or something.

I did find this: US Natural Hazards Index

View attachment 314978

I told you NM. But what the heck happened there in the Zuni reservation?

 

[berkeman]

Make sure your hose doesn't land on anybody!

Or your horse! Or heaven forbid your house!

 

[berkeman]

That's not a bad idea. I was hoping for a list of cities or a map or something.

At the local citizen education forums that I've helped out with, we use several such maps from the USGS. When local residents see the contrast between the liquifaction maps and bedrock maps for the SF Bay Area, their eyes widen significantly...

https://www.usgs.gov/programs/earthquake-hazards/hazards

https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/what-liquefaction

 

[Vanadium 50]

Or your horse! Or heaven forbid your house

And your little horse too!

 

[berkeman]

And your little horse too!

Oh, now you're making fun of my support horse, are you? That's a low blow! (oops, dammit!)

https://www.treehugger.com/thmb/q9A...-3112787-3d3381221eb04c67940978bd0c1dd750.jpg

 

[Vanadium 50]

Or your horse! Or heaven forbid your house!

Well that's a hose of a different color.

 

[jtbell]

Make sure your hose doesn't land on anybody!

It could wrap around their neck!

Well that's a hose of a different color.

View attachment 314988

Around here, hose are blue, not purple.

 

[JT Smith]

At the local citizen education forums that I've helped out with, we use several such maps from the USGS. When local residents see the contrast between the liquifaction maps and bedrock maps for the SF Bay Area, their eyes widen significantly...

https://www.usgs.gov/programs/earthquake-hazards/hazards

https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/what-liquefaction

I must be a moron but I couldn't find those maps by following your links.

That said, I'm not surprised about the effect of the land composition. The epicenter of the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake was about 10 miles from where I was living at the time but my place came through relatively unscathed. I was actually traveling at the time and had left a 5 gallon glass carboy full of homebrewed beer that didn't turn out very well just sitting on a table. Fortunately it stayed put.

Meanwhile 60 miles away in San Francisco in the Marina district there was a much bigger effect due to the soil. I think that part of SF is built on landfill.

 

[berkeman]

I must be a moron but I couldn't find those maps by following your links.

From the first link:

 

[JT Smith]

Yes, I clicked on that link and went a little deeper but so far haven't found maps like you were describing ("liquifaction maps and bedrock maps for the SF Bay Area").

 

[gmax137]

Oh, now you're making fun of my support horse, are you? That's a low blow! (oops, dammit!)

View attachment 314982
https://www.treehugger.com/thmb/q9A...-3112787-3d3381221eb04c67940978bd0c1dd750.jpg

A friend is a captain for a large airline; he told me he had to deal with a passenger who insisted on bringing his miniature support horse onto the airplane.

 

[gleem]

If Up to You, Would You Live in Natural Disaster Prone Area?​

A better question is: If it is up to you why would you not evacuate if you live in a low-lying area, or on a sand bar like Sanibel Island pending a category 4 hurricane? Unlike a tornado, you have days to prepare for a hurricane of course assuming you listen to the radio or TV. No lives should have been lost.

Much of the shrimp fishing fleet was lost but why. It was so easy to put 200 miles between them and Ian.

We make our choice and take our chances.

By proper siting and proper building codes most homes could survive. Actually, a lesson was learned from hurricane Andrew which improved building codes for construction after 1992.

 

[Astronuc]

Florida hurricanes...Oklahoma tornados...These are two areas I never want to live no matter the salary (okay, for $500,000 or more, sure...I'm there!).

I have to imagine it sucks having having your house flooded/blown down every three or so years. Not to mention your loved ones possibly dying in the midst of it.

IF I were to live in such areas, I would be sure to construct a home accordingly. For example, in a hurricane/flood prone area, I'd have heavy (hardwood) or concrete support columns, and a reinforced frame for winds up to 180 mph. Similarly, if I lived in 'tornado alley', I'd build accordingly. I'd also pay attention to national weather.

I listen to people say they never expected the effects of Ian to be so bad! Well, they decided not to be informed or take responsibility. Many didn't prepare for loss of water and electricity, or loss of automobile, loss of road service, . . . Why not?! If one lives along the Atlantic or Gulf Coasts, one should expect a major hurricane, up to Cat 5, at least once in 30 years, and there are plenty of data available. It's not a secret!

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/outreach/history/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_hurricane

From August 29, 2019 - https://spacecoastdaily.com/2019/08...-150-years-of-historical-hurricane-landfalls/

Hurricane Andrew (August 16, 1992 – August 28, 1992) swept across Florida late August 1992, only 30 years and 1 month ago.

 

[vela]

A better question is: If it is up to you why would you not evacuate if you live in a low-lying area, or on a sand bar like Sanibel Island pending a category 4 hurricane? Unlike a tornado, you have days to prepare for a hurricane of course assuming you listen to the radio or TV. No lives should have been lost.

There are all sorts of reasons why some people might stay put and hope for the best. Not everybody has the resources to pick up and leave even with several days' notice. Some of the elderly and people in poor health may not have the physical ability to leave on relatively short notice. Don't make the mistake of thinking just because you can do it, everybody else can.

 

[kyphysics]

There are all sorts of reasons why some people might stay put and hope for the best. Not everybody has the resources to pick up and leave even with several days' notice. Some of the elderly and people in poor health may not have the physical ability to leave on relatively short notice. Don't make the mistake of thinking just because you can do it, everybody else can.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...e-from-florida-ahead-of-hurricane-ian-s-wrath

Private Jets Whisk Wealthy From Florida to Aspen Ahead of Hurricane Ian

• Private jet flights from Tampa region jump 71% ahead of storm
• Jets make 319 flights in 2 days to spots like Aspen, Nantucket

saw this in news . . .It must be nice to be able to hop into a private jet and go to safety in Aspen.

 

[gleem]

There are all sorts of reasons why some people might stay put and hope for the best. Not everybody has the resources to pick up and leave even with several days' notice. Some of the elderly and people in poor health may not have the physical ability to leave on relatively short notice. Don't make the mistake of thinking just because you can do it, everybody else can

Of course, there are those that may not have the resources to move but I did say; if it was up to you. I saw interviews of people that could have but didn't and were lucky to be alive even one who stayed on his boat which was totaled

 

[russ_watters]

Of course, there are those that may not have the resources to move but I did say; if it was up to you. I saw interviews of people that could have but didn't and were lucky to be alive even one who stayed on his boat which was totaled

I saw one too. The answer to the question was something like "we thought about evacuating, but there was a lot of traffic so we decided not to." F'n really?! That's a level of stupid I can't wrap my head around. The storm surge is going to be 16 feet and your one story house is 10 feet above sea level. What's your plan for when you have 6 feet of water in your living room, or if your house ceases to exist, which is likely?

But I also agree the government has a responsibility to help those who are actually unable to leave.

[Edit]
Direct quote: "I'm the stupidest woman. I'm from Florida. I went through Andrew, Irma. I did not know it was going to be a 4...and a tidal surge." Fortunately her bed floated and the water level stopped rising a foot from the ceiling.