Impressive military cleverness

[Leon W Zhang]

Which people's fighting performance is more impressive, Japanese ( what they did in WW II ) or Israeli ( what they did in Israel-Arab wars)? What do you think?

 

[Ratzinger]

Impressing? Japanese committed all kinds of hideous war crimes, I find nothing impressing with that. Also it seems most Japanese have not come to terms with their history.

 

[Pengwuino]

Why are you constantly comparing other nations to Israel?

 

[Thickman]

I don't think two posts could be considered "constanly comparing other nations to Israel". Take it easy Pengwuino.

Leon - What's the point of this question? If your looking for military genuis' of their times look at the Romans, Napoleon et al. The Israelies and the Japanese are standard armies who have done nothing special other than commit war crimes of a hideous nature.

 

[russ_watters]

The Japanese did a lot in WWII and I can't think of anything that was all that impressive. To what are you referring?

 

[quantumcarl]

The Japanese did a lot in WWII and I can't think of anything that was all that impressive. To what are you referring?

What's impressive are the spin-offs of war. ie radar, cool modes of transport, efficency in management/delegation, industry standards, M&Ms etc... these are all spin-offs of war that have shaped a peacefull economy.

I don't think the Japanese initiated many of these spin-offs, nor did Isreal. Its American ingenuity that has made lemonade from the sour lemons of war. GoArmy.

One thing the Japanese did was provide an example of what happens when a 10 megaton atomic bomb or two are dropped on a population. This has further provided the basis for one of the longest peaceful coexistences between world nuclear powers. So far.

If the author of this thread thinks the act of wounding or killing men, women and children and the complete destruction and appropriation of private property are impressive... its not, really. Its juvenile.

 

[Ratzinger]

In some documentary I once learned that the American found out about the jet stream while bombing Japan.
Nothing to do with the original question in this thread, though.

 

[selfAdjoint]

What's impressive are the spin-offs of war. ie radar, cool modes of transport, efficency in management/delegation, industry standards, M&Ms etc... these are all spin-offs of war that have shaped a peacefull economy.

I don't think the Japanese initiated many of these spin-offs, nor did Isreal. Its American ingenuity that has made lemonade from the sour lemons of war. GoArmy.

The Japanese developed a form of radar, but it wasn't as good as the American, just as the American wasn't as good as the British radar. The basic idea of radar, bouncing microwaves off big metal things, was obvious to everybody; scientists had measured the distance of the moon by bouncing EM waves off it in 1919. It was the details that made the Allies radar so successful and the Axis versions so feeble.

And Japanese physicists were working on nuclear fission at war's end. They were developing centrifuges to concentrate U235.

 

[DrDeath]

i don't think there is anything impressive to be found in any form of war. what is impressive about finding different and more efficiant methods of killing people? please if anyone is impressed by war they should not work for any government in any capacity.

war is many things, its horrific, devastating, normally pointless, cruel but never ever is it impressive

 

[Dayle Record]

War is an unfortunate throwback to our feral past, or shall we say our feral nature in regards to acts of aggressive greed, will hopefully evolve out of us.

When viewing past conflicts, say the Japanese in WW2, one cannot use a western moral compass to discuss the Japanese coming to terms with their past. They belonged to an entirely different culture, with entirely different cultural values. We in the west can daydream all we want about our precious values, but our dualism is certainly not the gold standard for a future with the world and all its varied cultures at peace. What we did at Hiroshima and Nagasaki more than likely overshadowed any perceived evil doing on the part of the Japanese. However, as a move, as a ruthless, effective, pragmatic move, the result being the abrupt termination of the Eastern theater of WW2, it was Shibumi, absolute perfection as a terminal play.

War is without fail, proof of our inability to come to terms with the finite resources of this reality. War is without fail, a failure of spirit, a failure of planning, a failure of compassion, a lack of a sustaining social order, lack of respect for the universal situation.

War is not something to glorify. War is never desirable. War is never brilliant.

Pragmatic, peaceful, action and intent, that is where brilliance lies.

 

[Dawguard]

War is not something to glorify. War is never desirable. War is never brilliant.

War is not to be glorified, nor desired, but it can be brilliant in the same way that a game of chess can be brilliant. The act of hoodwinking, decieving and utterly crushing your enemied mught not be good, but it can be done either stupidly or smartly. The stupid ones loose, but the smart ones: their stratigems live through all history. Anyone who has ever studied military tactics could see the genius of certain generals, such as the Greeks when Persia attacked them the first time, or Alexander the Great.
If there is any doubt that war can be brilliant, I encourage you to read The Art Of War by Sun Tzu.

 

[russ_watters]

What we did at Hiroshima and Nagasaki more than likely overshadowed any perceived evil doing on the part of the Japanese.

I find that unlikely since neither of those acts were fundamentally different from any other bombing campaign by any major participant in the war. In addition, I don't think you are considering either the magnitude or the "evilness" of what the Japanese did in China. "The rape of Nanking" alone killed roughly 300,000 people, more than both atomic bombs combined. I seriously doubt most Japanese today would say that act was not as bad as the atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html

Unless, that is, you are simply talking about popular reaction/memory. It is such a dark spot on their history, they probably gloss over it in history books, so many Japanese may not even be aware of what exactly happened there.

 

[Astronuc]

War is without fail, proof of our inability to come to terms with the finite resources of this reality. War is without fail, a failure of spirit, a failure of planning, a failure of compassion, a lack of a sustaining social order, lack of respect for the universal situation.

War is not something to glorify. War is never desirable. War is never brilliant.

Pragmatic, peaceful, action and intent, that is where brilliance lies.

I'll second that.

War is among the greatest failures of humanity!

 

[quantumcarl]

I'll second that.

War is among the greatest failures of humanity!

Thirdly, war has proven to be one of the most impressive failures of mankind.

However, shutting down a dictatorship such as a Nazi regime or Japanese tyranny that infringes upon the lives of millions of innocent pedestrians and civilians is a daunting challenge. It must be met with immediate measures if these civilians, their lives and their contributions to the community are valued by the government the citizens pay taxes to and whom the civilians support with wages and votes.

There are a variety of ways to shut down a tyrannical dictatorship that's bent on ruling the world.. without involving the general population.. especially today with so many technological advances in sound engineering, lighting, computers and embargos and psychology.

To be able to achieve the end of a megalomaniacle tyranny without the bloodshed of thousands of civilians and soldiers alike... would be impressive... by my standards.

 

[selfAdjoint]

There are a variety of ways to shut down a tyrannical dictatorship that's bent on ruling the world.. without involving the general population.. especially today with so many technological advances in sound engineering, lighting, computers and embargos and psychology.

I don't believe it. Convince me.

 

[quantumcarl]

I don't believe it. Convince me.

First off, I don't wantt to give the wrong people any ideas, so my answer will be short.

Second of all, I don't know if you know that Saddam had about 12 people made up to look like him. In fact, its not for sure we have the actual Saddam in custody right now.

Imagine a coup set up by black ops that completely wipes out the cabinet close to a dictatorship and replaces them with look alikes. This is only the tip of the ice burg in psy ops and regime replacement.

In another thread I suggested using shock and awe without the use of bombs and the deaths of civilians and destruction of property. The type of shock and awe I'm talking about utilizes similar techniques used by the FBI and DEA where sound systems are employed to confuse and demoralize accused offenders. Only, in this case, its a matter of covert setup outside of a major centre with specifically designed systems that create enormass turmoil... during which specific targets (presidents, whatever... generals...) are assassinated and replaced with "look alikes". Its not hard to imagine how to pull things like this off. And, to actually do so... would be impressive... but hard to classify as "war".

The old pridefull "charge of the light brigade" methods are totally ineffectual today... especially when you consider the cowardly reprisals people are sinking to with terrorism. Black ops and special operations are the wave of the future when it comes to protecting one's shores from the infringment of a "rogue" nation.

That's how I'd like to see it done.

 

[Astronuc]

There are a variety of ways to shut down a tyrannical dictatorship that's bent on ruling the world.. without involving the general population.. especially today with so many technological advances in sound engineering, lighting, computers and embargos and psychology.

Certainly. One could apply Nancy Reagan's method - Just say NO!

Wars happen because people allow them to happen.

World War II could possibly have been prevented if the allies of the Great War (aka World War I) had not imposed such harsh conditions on Germany and axis powers.

Too many people accept war as 'that's the way it is.'

I will never accept that. In fact, I don't accept the way the world is, and I plan on changing a few things between now and the time I stop breathing. That's one of the duties of a recalcitrant heathen.

 

[quantumcarl]

Certainly. One could apply Nancy Reagan's method - Just say NO!

Wars happen because people allow them to happen.

World War II could possibly have been prevented if the allies of the Great War (aka World War I) had not imposed such harsh conditions on Germany and axis powers.

Too many people accept war as 'that's the way it is.'

I will never accept that. In fact, I don't accept the way the world is, and I plan on changing a few things between now and the time I stop breathing. That's one of the duties of a recalcitrant heathen.

Nancy and anyone else at the wrong end of a gun or bomb or machette will say "NO" with great conviction. I love Nancy as much as anyone, but, has she even spent one evening drinking in a meth-hotel bar in cracktown Baltimore? Who we should say "no" to is the people undermining society with these damn new fandangled and unecessary BS chemicals.

I believe you're right to say the best way to avoid wars is to start at home with one's own and hope it rubs off on neighbouring continents. Its not a far cry. Remember Chaos Theory!

I don't accept war as being the way it is... until there's a tank running over my prize pumpkin. Then I get the feeling there's a war going on. I don't know how all the American Troops in Iraq are dealing with this one. My heart goes out to them and I can only wish them the very best in life... including the Iraqi civilians et al whom the US Troops are rebuilding schools and power plants for... after blowing the **** out of them.

Next time you hear about a horrendous genocide in Rawanda or Uganda or Iraq or the Baltics... send your love... that may or may not help. Same deal if you send troops... it may or may not help. Sending teachers, school supplies and trades education etc..., before there's a chance for genocide to occur, will help the most, I have a feeling. Thank you!