News Why does the U.S. continue to provide military aid to Israel?

[vertices]

It's become a joke and I think all the developed nations recognize that. Have you ever heard of the 'League of Nations'. Yet another fail.

It doesn't matter what the governments say in these meetings, their foreign policy matters and what their citizens say. I can tell you that a lot of Canadians don't care about the UN or "International Laws" and I can say that most Americans don't care either. The Americans aren't surprising considering how much money they fork out. A lot of European countries don't care for it anymore. I'd say NATO is a better option.

The only countries that really 'embrace' the UN idea or International Laws idea are the small useless countries of the world. Normally they embrace it just to take advantage of it. "LOL International Law SAYS SO!". How many criminals has USA given up according to International Law?

I am not going to get drawn into a debate about the UN. As I said, no one here is claiming that we should try to embrace International Law - so no reason to get so hot and bothered over this.

What I am saying is simply this: when whole world* comes together (and sends their delegates to the UN) to call on Israel to commit to universal standards of moral decency - this is meant to be diplomatic slap in the face. This probably won't ever result in any military action but it still has real consequences (which I mentioned in my previous post). No self respecting state would want to wantonly damage its reputation because ultimately, what goes around comes around.

*before people get their knickers in a twist, let me add the qualification, "bar Tuvalu, Nauru, Tuavalu and Micronesia" - as an aside, has anyone ever heard of these countries?

The only countries that really 'embrace' the UN idea or International Laws idea are the small useless countries of the world. Normally they embrace it just to take advantage of it.

like Tuvalu, Nauru, Tuavalu and Micronesia?

 

[estro]

I am primarily talking about East Jerusalem (although land grabs may well be occurring in other WB areas, but I don't know about them)

Take the separation wall - to Israel I'm sure it is seen as a means of security, but to Palestinians it is an apartheid wall which cruelly and ruthlessly snakes through Palestinian land. As an Israeli you cannot see this, but do you have an idea how much damage and distress it causes to ordinary Palestinians? This is an example of what I way saying about both sides being unable to comprehend the misery felt by the other..

Jerusalem is a Jewish capital since ancient times, and will be such forever.

The wall in on our territory [67, you mentioned before?], are you sure you know what you talking about?

The oldest part of the city, the City of David was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making it one of the oldest cities in the world. Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism and has been the spiritual center of the Jewish people since c. 1000 BCE, when David the King of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel, and his son Solomon commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.

The al-Aqsa Mosque was originally a small prayer house built by the Rashidun caliph Umar, but was rebuilt and expanded by the Ummayad caliph Abd al-Malik and finished by his son al-Walid in 705 CE.

You have made proclamation.
I gave you contradictory facts, and asked a question. I'm curiously waiting for your replay.

 

[vertices]

Oh! We've got those here in America also. We call them fences. They are everywhere. I've never quite seen them as cruel or ruthless, just necessary devices. Kind of like having a door on the bathroom, to keep people out while you are pooping.

I'll put it out there, I don't believe in borders in general.. but I'd have no problem if the wall was inside Israel. There is a problem when the wall encroaches on Palestinian territories. It is cruel and ruthless when it encircles neighbourhoods cutting them off from each other, when it forcibly demands the mass eviction of hundreds of families which dare lie in its path and when it uproots ancient olive trees, once a livelihood for the affected Palestinian families. The wall has effectively divided the WB into cantons peppered with checkpoints, which are are unimaginably inhumane (infact my attitude towards Israel only hardened upon witnessing state-sanctioned collective punishment at these checkpoints).

Wait a minute. What does this have to do with financial aid to Israel? Are the walls funded by other countries?

Well, ofcourse. Israel receives ~$billion from the US (goes without saying, a vast sum of money). To my mind, the question is why does the US financially support Israel in the face of all this intransigence, especially when 30,000 children are dying every day of starvation.

 

[zomgwtf]

*before people get their knickers in a twist, let me add the qualification, "bar Tuvalu, Nauru, Tuavalu and Micronesia" - as an aside, has anyone ever heard of these countries?



like Tuvalu, Nauru, Tuavalu and Micronesia?

What are you going on about? I'm seriously debating reporting you for spreading misinformation.

The countries that were against were:
Against: Australia, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau, United States.

The ones that abstained were:
Abstain: Cameroon, Canada, Tonga.

And the ones absent were:
Absent: Belize, Burkina Faso, Chad, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Kiribati, Madagascar, Malawi, Niger, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Sao Tome and Principe, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, United Republic of Tanzania, Vanuatu.

The majority of countries voting 'in favour' are really useless countries. In my mind what Afghanistan has to say about the international stage is completely meaningless. This is true for probably 90% of the countries that go to UN meetings.

Nothing will ever come out of the UN. What have they done that has helped the international community? Nothing. No wars prevented and no wars stopped no mass genocides prevented and nothing done when they occur.

Countries really don't care what UN says about them, it's no such 'slap in the face' to Israel. They ALREADY know that 90% of the Muslim world hates them and some developed nations don't agree with their militant actions, so what? As long as they have the support and back up of various power houses of the world they can continue as they were.

 

[vertices]

zomgwtf:

In favour: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.

Keep yer knickers on. Here is an exercise: count the number of countries above. And count the numbers you listed.

You do realize that you are offending the pretty much the whole world by labelling them as 'useless'?

Your comment frankly scares me - they could have come out of pre-civil rights, Jim Crow America. Every human being in the world, be they black, white, male, female, Muslim, Christian should have their voices heard (I can't believe I am having to spell that out).

You are clearly saying some voices should be repressed. Truly shocking.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Your comment frankly scares me - they could have come out of pre-civil rights, Jim Crow America. Every human being in the world, be they black, white, male, female, Muslim, Christian should have their voices heard (I can't believe I am having to spell that out).

You were literally just minutes ago claiming that Micronesia voicing support for Israel was irrelevant because nobody has ever heard of that country before

 

[estro]

vertices,
I am still waiting for your answer to my last post here...
If you unable to support your proclamations, I'll have conclusions about the worth of your "opinions", considering the report button in the process of reading your future posts.

 

[vertices]

estro: there are somethings I can't argue against with people.

For example, the Qu'ran contains some downright sexist and homophobic passages but it is futile to argue against such things with hardcore Muslims.

Similarly, when you say that Jerusalem historically belongs to Jews. You believe what you believe and I am not going argue with you on a physics forum of all places.

All I will say is that generations of Palestinians have lived in Jerusalem, and these people are NOT responsible for their ancestors' actions (much like the people of European ancestry living in the New World are not responsible for the actions their ancestors). Israel is brutally expelling hundreds of families who can trace their roots in Jerusalem back hundreds of years. To any rational observer this is blatant injustice.

 

[vertices]

You were literally just minutes ago claiming that Micronesia voicing support for Israel was irrelevant because nobody has ever heard of that country before

erm, no. Did you note my language - "as an aside...". It's called 'making an observation'.

I said nothing disparaging or racist about these countries.

 

[estro]

estro: there are somethings I can't argue against with people.

And I know why.

...
Similarly, when you say that Jerusalem historically belongs to Jews. You believe what you believe and I am not going argue with you on a physics forum of all places.

This has nothing to do with believe, but only historical facts.

 

[vertices]

This has nothing to do with believe, but only historical facts.

So let me get this straight - you think it is perfectly okay for the Israeli State to kick hundreds of people out of their homes. Homes they have resided in for generations.

Just checking.

 

[Office_Shredder]

erm, no. Did you note my language - "as an aside...". It's called 'making an observation'.

I said nothing disparaging or racist about these countries.

It's similarly an observation that Afghanistan's opinion means nothing on an international scale

 

[vertices]

It's similarly an observation that Afghanistan's opinion means nothing on an international scale

pray tell. where did I say the opinions of the people residing in Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru and Palau mean nothing.

 

[zomgwtf]

zomgwtf:



Keep yer knickers on. Here is an exercise: count the number of countries above. And count the numbers you listed.

You do realize that you are offending the pretty much the whole world by labelling them as 'useless'?

Your comment frankly scares me - they could have come out of pre-civil rights, Jim Crow America. Every human being in the world, be they black, white, male, female, Muslim, Christian should have their voices heard (I can't believe I am having to spell that out).

You are clearly saying some voices should be repressed. Truly shocking.

It doesn't matter the numbers, it matters the power they hold, first of all.

Second of all the point of me listing the ACTUALLY countries that voted against, abstained, or were absent was to show that your continuous posting of 'the whole world voted for blah blah slap in Israels face ... well except these 3 rather minor countries' was complete misinformation and I will not stand for it, regardless of if it's on topic to my thread or not.

Third of all, I could care less if the 'rest of the world' gets offended because I call their country useless on an international level. They probably know it's true anyways deep down.

Fourth of all, the UN is not about 'all the people of the world voicing their opinion,' it's a ****ing political 'tool' and right now the countries enjoying it the most happen to be rather insiginifcant on the international level.

Fifth of all 'voices' of individuals shouldn't be 'repressed' however many of the governments you have listed as voting 'for' in this huge monumental slap to Israels face repress their people in much worse ways than just saying 'lol shut up'. So don't try and take this 'high moral ground' argument with me on that issue. That's complete bogus.

Face it: The UN is quite useless and powerless when it comes to actually getting stuff done. They talk a lot at their meetings, and whenever it's in a countries favour they make a big huge huff and puff of 'OH WELL THIS AND THAT OF THE UN AND IL AND BLAH BLAH' but no actions. Big waste of money.

 

[vertices]

It doesn't matter the numbers, it matters the power they hold, first of all.

Second of all the point of me listing the ACTUALLY countries that voted against, abstained, or were absent was to show that your continuous posting of 'the whole world voted for blah blah slap in Israels face ... well except these 3 rather minor countries' was complete misinformation and I will not stand for it, regardless of if it's on topic to my thread or not.

Third of all, I could care less if the 'rest of the world' gets offended because I call their country useless on an international level. They probably know it's true anyways deep down.

Fourth of all, the UN is not about 'all the people of the world voicing their opinion,' it's a ****ing political 'tool' and right now the countries enjoying it the most happen to be rather insiginifcant on the international level.

Fifth of all 'voices' of individuals shouldn't be 'repressed' however many of the governments you have listed as voting 'for' in this huge monumental slap to Israels face repress their people in much worse ways than just saying 'lol shut up'. So don't try and take this 'high moral ground' argument with me on that issue. That's complete bogus.

Face it: The UN is quite useless and powerless when it comes to actually getting stuff done. They talk a lot at their meetings, and whenever it's in a countries favour they make a big huge huff and puff of 'OH WELL THIS AND THAT OF THE UN AND IL AND BLAH BLAH' but no actions. Big waste of money.

You are like a broken record aren't you? I have no interest in debating about the UN and how bad it is.

World opinion matters to me. It clearly doesn't to you.

Nothing more to be said.

 

[zomgwtf]

pray tell. where did I say the opinions of the people residing in Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru and Palau mean nothing.

Notice how you're changing it to the opinion of a GOVERNMENT interested in POLITICS to the opinion of individual people? Completely different but none-the-less the opinion of a lot of people from various countries I would consider worthless. Especially on an international scale.

The opinion of people like 'The Taliban' now THAT'S something that's worth listening to cause they can really **** **** up. But opium farmer Moe from Afghanistan? Probably has very little impact on the rest of the world, very little knowledge of the rest of the world, and very little power to change anything.

 

[zomgwtf]

You are like a broken record aren't you? I have no interest in debating about the UN and how bad it is.

World opinion matters to me. It clearly doesn't to you.

Nothing more to be said.

I wonder when it will sink in: The UN is NOT a place for 'individual people to present their world opinions'.

When the UN accomplishes something worthwhile during the rest of its miserable and hopefully short existence send me a PM.

 

[vertices]

Notice how you're changing it to the opinion of a GOVERNMENT interested in POLITICS to the opinion of individual people? Completely different but none-the-less the opinion of a lot of people from various countries I would consider worthless. Especially on an international scale.

The opinion of people like 'The Taliban' now THAT'S something that's worth listening to cause they can really **** **** up. But opium farmer Moe from Afghanistan? Probably has very little impact on the rest of the world, very little knowledge of the rest of the world, and very little power to change anything.

yeah those illiterate opium farmers. Not worthy of anything..

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't really want to respond to anymore posts from you... (nothing personal)

 

[zomgwtf]

yeah those illiterate opium farmers. Not worthy of anything..on the international stage

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't really want to respond to anymore posts from you... (nothing personal)

Fixed and in 99.9% of cases its true. Unless of course they band together and form some unified opinion and take action to get **** done. Completely worthless.

second time I'll refer to the zombieland quote: Nut up or shut up.

 

[Cyrus]

And I know why.



This has nothing to do with believe, but only historical facts.

Estro, your objections are moot: <srug> so what if it was originally built by the Jews? That does not mean they can come and uproot people from their homes and expect said people to take it sitting down. The Jews want that land. Similiarly the arabs want that land. Both have ties to that land for generations, both want it. Clearly, you both can't have it. Learn to share, or be prepared for never ending violence on both sides.

 

[estro]

Estro, your objections are moot: <srug> so what if it was originally built by the Jews? That does not mean they can come and uproot people from their homes and expect said people to take it sitting down. The Jews want that land.

What are you talking about?

 

[Cyrus]

What are you talking about?
And if tomorrow morning I'll want Mecca, it mean Saudia needs to share it with me?

This analogy doesn't make any sense, the Jews (as far as I am aware) have not been living in Mecca for generations.

 

[estro]

So if tomorrow Jews will settle Mecca, we can make a "sharing agreement" after few generations?

[We have theoretical physics, why not having theoretical politics?]

 

[Cyrus]

So if tomorrow Jews will settle Mecca, we can make a "sharing agreement" after few generations?

[We have theoretical physics, why not having theoretical politics?]

I don't understand the point of this hypothetical - I don't do hypotheticals.

 

[vertices]

So if tomorrow Jews will settle Mecca, we can make a "sharing agreement" after few generations?

[We have theoretical physics, why not having theoretical politics?]

If Jews were to settle in Mecca and establish themselves as a community, it would be wrong for the Saudi government to expel them, especially if they've lived there for generations. There is infact a phrase for this in English - it is called ethnic cleansing and is a crime against humanity.

BTW I thought you were with me on Jews and Arabs coexisting - you said it was your dream?

 

[estro]

Many Arabs have Israeli citizenship, and leave peacefully as a community.
Can't understand your point...
Israel never expelled or uprooter no one from their homes...

 

[Cyrus]

Israel never expelled or uprooter no one from their homes...

This is flat out wrong, becuase Israel has uprooted its own people when it had to give back land to the Arabs. Needless to say, the Jews uprooted in the settlement didn't go without making a big stink about it.

 

[vertices]

estro:

consider: http://www.haaretz.com/news/un-u-k-...of-arab-families-from-east-jerusalem-1.281231

 

[vertices]

Many Arabs have Israeli citizenship, and leave peacefully as a community.

Actually, they are discriminated against. Just like Mizrahi Jews in Sderot. Israel clearly has problems within its own borders it needs to deal with first.

 

[estro]

This is flat out wrong, becuase Israel has uprooted its own people when it had to give back land to the Arabs. Needless to say, the Jews uprooted in the settlement didn't go without making a big stink about it.

On this one you right, we made sacrifice to try making peace with them. But we all know the consequences.
---
I'm very tired of discussing this topic...

I can't change your opinion, and I don't condemn you about your opinions, since some things can be understood only by personal experience.

Hopefully one day we and the Palestinians could live in peace, but Jerusalem status will not be negotiated. Jerusalem was built by my ancestor, and Jerusalem will remain our capital city forever, your opinion is irrelevant. (Who want Jerusalem will have to come and take it from my cold bloody hands)

Israel will continue to be honest, patient and gentle towards peaceful civilians (of all religions).
Israel will continue to defend what belongs to the Jewish people, we love peace but we know the art of war, we crashed our enemies in the past we will crash our enemies in the future.

You talk your opinions, but my nation will act according to ours.

I hope we can enjoy discussion on other topics.