In a mass spectrometer what mediates the acceleration?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanisms of acceleration in a mass spectrometer, particularly focusing on the role of the cross product in describing the magnetic force acting on charged particles. Participants explore the philosophical implications of physical laws and the nature of mathematics in relation to physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe the equation R=mv/qB as representing the radius of a charged particle in a magnetic field, with acceleration directed radially inward.
  • Others argue that physics cannot answer "why" the laws are as they are, emphasizing that the cross product is merely a descriptive tool for the magnetic force.
  • One participant expresses a sense of wonder about the ongoing discoveries in physics, suggesting that the effectiveness of the cross product in predictions is somewhat 'magical'.
  • Another participant contends that the cross product was specifically designed for its purpose in physics, referencing a Wikipedia article on the topic.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between mathematics and science, with some participants suggesting that mathematics encompasses a broader set of concepts than those directly applicable to science.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of physical laws and the role of mathematics in science. There is no consensus on whether the cross product is a mere descriptive tool or a specifically designed mathematical construct.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the limitations of current understanding in physics and the potential for undiscovered principles, highlighting the philosophical aspects of scientific inquiry.

mesa
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R=mv/qB describes the radius of a charged particle moving through a static Bf with the acceleration directed radially inward. The cross product is used to calculate the Force that results in this acceleration. Why does the cross product work?
 
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Physics cannot answer "why" the laws of physics are like that. We can just observe them, and describe them. The cross product for the magnetic force is one of those descriptions.
 
mfb said:
Physics cannot answer "why" the laws of physics are like that. We can just observe them, and describe them. The cross product for the magnetic force is one of those descriptions.

That was the answer I was expecting. At least it works although it is unfortunate these interactions have not been figured out yet.
 
mesa said:
That was the answer I was expecting. At least it works although it is unfortunate these interactions have not been figured out yet.

It's nothing to lose any sleep over, afaiac. There will always be 'something more' that we haven't sorted out yet. It just happens that the "cross product" works for describing and predicting a lot of physical processes. You could, perhaps, say that in itself is a bit 'magical' - but the same can be said about the way a lot of Maths applies across the whole of Science.
In any case. What IS Maths??
 
sophiecentaur said:
There will always be 'something more' that we haven't sorted out yet. It just happens that the "cross product" works for describing and predicting a lot of physical processes.

We know so much today and it seems there is still much left to discover, how exciting! I should have started Physics when I was younger... lol
 
sophiecentaur said:
It just happens that the "cross product" works for describing and predicting a lot of physical processes.

I wouldn't say it just happened, I would say that it was specifically designed for that purpose.

There is a paragraph about it in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_product#History
 
ModusPwnd said:
I wouldn't say it just happened, I would say that it was specifically designed for that purpose.

There is a paragraph about it in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_product#History

The cross product is just a part of the whole field of vector manipulations and I would say that it just happens (not "just happened") to be a subset of Maths that describes many Scientific relationships. Not surprisingly, in that Wiki article, the Cross Product appears as a paragraph within a much larger body of information about vectors in general.
Maths is (I'd contend) a bigger set than Science because not all of Maths relates to Science. In a separate Universe, somewhere, with an entirely different Physics, there could be Mathematicians who could be coming up with the same Maths theorems as they do here - but a different set might apply the their 'reality'.
 

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