In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)

[Bilal]

It is funny how you mix the potions of Palestinian and Israeli ...

Palestinian one of the most ancient cultures on the Earth (Jericho was built 10000 years ago) , Jerusalem, Nablus , Yafa , Acca , Gaza ... were built 5000 to 7000 years ago ... while the god created the Jews 3000 years ago.

Palestinian culture is results of all great civilizations in history : Kannan / Phoenicians ,
Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Arab, Christianity, Islam .. and even Jews. While, those Jews settlers are just religious communities came from different nations...

Russian Jews belong to Russian (White)

Iranian Jews belong to Persian race

Ethiopian Jews belong to African race ...

Till now these communities are separated and the only thing unite them is their hate to Palestinian.

Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks

I think you misunderstood my comment. I think his English is very good. Maybe you expect me to be hostile, so you interpret my comments in a manner that fits you misconceptions. I'm just a left-wing Israeli whose tired of preaching to other Israelis while Palestinians are foolishly throwing away every chance for peace this miserable area has.
My Arabic leaves a lot to be desired, they do teach it at school but I didn't study the first years here, so I couldn't pick it up. They added Mahmoud Darwish to the literature curriculum, and I assure you we study plenty of Muslim and Palestinian history - of course everyone interprets differently what they are tought. Palestinians don't teach Hebrew but many of them know it fluently as the result of the occupation - not from the military, but because they've been working in Israel, with Israelis for over 3 decades now.

1. What would you describe as "Palestinian culture"? There are many different groups of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories - there's Christians, Muslims, Druze, Cherkes, Shomronites... there's Palestinians of Egyptian origin, Syrian origin, Lebanese, Bedouins, there's tribes that were brought here by the Romans as slaves, there's Arabs with blue eyes and blonde hair (apparently because of the crusaders) - there's no distinct Palestinian culture - it's a historical mix n' match. If there is a Palestinian identity, it is defined only by the conflicts of the 20th century, which is why any historical right to the land is meaningless. We need to come up with a solution, not undo ancient crimes. Unfortunately, everyone is so busy catching up on their history they've forgotten to look to the future.
2. Israelis too are a historical mix n' match - Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, England, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Persia, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, India, Egypt, Ethioia, Morocco, Tunisia are some of the places we've all been for the past centuries. Those who came from Arab countries are very similar in culture and manners, quite opposite from those from the European diaspora. Israeli culture is a mix of East and West - hard to define almost as much as the Palestinian one. The emigrants who came later blame those who accepted them for trying to mould them into their shape, for trying to erase their culture - just like the Palestinians claim we try to do unto them. I understand all sides, but I think that we should all quit whinning and trying to win sympathy and GET OFF OUR ASSES and do something to make our side less violent. I do my bit, but it's hard to convince people if the other side doesn't do the same. You don't hear about it, but almost every day the security forces foil http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/570886.html to disrupt the peace. You only hear about the one in a hundred that they miss, and then the race for world sympathy is once again on, and every side becomes further entrenched in their concept of "historical justice".
Like our dear friend stoned pointed out, we don't all look the same.
Yes, I don't think I got your point.

 

[Bilal]

These quotes in early 70s, short time before his death. All the settlements he mentioned are built after 1948.

He mentio

Since the quote is a quarter of a century old, he certainly knew precisely nothing about what has happened in the past 25 years when he said it.

 

[Bilal]

This site belongs to Turks-American community. It should be neutral because I read news about Israeli travel companies. If it is anti Israel, how could Israeli companies used it to spread information about them?

((Car Rentals in Israel
Car rental deals in Israel at great prices. Reserve online today.))

Some of which you have already used, such as http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134 .

.

 

[Yonoz]

- First Russian Jews arrived to Palestine as refugees. They run away after Russian claimed that a Jew who murdered their Cesar.

Most Jews who arrived in Palestine were refugees - let's not get into that whole persecution thing okay?

- How you claim Jews lived in Desert land? Betah Teqwa (near Tel Aviv) and Hudaira (in the north) are the most fertile lands in Palestine. Palestine is fertile land since thousands of years.

Read my post again. I said that the early settlers did settle in inhabitable areas (Hadera existed as a khan, a road-stop for quite a while) and only after those centres were established could they start settlements in the uninhabitable areas, such as the swamplands all around Hadera and the northern parts of the Negev Desert. Israel is more than just Hadera and Petah-Tikva, you know.

- I agree that the Jews immigrants brought new trees from Europe which consumes a lot of water; therefore they stole all the water of Syrian Golan heights, 85% of water of WB and water of South Lebanon ….. Moreover, they still need more water!

Oh please...

Native people knew about your new trees centuries ago since Kanaan / Phoenicians and crusaders wars. But they knew that the ecological system and water resources in Palestine are not satisfy for these new types of trees …. So they were not enthusiastic to plant it. While European Jews who still love their origin homeland wanted to convert Palestine into part of green Europe by using their military forces to steal the water resources of Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.

It is not wonderful work to plant trees, which consumes a lot of water and cultivated some deserts areas by stealing the resources of other nations. If you pour the water resources of Golan heights, South Lebanon (Wazani river) , Jordan valley (West Bank and Jordan) into desert, it will convert to beautiful forest … but you will leave millions of people suffering from shortage of water.

:rofl: When does Dr. Evil come in?

During Crusaders wars, European brought these trees, but after few years.. they could not get any economical advantages .. So they asked all Palestinian farmers to retun back and to cultivate their lands so both communities can survive. Of course Israel does not need that, because they can get water by F16 if it is necessary.

((Remember, in 1961, Israel bombed Syrian dam to ban them from using their water, also they send several warnings to Lebanon , because they wanted to provide drinking water for Wazani area from Lebanese river)).

You sure like turning facts around don't you? It wasn't a dam, it was a series of canals on the slopes of the Golan Heights that were meant to divert the water coming from there from reaching the Sea of Galilee, where Israel gets nearly all of its water, to the Yarmuch river, that flows directly into the Jordan river, thus depriving Israel of its water supply. Those semi-built canals still exist today, covered in vegetation, you can barely trace them when looking up at the Golan Heights from the Sea of Galilee.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Yonoz,

I think both of us live in war zone, so it is impossible to convince each other, so let the other (from outside Palestine/Israel) to contribute ...Please do not take my discussion personal against you. I wish we could have peace one day and then we can discuss more peacefully... believe me, I have many Jews/Israeli friends and I admire them, so no need to start to attack our nations. Believe me or not, I care about victims of both sides and I pray for peace always, but I DO believe in my ideas... because it is my daily life under occupation.

Best wishes for you and your family..

Lets the people who live out the conflict ask if they have any questions, then I and Yonoz can show the two sides of the story.

 

[klusener]

Some articles from neutral sources (have no connection with Palestine and Israel) about MEMRI:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html

No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ).

yonoz, I am sorry buddy, as much as you refuse to believe him, he is right in this case.

The President and Founder of MEMRI is Yigal Carmon, who was a colonel in the Israel Defense Forces. If a general from the Palestinian army started a group called Israel media watch, would you accept that it would provide reliable views of both sides of the conflict?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Carmon (neutral source - wikipedia)

 

[Yonoz]

Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do believe he knew more about the situation than you:

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

I believe you're interpreting this in the wrong way. The atmosphere during the war of independence was not like it is today. Israel, less than one day old, with no regular army, was attacked by Arab armies that outnumbered, outtrained and outequiped it. Furthermore, they were aided by the some of the locals - its very existence was in jeopardy, and no one thought about refugees and occupied territories. Since some villages participated in the fighting against it, once they were taken by Jewish forces the inhabitants chose to leave because of their own fears or because they were encouraged to. Those who were peaceful remain on their lands to this day and are full Israeli citizens. Apart from Deir Yassin, there were no acts of unnecessary violence against them - intimidation, perhaps, but not the murders that you accuse of. If anything, this quote shows Ben-Gurion's sensitivity to the problem, but in no way does he recognise that any unnecessary evil was done. There were also Jewish settlements that were evacuated, and sometimes annihilated, but no one even thinks about claiming these places back. One can only imagine what would have happened to them had the Arab armies taken them prior to their evacuation.
Today, Israel is preparing a mass eviction of settlers from the Gaza strip. Entire families, businesses, places of worship, graveyards and homes will be moved, aparently forcefuly, by their own country for the sake of the possibility of peace. Have the Palestinians ever made such a concession? They cannot even accept that those who fought against Israel in the war of independence had no way of coexisting with the Israeli State. Furthermore, they cannot even abandon the idea of violence against civilians.

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.)

Again, you're taking things out of context. Ben-Gurion is talking about Arabs, referring to them in general. He had no knowledge then of the Palestinian problem - he saw, like everyone else, the Palestinians as parts of the entities of Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. Today things are different - there is a genuine Palestinian entity that can choose to live alongside Israel peacefully - but apparently they are not willing to accept the concessions that are needed in order to make that happen.

These quotes display the ability of Ben-Gurion to look at matters from a different perspective, to try and understand the reasons for the hostility against Israel. When did Arab/Palestinian leaders ever display such sincerity, such honesty?

 

[Yonoz]

I do believe in peace

Do you really? Why do you try and defend the use of violence then?

...and I understand the suffering of Jews through centuries, but we should not pay the price of crimes of others.

When were you asked to pay for the crimes of others? You said yourself, Jews should have been allowed to come to Palestine and purchase land. Why did the locals react violently then?

The key of peace is in the hand of Israel:

Quite a simplistic view, don't you think? Do you honestly believe the Palestinians have done everything to allow Peace to finally come to the region? I do not deny Israel has some responsibilities, but the Palestinians have a lot more to accomplish - the dismantling of terrorist organisations for one.

- One democratic State with equal rights for all people ... Everyone free in his religion.

Are you saying Israel should annex the occupied territories? It is a democratic state with equal rights for all people.

- Two States, one Jews State and the other Democratic Palestinian State for all religions...

That's what we're trying to achieve. It is also the official Israeli State policy, implemented in the peace treaties and disengagement plan.

If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews cities who do not like to share State with Palestinian and leave us alone..

Very simplistic. Who decides where these walls will pass? Will they form an international border? You make it seem as if Palestinians have no problem with the separation fence. That is also what a lot of Israelis would want, but have you ever considered the consequences for the Palestinian economy and welfare of ceasing Palestinians from working in Israel?

Every peace lover Jews is welcome in this democratic Sates. Jerusalem is holy city for the three religions and is the spirit of Palestine, so it should be one capital of one democratic State in the Holy Land or capital of Palestinian democratic State represents the three religions... of course Israel can get Western Jerusalem, but no peace without Eastern Jerusalem.

And why is that? Why should we give away the holiest of our sites to a Palestinian state, while Jerusalem is never even mentioned in the Kuran?

Simply, we have no patient anymore to live under military Israeli occupation. Live and leave the others to live …

I wish you'd read that last sentence like I read it... How many suicide bombers live by that line?

 

[Yonoz]

- Palestinian were alliance of UK (the same as the rest of Arab nations) against their Turkish brothers..

There was no Palestinian nation back then. What Palestinian leader was there to sign an alliance with the British then? If the Turks were your brothers, why did you ally against them?

without the Arab revolution in 1917, UK would never occupy Palestine.

What qualifies you to state that as a fact? Have you traveled to a parallel universe in which no Arab revolution occured? I don't think that had the British never taken over Palestine they would not have won the war - and therefor they may have taken the territory in the resulting treaties.

I am against the contribution of Ottoman Empire in 1WW, but it is not business who should win.

That's nice of you.

- I did not say that Jews should not buy lands...

You emphasized the text in the article that said because they did it the world is a less peaceful place.

Also I am not against creating Jews State in any empty area , but I am against any foreign nation invade my country and want to establish another State for one community ignoring the rights of Palestinian nation who live on his land for thousands of years.

The UN division plan called for a Palestinian state, and that was accepted by both the UK and the Jewish leadership - we wanted a Palestinian state. It is the Arab countries and the local Arab leaders that opposed it. Had they accepted it, Palestinians would have had an independent state as early as 1947, with an international Jerusalem - but they were greedy, and couldn't live with the idea of a Jewish nation. It is only natural then, that in the ensuing war Israel should have tried to establish the best borders it should - there are no double standards in war.

Suppose an Islamic or another Arab nation decided to take my country, I am sure the Palestinian will fight back by all their force ...

Well, they ruled the occupied territories for 20 years, and no one fought back - it was much easier to accept their generous weapons and training and kill innocent Israeli civilians in cross-border raids.

it is not war with Jews ... it is rule of nature to protect your homeland from any foreign invaders.

What if those "invaders" see it as their homeland too, and try to establish it by peaceful means? Is it still a rule of nature? "Rules of nature" are usually an excuse for inhumane behaviour. It's time Palestinians rose above their "nature" and start obeying the rules of man - such as the right to live.

Jews are welcomed as citizens … but surely they are not welcomed as military groups who consider their immigration is part of Zionism strategy.

That's quite an oxymoron... Jews are welcome but they are not welcome if they have a strategy of immigration? Do you consider Zionism evil?

 

[Yonoz]

It is funny how you mix the potions of Palestinian and Israeli ...

Yes, the real world can be funny sometimes.

Palestinian one of the most ancient cultures on the Earth (Jericho was built 10000 years ago) , Jerusalem, Nablus , Yafa , Acca , Gaza ... were built 5000 to 7000 years ago ... while the god created the Jews 3000 years ago.

The Palestinians of today are of many different origins. The towns you mentioned were not built by their ancestors, rather they were overtaken many times in the violent history of the middle east - but all that is meaningless to me, I don't think anyone today should be fighting over something that happened thousands of years ago. I do not believe in God, but do you really think Jews were created out of thin air? Rather, the Jewish religion was formed 3000 years ago, out of which emerged Christianity and later Islam. We share the same ancestors, Jews and Palestinians. I could go for hours about ancient history but is it really relevant to the violence of today?

Palestinian culture is results of all great civilizations in history : Kannan / Phoenicians ,
Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Arab, Christianity, Islam .. and even Jews. While, those Jews settlers are just religious communities came from different nations...

Russian Jews belong to Russian (White)

Iranian Jews belong to Persian race

Ethiopian Jews belong to African race ...

Apparently you are unfamiliar with Jewish history. Like I stated before, it's useless to start discussing ancient history but trust me when I say Jews didn't just appear one day in all these different countries and decide to take Palestine out of pure evil. Or maybe you won't believe that...

Till now these communities are separated and the only thing unite them is their hate to Palestinian.

Right... We're just plain evil and our sole purpose is to create misery for the wonderful Palestinians - is that your idea of working towards peace? Spreading hateful lies?

 

[Yonoz]

This site belongs to Turks-American community. It should be neutral because I read news about Israeli travel companies. If it is anti Israel, how could Israeli companies used it to spread information about them?

Read my post again, I was referring to the article, which is one big puddle of venom.

 

[Yonoz]

Please do not take my discussion personal against you.

You mean this is not personal?

You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.
...
Please keep the level of the discussion acceptable by providing trusted sources by both sides.

I wish we could have peace one day and then we can discuss more peacefully...

We can, and are doing so right now.

believe me, I have many Jews/Israeli friends and I admire them,

Where have I heard that before?

so no need to start to attack our nations.

I never attacked your nation. My point has always been that Palestinians should do more on their side to achieve peace in the region. If you had used your skills to promote non-violence in Palestinian society rather than try and smear Israel as much as you possibly can, I would be very happy. Yet you constantly channel your energies in a negative fashion, that harms both sides.

Believe me or not, I care about victims of both sides and I pray for peace always, but I DO believe in my ideas...

Have you considered the possibility that your ideas are an obstacle to the peace you pray for? Peace needs more than prayers, I'm afraid. It requires brave actions, like protesting against your own government, like being out there in the zones of conflict and making sure your side does as little harm as possible. It requires patience as your own people accuse you of treason, only because you try and do what's best for them. It requires strength to keep your faith as people around you die because of senseless violence that the other side refuses to abandon. But most of all, it requires compassion, forgiveness and empathy.

because it is my daily life under occupation.

The occupation takes its toll on all of us, Bilal. The only way to end it is to channel the negative energies away from the perpetual circle of violence. Accusations and excuses will only increase it more.

Best wishes for you and your family..

Same to you and your family, and keep safe.

 

[Yonoz]

Some articles from neutral sources (have no connection with Palestine and Israel) about MEMRI:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html



yonoz, I am sorry buddy, as much as you refuse to believe him, he is right in this case.

The President and Founder of MEMRI is Yigal Carmon, who was a colonel in the Israel Defense Forces. If a general from the Palestinian army started a group called Israel media watch, would you accept that it would provide reliable views of both sides of the conflict?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Carmon (neutral source - wikipedia)

I completely agree that MEMRI has some agenda behind it - why would anyone with no agenda start an organization like that? But so do newspapers and news channels, and users on internet forums. Even I have an agenda, and I have no problem stating it.
Which is also why I previously said with regards to MEMRI, you have to separate fact from opinion. There's no substitute source for translated Arab media, and like it or not, a lot of the content on Arab media (especially in, but not limited to, the states of Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia) incites against Israel and the US. The guys in MEMRI may put things in a negative light, but they don't make facts up. Those cartoons, quotations and video clips are real ones from real, mainstream Arab media. I can say this whole-heartedly because those kind of things have crossed my life's path in the past.
MEMRI also gave me the chance to witness positive things, such as the discussion of the previously-taboo women's rights in Saudi-Arabia and education on the firing of guns in celebrations in Jordan.

 

[klusener]

Of course, but there are things like that in every country by which I mean cartoons or articles critical of U.S. support of Israel, I am just wondering why they don't also translate the positive steps or show the positive cartoons in Arab newspapers..

 

[Yonoz]

Of course, but there are things like that in every country by which I mean cartoons or articles critical of U.S. support of Israel, I am just wondering why they don't also translate the positive steps or show the positive cartoons in Arab newspapers..

There is a difference between ciriticism and incitement. You don't see any palestinian leader eating Israeli babies in mainstream Jewish or US newspapers.
Reform in the Arab and Muslim World
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=58151

 

[Yonoz]

Here's an interesting piece: http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=58051

 

[Bilal]

I am sorry that you twist the facts again . I tried to find common things and peaceful discusion, but it seems useless with Zionist. … I am not surprise also, because even if we give all ME to Zionists and leave to China , they will ask us to pay for ‘’renting’’ our countries for 7000 years!

I believe you're interpreting this in the wrong way. The atmosphere during the war of independence was not like it is today. Israel, less than one day old, with no regular army, was attacked by Arab armies that outnumbered, outtrained and outequiped it. Furthermore, they were aided by the some of the locals - its very existence was in jeopardy, and no one thought about refugees and occupied territories. Since some villages participated in the fighting against it, once they were taken by Jewish forces the inhabitants chose to leave because of their own fears or because they were encouraged to. Those who were peaceful remain on their lands to this day and are full Israeli citizens. Apart from Deir Yassin, there were no acts of unnecessary violence against them - intimidation, perhaps, but not the murders that you accuse of. If anything, this quote shows Ben-Gurion's sensitivity to the problem, but in no way does he recognise that any unnecessary evil was done. There were also Jewish settlements that were evacuated, and sometimes annihilated, but no one even thinks about claiming these places back. One can only imagine what would have happened to them had the Arab armies taken them prior to their evacuation.))

It is really funny how you changed the facts on ground.

-Palestinian were fight for independence of their country from UK and illegal militants Zionists immigrants. Israel has no moral justification to be created by destruction of other nation. In fact you can not built your civilization on the bodies of kids of others. Zionists are similar to crusaders they will not be able to survive in peace because their ideology is based on horrible mixing between religious myth and racism.

- You blame few thousands of Arabs for fighting with Palestine? Please read what behind the lines and be innocent to show the truth :

1) Arab nations involved in the war after the barbaric massacre of Dair Yassin by the Zionists , who murdered all the people of this town and raped many girls in public during military marsh in W. Jerusalem.

2) More than 95% of Zionist are from another countries. They joined the war to kill the Palestinian, so why you want the rest of the Arab watching, while all the Zionist communities in the world declared war to destroy Palestine and to establish their ''State '' based on religious myth? Could you blame the American for their war to save Europe from NAZI? or to fight the Japanese?

Here is how the Zionists started this war against Palestinian civilians which forced the people to fight back. Palestinian decide to fight back after 3 weeks of organised attacks and masscres against Plaetsinian civilians by Zionists murders (Lihi, Etzel and Haganah):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_war
((Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.
On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces.))

Here why the Arab nations decide to help the Palestinian against those invaders:

((Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict.))
- Here is comprative study between the forces of both sides. This show the large gaop between the Zionist forces and Arab forces:

In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.))

((

Today, Israel is preparing a mass eviction of settlers from the Gaza strip. Entire families, businesses, places of worship, graveyards and homes will be moved, aparently forcefuly, by their own country for the sake of the possibility of peace. Have the Palestinians ever made such a concession? They cannot even accept that those who fought against Israel in the war of independence had no way of coexisting with the Israeli State. Furthermore, they cannot even abandon the idea of violence against civilians.

Settlers are criminals not civilians. Also those settlers are less than 4% of the settlers of West Bank and Gaza. Building settlements in the occupied lands of Palestine and Syria is wrong message for ME nations. It is proof that Zionist will not hesitate to expand the borders of their ‘’religious –biblical-State’’ which based all on myth. May be the crusaders have more reasons to occupy Palestine than Zionist.

((

Again, you're taking things out of context. Ben-Gurion is talking about Arabs, referring to them in general. He had no knowledge then of the Palestinian problem - he saw, like everyone else, the Palestinians as parts of the entities of Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. Today things are different - there is a genuine Palestinian entity that can choose to live alongside Israel peacefully - but apparently they are not willing to accept the concessions that are needed in order to make that happen.

These quotes display the ability of Ben-Gurion to look at matters from a different perspective, to try and understand the reasons for the hostility against Israel. When did Arab/Palestinian leaders ever display such sincerity, such honesty?

Ben –Gurion mentioned the reality. He even named the Jews towns that built in the same place of Palestinian cities. What he said is the truth , and early Zionist did not feel shame to do that. They came from other countries to destroy another nation and to steal its homeland. It is funny that current Zionist wants to provide moral cover to their ideology which considered as form of racism by UN from 1975 till 1991 (thanks to Bush the father who canceled this resolution).

 

[Bilal]

Do you really? Why do you try and defend the use of violence then?
When were you asked to pay for the crimes of others? You said yourself, Jews should have been allowed to come to Palestine and purchase land. Why did the locals react violently then?

Sorry I did not know that Mama Teresa and Mandela were the leaders of Israel! You blame the Palestinian for using violence? May be you kidding!

Man, every Israeli town is built over Lake of blood of Palestinian civilians. Check the history of every piece in what called Israel you will find behind it horrible pains and suffering. Who hear your comments will think that Israel is established by peace. Since the first Zionist put his feet on Palestinian land in 1917, and this part of the world did not live in peace. You feel pleasure to treat the other nations as slaves.


Arab are the most tolerated nations with Jews, till you surprise us in the beginning of 20th century. You destroyed the relations for many coming generations. You stole by force and terrorism another country and you blame the people for fighting back to protect their lives?

Quite a simplistic view, don't you think? Do you honestly believe the Palestinians have done everything to allow Peace to finally come to the region? I do not deny Israel has some responsibilities, but the Palestinians have a lot more to accomplish - the dismantling of terrorist organisations for one.

If there is occupation then we call it resistance not terrorists. The key of peace is in the hand of Zionist. From 1967 till 1993, there were no suicide bombers, no military attacks in Israel …, but what the Zionist offer? They even rejected to recognize the existence of Palestinian people.

Are you saying Israel should annex the occupied territories? It is a democratic state with equal rights for all people.

That's what we're trying to achieve. It is also the official Israeli State policy, implemented in the peace treaties and disengagement plan.[/Yonoz]

Of course you want to annex the occupied land but you do not want the people who live there for thousands of years, because they are not Jews. Annexing West Bank and Gaza means no superiority of Jews over others, this means you should:

-Cancel the racist law of return, which allowed ONLY person with Jews mother or those convert to Judiasm and accepted by Rabbi to return.

- No need to call it Jews State, because if we call USA as Christian State, then it will not be real democracy. Simply everyone free in his/her religion, and the State should be for all people.

In other words, you should declare the ‘’end of Zionism’’ or to reform it to be more peaceful and accept the others as human.

Very simplistic. Who decides where these walls will pass? Will they form an international border? You make it seem as if Palestinians have no problem with the separation fence. That is also what a lot of Israelis would want, but have you ever considered the consequences for the Palestinian economy and welfare of ceasing Palestinians from working in Israel?
And why is that? Why should we give away the holiest of our sites to a Palestinian state, while Jerusalem is never even mentioned in the Kuran??

- What called separation wall is NAZI tactic? You surround the Palestinian towns from all sides by wall and you disconnected the families because you want to secure the life of Jews settlers who live illegally in WB and Gaza.

- We are not happy to live under occupation, and human do not survive only by bread. Our freedom and dignity is the most important. Your claim that the wall on international border is misleading... this wall converts the Palestinian towns into large jails and stole 85% of water resources and 70% of the best agricultural lands.

-Please build the china great wall on borders and leave us alone.


Here is map and pictures of this wall:

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en


Is this map and pictures of wall or NAZI concentration camps?

http://www.4blacksheep.com/photos/separation_wall/

I wish you'd read that last sentence like I read it... How many suicide bombers live by that line?

Do you mean that suicide bombers are the root of the problems?

How many suicide bombers and attacks inside Israel from 1967 till 1994?

There are ''Zero attacks'' by suicide bombers or against Israeli civilians...

What Israel offer within this period:

- Massacre of (the day of Land) against the non Jews Israeli in 1976.
- Massacre of Hebron University, 1984 by Jews settlers.
- Massacre of Nahlin , 1988.
-Massacre of Eion Kara or Rishon Litzion against Palestinian workers on 15/05/1990.
- 4000 Palestinian victims in the fisrt Palestinian peaceful uprising 1987-1993.
-Destruction of thousands of houses.
-Building 200 settlements and stealing 60% of lands and 85% of water resources.

This means suicide bombers are not the source of the problem!

 

[Bilal]

There was no Palestinian nation back then. What Palestinian leader was there to sign an alliance with the British then? If the Turks were your brothers, why did you ally against them?

I did not hear that god sent nations from sky!

Every community of people live on common land can create new nation. We were called (Shami people) since thousands of years– Syrian, Palestinian, Jordanian and Lebanese … after colonist era, this nation divided into four nations.

If people of my town decided to create new nation called (Nabulsian nation-Nablus city) this is their rights and this is not means they came suddenly from sky!

If people of Californian decided to get independence to and to call themselves Californian nation … then they create new geopolitical constitution but without changing the demography.
People exist since thousands of years in their homeland, but the political position change, and thus we can hear new political names as indication of major geopolitical changes ….

What called Israeli nation is unique phenomenon:
- They were religious communities who have no common history or race since more than 2000 years.
- They have no common land, because they are parts from different nations. For example, Iraqi Jews have history in Iraq; he has the same color and the same culture. French Jews had history in France and he has the color …
- These different communities are united to make new nation and to steal the homeland of other nation who live there for thousands of years without any moral or logical justification, just based on jungle laws.

we wanted a Palestinian state. It is the Arab countries and the local Arab leaders that opposed it. Had they accepted it, Palestinians would have had an independent state as early as 1947, with an international Jerusalem - but they were greedy, and couldn't live with the idea of a Jewish nation. It is only natural then, that in the ensuing war Israel should have tried to establish the best borders it should - there are no double standards in war.

Show me any proof?

Well, they ruled the occupied territories for 20 years, and no one fought back - it was much easier to accept their generous weapons and training and kill innocent Israeli civilians in cross-border raids.

Do you mean that there are no innocent Palestinian? do you cry only for Israeli victims who lost their lives because they decide to live on stolen land in WB and Gaza and you ignore all those Palestinian victims?

Hitler murdered 6 Million Jews, while all Zionist victims from 1897 till 2004 around 21000. Among them, 18000 were killed in five wars with Arab countries...

Sharon murdered in Lebanon 1982 more than all its victims in one century of Zionism.

That's quite an oxymoron... Jews are welcome but they are not welcome if they have a strategy of immigration? Do you consider Zionism evil?

Why ONLY Jews are allowed to immigrate? What the reason behind that?

What about millions of Palestinian refugees?
Why Muslims and Christian can not immigrate also?

Of course (right wing of Zionism- including the current Israeli government) is evil. It is also crime against Jews people, who deserve to live in peace after the Holocaust.. they declared this injustice war in the name of Jews people who suffer a lot from racism and hate through centuries.

Palestinian and Jews do not deserve all this blood because of crazy ideas of Zionism.

 

[Bilal]

What if those "invaders" see it as their homeland too, and try to establish it by peaceful means? Is it still a rule of nature? "Rules of nature" are usually an excuse for inhumane behaviour. It's time Palestinians rose above their "nature" and start obeying the rules of man - such as the right to live.?

Do you mean ‘’rule of nature’’ is excuse also for NAZI to murdered millions of innocent people 2WW? Why you cry for Jews victims in 2WW, if Hitler murdered them based ‘’on rule of nature’’?

It is great at end to admit that Zionism ideology and creation of Israel based on ‘’rule of nature’’.

You found peaceful nation in Palestine. They work hard in their farms to educate their kids and get respectful life. Christian, Jews, Muslims, atheists.. live together in peace for centuries .. They welcomed all ‘’poor refugees’’ from different religions and communities in their peaceful homeland.

Suddenly, an Austrian Jews meet each other and decided to apply ‘’rule of nature’’ on this peaceful and weak nation (they also proposed the Uganda and Argentine (colored people) …. So they collaborate with imperialists, who believe in rule of nature and they invaded this peaceful nation and destroyed it!

After all, in the name of ‘’rule of nature ‘’ Zionists ask the Palestinian to surrender completely and to accept the facts on ground!

 

[Bilal]

The Palestinians of today are of many different origins. The towns you mentioned were not built by their ancestors, rather they were overtaken many times in the violent history of the middle east - but all that is meaningless to me, I don't think anyone today should be fighting over something that happened thousands of years ago. I do not believe in God, but do you really think Jews were created out of thin air? Rather, the Jewish religion was formed 3000 years ago, out of which emerged Christianity and later Islam. We share the same ancestors, Jews and Palestinians. I could go for hours about ancient history but is it really relevant to the violence of today?

I said before, I do not agree to ask the Jews to leave, but we should stop all this violent, hate and racism. Simply, you should see the Zionism and Israel in the real world, it is not logical to blame the Palestinian who is victims for everything. I do not care about the religion or color of my neighbor … and I am not appointed by god to judge people , everyone free in his life. All what I need , that my neighbor should not come one day to kick me from my house and to kill my kids because he believe in religious myth.
You also know that 90% of settlers of WB are extreme religious and they give very bad image about Jews. We rarely met peaceful Jews, but everyday we meet those bloody and religious settlers who want to kill us for fun.. and the Israeli soldiers feel happy to mistreat the Palestinian civilians everyday on checkpoints.

Please do not blame the Palestinian for having bad image about Israel, replace those settlers by peaceful Jews we will live in peace with them.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with Jewish history. Like I stated before, it's useless to start discussing ancient history but trust me when I say Jews didn't just appear one day in all these different countries and decide to take Palestine out of pure evil. Or maybe you won't believe that...

Right... We're just plain evil and our sole purpose is to create misery for the wonderful Palestinians - is that your idea of working towards peace? Spreading hateful lies?

I know Jews history and I highly respect them (please read my previous posts about contribution of Jews in ME civilisation). I am very angry from Zionism because of its crimes against Jews and Palestinian. We should not have all this hate and violence … we have many common things and we should build better future instead to live as Masters and slaves, because one side got support from USA!

 

[Bilal]

So what, You can read also for these Jews who ask for reformation of zionism and see it as the source of the troubles for Jews and Arab

http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/NaeimGiladi.cfm

There is a difference between ciriticism and incitement. You don't see any palestinian leader eating Israeli babies in mainstream Jewish or US newspapers.
Reform in the Arab and Muslim World
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=58151

 

[Bilal]

MEMRI and many Zionist sites (especially after 11/9) became new version of Zion protocols . They doing with Arab what anti Semite Russian and German did with them.

They show Arab as pure evil and root of troubles in all human history. They focus on speech or text from here and there to show the Arab in evil image …

In 30s, Hitler used this strategy against the German Jews. His propaganda machine used to focus on quotes of some Jews who live in USA and UK to tell the German that Jews want to annihilate the German race, so our war with them is to be or not to be!

I completely agree that MEMRI has some agenda behind it - why would anyone with no agenda start an organization like that? But so do newspapers and news channels, and users on internet forums. Even I have an agenda, and I have no problem stating it.
Which is also why I previously said with regards to MEMRI, you have to separate fact from opinion. There's no substitute source for translated Arab media, and like it or not, a lot of the content on Arab media (especially in, but not limited to, the states of Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia) incites against Israel and the US. The guys in MEMRI may put things in a negative light, but they don't make facts up. Those cartoons, quotations and video clips are real ones from real, mainstream Arab media. I can say this whole-heartedly because those kind of things have crossed my life's path in the past.
MEMRI also gave me the chance to witness positive things, such as the discussion of the previously-taboo women's rights in Saudi-Arabia and education on the firing of guns in celebrations in Jordan.

 

[Yonoz]

I am sorry that you again twist the truth again and show your arrogance.

Funny, since I first read this thread I wanted to say the same about your posts. Didn't want to make it personal though - guess it's too late for that now.

I tried to find common things and peaceful discusion, but it seems useless with Zionist.

What common things did you try to find? My discussion is peaceful - in spite of your efforts to inflame me. As an example, you still use the word "Zionist" in a derogatory manner. I'll ask you again - what is your definition of Zionism?

I am not surprise also, because even if we give all ME to Zionists and leave to China , they will ask us to pay for ‘’renting’’ our countries for 7000 years!

Are comments like this one your idea of "trying to find common things and peaceful discussion"?

It is really funny how you changed the facts on ground.

I present my perspective of the conflict. Other parties may decide for themselves what to make of it. That is the way discussions of this sort work.

Palestinian were fight for independence of their country from UK and illegal militants Zionists immigrants.

What was illegal or militant about Jewish immigration prior to the Jerusalem pogrom of 1920? Even if there was illegal immigration, does it justify violence? Does anything short of an unresolvable threat ever justify violence?

Israel has no moral justification tocraeted by destruction opf other

No one claimed it has. Israel was founded in accordance with the UN Partition Plan. It is the Arab nations that attacked it with the expressed aim of annihilating it, less than a day after it declared independence.

In fact you can not built your civilization on the bodies of kids of otherfireners militasnts called ‘’Zionists”. Zionists are similar to crusaders they will not be able to survive in peace because their ideology is based on horrible mixing between religious myth and racism.

There you go with your "common things and peaceful discussion" again.

You blame few thousands of Arabs for fighting with Palestine? Please read what behind the lines and be innocent to show the truth :

1) Arab nations involved in the war after the barbaric massacre of Dair Yassin by the Zionists , who murdered all the people of this town and raped many girls in public during military marsh in W. Jerusalem.

There you go mentioning Deir Yassin again. Of course you would, since that's about the only display of unnecessary violence from the Jewish side. Furthermore, I have acknowledged that fact several times already - it's time you acknowledged the violence on your side prior to that incident, which surpasses the acts of Deir Yassin a thousandfold. Remember this is during a time of hostilities (hostilities that were initiated by Arabs), and was perpetrated by small extremist factions against the position of the Haganah. Furthermore, Arab leaders expressed their intentions to annihilate Israel long before its declaration of independence and long before Deir-Yassin. As a matter of fact, if you actually read the wikipedia article, you'll see Iraqi and Syrian troops were attempting to enter the village - which is quite far away from Syria and Iraq - prior to the attack. Actually, Arab armies were fully prepared to invade as soon as Israel declared independence during that time. What rapes are you talking about? What military parade?

2) More than 95% of Zionist are from another countries.

Really? Are you saying 95% of all Zionists were born before 1948? Surely more than 5% of all Zionists are younger than 58. I guess now you'll say that you meant their parents - well, if we go back far enough, 100% of all Zionists are from Palestine. That's why I focus on the future, rather than on the past. If you try settling this argument by determining who has first right to the land you'll end up in a dead-lock. Then again, it seems you are not interested in settling this argument.

They joined the war to kill the Palestinian, so why you want the rest of the Arab watching, while all the Zionist communities I the world declare war to destroy Palestine and to establish their ''State '' based on religious myth?

What war on the Palestinians? When did all the Zionist communities in the world declare war to destroy Palestine? All they wanted to do was establish a homeland in peaceful means. Aren't all religions myths? Truth is in the eye of the beholder.

Could you blame the American for their war to save Europe from NAZI? or to fight the Japanese?

No. Are you comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and WW2 Japan?

Here is how the Zionists started this war against Palestinian civilians which forced the people to fight back, Plaeslestinian decide to fight back after 3 weeks of organista attacks and msscres against Plaetsinian civilians by Zionists murders (Lihi, Etzel and Haganah):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_war

You know very well there were plenty of hostilities before 1948. Still, let me quote from that same article:

At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews and 71,500 Christians. However, this area became the center of Zionist aspirations for a Jewish homeland or state, and gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants. (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe) This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs.

Under the uncompromising leadership of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and most of the survivors were driven out. During the Great Uprising from 1936 to 1939, Arab general strikes and riots targeted both the British and Jews alike.

There it is in plain terms: "Jewish immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs". And this is well before Deir Yassin that you like mentioning so much (maybe you don't like it, but I guess if I had only one incident to prove my point I'd overuse it too).

((Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.

This just goes to further prove that Lehi and the "Irgun" were not acting in the best interests of the Jewish population, which is why they were disliked so much by it.

On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces.))

So you agree that Arab nations participated in the fighting before the Israel was even founded by sending irregulars to organize and train the locals.

Here why the Arab nations decide to help the Palestinian against those invaders:

((Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict.))

Reading your quotation of the article, I got a feeling you missed something (inadvertently, I'm sure) - why else would they write "Some of these villages"? They must have made a reference to them in a previous sentence. So I went and checked, and I recommend everyone who read this does too, since Bilal makes it seem as if they were attacked out of the blue for no reason other than pure cruelty. One thing for sure, you contradicted once again your previous claim that Arab nations were involved in the fighting only because of Deir Yassin, since the article states it gave them further reason.

Here is comprative study between the forces of both sides. This show the large gaop between the Zionist forces and Arab forces:

In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.))

Once again, selective quotation. Everyone should read that part of the article themselves and make up their own minds. I will say one thing though: Arab armies had superior firepower, with 40 tanks (compared to 1 without gun by the Jewish forces) and 140 artillery pieces (compared to 5 Jewish ones, without sights). Not to mention the amount of armored cars they had. Most of the Arab armies' weapons were WW2 surplus, and they had a very good share of experienced leaders themselves. The advantage the Jewish forces had was that they were fighting for their homes and lives. From that same article:

In the north, the Syrian army was blocked in Kibbutz Dgania, where the settlers managed to stop the Syrian armored forces only with light weapons. One tank that was disabled by a Molotov cocktail is still presented at the Kibbutz. Later, an artillery bombardment, made by cannons jury-rigged from 19th century museum pieces, led to the withdrawal of the Syrians from the Kibbutz.

BTW, those are 3 of the 5 artillery pieces mentioned above. The other two were brought from Mexico, and had those big old wooden wheels like you see in western movies. You can see them in a museum in Jaffa.

Settlers are criminals not civilians.

What settlers do you mean? Some modern day settlers I consider criminals also, but they are all civilians nonetheless - a civilian can be a criminal too, you know. I spend a good share of my time confronting them. When have you last confronted a Palestinian criminal?

Also those settlers are less than 4% of the settlers of West Bank and Gaza.

I didn't understand that sentence.

Building settlements in the occupied lands of Palestine and Syria is wrong message for ME nations.

I agree completely.

It is proof that Zionist will not hesitate to expand the borders of their ‘’religious –biblical-State’’ which based all on myth.

Nope, it is a proof that the worst case against Israel is that it is building houses. I agree it's not that simple, but you can't justify the violence and hatred directed at it. Moreover, attacking Israel only strengthens the public view of the settlers. Violence brings about only more violence. Hatred strengthens people's sense of fear and nationalism.

May be the crusaders have more reasons to occupy Palestine than Zionist.

I don't know, it's been a while since the crusades and while the west seems to have gotten over the war with the Muslim world, it sure seems you haven't.

Ben –Gurion mentioned the reality. He even named the Jews towns that built in the same place of Palestinian cities.

Funny, those names are pretty similar. Doesn't sound like something I would do if I wanted to wipe all memories of those places.

What he said is the truth , and early Zionist did not feel shame to do that.

You interpret it in a way you see truthful, I interpret it in my way and to me it is just as truthful, but carries another meaning.

They came from other countries to destroy another nation and to steal its homeland.

So when did this nation ever govern this homeland? I even showed that when asked to elect a Palestinian representative for the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 they adopted this resolution:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

This nation doesn't seem too eager on independence to me. Maybe they don't mind having other Arabs rule them, but they sure have something against Jews, even if they set up an education system for them.

It is funny that current Zionist wants to provide moral cover to their ideology.

Why is it funny? Do you believe Zionists have no morals?

 

[Yonoz]

Sorry I did not know that Mama Teresa and Mandela were the leaders of Israel!

I ask why you defend violence and this is your answer? I can clearly see now you are not interested in peace one bit.

You blame the Palestinian for using violence? May be you kidding!

I guess this must be a really good joke then: Palestinian Terrorism

Man, every Israeli town is built over Lake of blood of Palestinian civilians.

You sound like a true man of peace.

Check the history of every piece in what called Israel you will find behind it horrible pains and suffering.

Pain and suffering of all types of people, Bilal, not just Palestinian. You see things in a very single-minded fashion.

Who hear your comments will think that Israel is established by peace.

If there would not have been such violence resistance to the peaceful immigration, it would have been.

Since the first Zionist put his feet on Palestinian land in 1917, and this part of the world did not live in peace.

I thought you mentioned earlier Jewish settlers from prior to 1897. I guess the crusades were scouts camping, and Lawrence of Arabia was a movie star.

You feel pleasure to treat the other nations as slaves.

That's a very peaceful comment.

Arab are the most tolerated nations with Jews, till you surprise us in the beginning of 20th century. You destroyed the relations for many coming generations.

I'm sorry, I guess we should have stayed in all those other nations who were treating us so well. Who likes treating other nations as slaves now? Who likes superiority over others now? There are so many Arab states, but Jews shouldn't even be allowed to have one on a piece of land that was mostly uninhabitted before they cultivated it? Are we meant to forever live among other nations without ever knowing true independence, true equality, true safety?

You stole by force and terrorism another country and you blame the people for fighting back to protect their lives?

Yes, I can see how blowing up groups of kids outside nightclubs protects someone's life.

If there is occupation then we call it resistance not terrorists.

What magical transformation power this occupation has. I never thought that mass murder could be so easily explained.

The key of peace is in the hand of Zionist.

We already discussed this, the PA was offered everything Israel could afford under Arafat, but he chose the path of violence. Now that there's a real chance, it is up to Mahmoud Abbas to get terrorist organisations under control. Even though he hasn't, Israel is still pulling out of the Gaza Strip. I would say the Palestinians are getting a really good deal here.

From 1967 till 1993, there were no suicide bombers, no military attacks in Israel …, but what the Zionist offer? They even rejected to recognize the existence of Palestinian people.

I guess the Munich Massacre and the Sabena hijacking were perpetrated by the easter bunny, and that the Ma'alot Massacre was santa clause's doing.

What called separation wall is NAZI tactic? You surround the Palestinian towns from all sides by wall and you disconnected the families because you want to secure the life of Jews settlers who live illegally in WB and Gaza.

So why is this acceptable:

If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews cities

Is it alright in your opinion for Jews to surrounded by fences but it's not alright for Palestinians?

We are not happy to live under occupation, and human do not survive only by bread.

I am not happy to live as a part of an occupation, but I'm even less happy to live under constant terrorism, persistent even as my leadership sits at the negotiating table with Palestinian leaders.

Our freedom and dignity is the most important.

You mean it is more important than the life of innocent Israeli civilians.

Your claim that the wall on international border is misleading...

I never claimed that. BTW it is mostly a fence, it is a wall only where there can be direct shooting at Israeli civilians from the Palestinian side.

this wall converts the Palestinian towns into large jails and stole 85% of water resources and 70% of the best agricultural lands.

As opposed as I am to the location of the wall, it is you who is misleading. None of those claims are correct.

Please build the china great wall on borders and leave us alone.

I'm sure you'll leave us alone then.

Here is map and pictures of this wall:

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en


Is this map and pictures of wall or NAZI concentration camps?

Your use of the word Nazi is so peaceful. I thought a moment ago you called for building of the wall on the borders - do you think it will look any different on the borders? I bet you wouldn't be using those pictures to manipulate people's feelings if that wall was around a Jewish city like you want.
You see, unlike yourself, I am against all walls, wherever they may be. I also understand that fence has saved many Israeli lives, as much as I dislike it. I hope it will be torn down as soon as possible, but as long as Palestinians legitimate the practice of violence against Israeli civilians and do nothing to stop it, our government's duty is to protect them as best it can, as is the duty of every democratic government in this world.

Do you mean that suicide bombers are the root of the problems?

No but unlike other aspects of the problem they are killing innocent people.

How many suicide bombers and attacks inside Israel from 1967 till 1994?

There are ''Zero attacks'' by suicide bombers or against Israeli civilians...

I already proved that is a lie.

What Israel offer within this period:

- Massacre of (the day of Land) against the non Jews Israeli in 1976.

There was no such massacre.

Massacre of Hebron University, 1984 by Jews settlers.

What massacre? I ran a google search and couldn't find any massacre in the Hebron University.

Massacre of Nahlin , 1988.

Same as above, what massacre?

Massacre of Eion Kara or Rishon Litzion against Palestinian workers on 15/05/1990.

Couldn't find anything on it. Do these "massacres" even exist?

4000 Palestinian victims in the fisrt Palestinian peaceful uprising 1987-1993.

Support that comment.

Destruction of thousands of houses.

Before 1994? Let's see you prove that.

Building 200 settlements and stealing 60% of lands and 85% of water resources.

From all you said until now Israel has stolen well over 100% of Arabs' land and water - quite an achievement.

This means suicide bombers are not the source of the problem!

No one said they were the source of the problem, but they are murdering innocent civilians, and you are supporting them, right here, right now. You can pray for peace as much as you want, if you don't stop the violence it will never come. I understand you're too busy coming up with excuses why you are killing innocent civilians to stop the violence though.

 

[Yonoz]

I did not hear that god sent nations from sky!

Yet you said Jews simply appeared all over the globe and chose to steal the land of the Palestinians.

Every community of people live on common land can create new nation. We were called (Shami people) since thousands of years– Syrian, Palestinian, Jordanian and Lebanese … after colonist era, this nation divided into four nations.

But you chose to remain a part of Arab Syria or South Syria as you called it. Your only problem is being ruled by non-Arabs.

If people of my town decided to create new nation called (Nabulsian nation-Nablus city) this is their rights and this is not means they came suddenly from sky!

Fine, do it.

If people of Californian decided to get independence to and to call themselves Californian nation … then they create new geopolitical constitution but without changing the demography.
People exist since thousands of years in their homeland, but the political position change, and thus we can hear new political names as indication of major geopolitical changes ….

What called Israeli nation is unique phenomenon:
- They were religious communities who have no common history or race since more than 2000 years.

Our race is common as proved by genetic studies, and we all share the same intricate religion.

- They have no common land, because they are parts from different nations. For example, Iraqi Jews have history in Iraq; he has the same color and the same culture. French Jews had history in France and he has the color …

We have a common piece of land that was once our nation, and now it is again, I think you know the name. Our history is also similar.

- These different communities are united to make new nation and to steal the homeland of other nation who live there for thousands of years without any moral or logical justification, just based on jungle laws.

It is based on the fact that Jews could not live as part of other nations with no homeland without being constantly threatened. The purchasing of the land was entirely legal, too. The establishment of the State of Israel was in accordance with the UN Partition plan. The ones who were living the law of the jungle were the local Arabs who attacked peaceful settlements.

we wanted a Palestinian state. It is the Arab countries and the local Arab leaders that opposed it. Had they accepted it, Palestinians would have had an independent state as early as 1947, with an international Jerusalem - but they were greedy, and couldn't live with the idea of a Jewish nation. It is only natural then, that in the ensuing war Israel should have tried to establish the best borders it should - there are no double standards in war.

Show me any proof?

Here it is: UN Partition Plan, note that it has a Palestinian nation alongside a Jewish one, and that Jerusalem is administered by the UN. From the article:

Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. The more extreme nationalist Jewish groups like Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi (group), (known as the Stern Gang) which had been fighting the British, rejected it. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended to the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention November 29th (the date of this session) as the most important date in the Israel's acquisition of independence. However Jews did criticize the lack of territorial continuity for the Jewish state.

The Arab leadership opposed the plan, arguing that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000).

Do you mean that there are no innocent Palestinian?

Certainly not. When did I even hint at that?

do you cry only for Israeli victims who lost their lives because they decide to live on stolen land in WB and Gaza and you ignore all those Palestinian victims?

Wow, a death penalty for living somewhere. That's a good sense of justice there. Honestly, I feel for the children victims of the settlers because they are too young to understand the consequences of living where they live. I don't think it's OK to kill a settler of any age though, regardless of who owns the land. And no, I do not ignore Palestinian victims, though I admit I cry less for them.

Hitler murdered 6 Million Jews, while all Zionist victims from 1897 till 2004 around 21000. Among them, 18000 were killed in five wars with Arab countries...

Sharon murdered in Lebanon 1982 more than all its victims in one century of Zionism.

If you're making wild accusations like that you're going to have to support them with some solid proof. Of course you can't, because they are lies. The famous murders that did go on in Lebanon, known as the Sabra and Shatila Massacre, were carried out by Christian Arabs, though Sharon could have stopped them. However, there is a strong sense of double standards here, as the commander of the Christian militias that performed the slaughter was never even put in front of a commitee and even served as a Lebanese Parliament Member, while Palestinians refer to Sharon as if he was the actual perpetrator of the massacres.

That's quite an oxymoron... Jews are welcome but they are not welcome if they have a strategy of immigration? Do you consider Zionism evil?

Why ONLY Jews are allowed to immigrate? What the reason behind that?

I don't understand that question, and what it has to do with my quote.

What about millions of Palestinian refugees?

Let them found a Palestinian state.

Why Muslims and Christian can not immigrate also?

Again, I don't uderstand.

Of course (right wing of Zionism- including the current Israeli government) is evil.

the current governemnt is definitely not evil, as it is displacing Israeli settlers forcefully from their homes for the sake of peace. How about mainstream Zionism, is it evil?

It is also crime against Jews people, who deserve to live in peace after the Holocaust..

Nice of you to bring that up, like I said no Israeli thinks Palestinians should have to pay for the crimes of the Holocaust.

they declared this injustice war in the name of Jews people who suffer a lot from racism and hate through centuries.

No war was ever declared. You're going to have to back that claim up with some good solid evidence.

Palestinian and Jews do not deserve all this blood because of crazy ideas of Zionism.

Zionism is not a crazy idea. It is a peaceful solution to centuries of antisemitism and persecution of Jews.

 

[stoned]

Our race is common as proved by genetic studies, and we all share the same intricate religion.

excusme i don't undesrstand; you mean palestinians and izeraelis are same people they just share different relligion, right ? because that is what i been reading about for the last few years.

 

[SpaceTiger]

I'm not going to read through all of this, but I would just like to say, in response to the original topic, that I admire Rachel's courage. If someone died trying to talk down a suicide bomber, I would admire their courage as well. I don't know what really happened, so I'm not going to blame the driver or anyone else. Rather, I think we should view this as further impetus to make/maintain peace in the region. It has been host to far too many tragedies in recent years.

 

[Yonoz]

it is not war with Jews ... it is rule of nature to protect your homeland from any foreign invaders.

What if those "invaders" see it as their homeland too, and try to establish it by peaceful means? Is it still a rule of nature? "Rules of nature" are usually an excuse for inhumane behaviour. It's time Palestinians rose above their "nature" and start obeying the rules of man - such as the right to live.

Do you mean ‘’rule of nature’’ is excuse also for NAZI to murdered millions of innocent people 2WW? Why you cry for Jews victims in 2WW, if Hitler murdered them based ‘’on rule of nature’’?

It is great at end to admit that Zionism ideology and creation of Israel based on ‘’rule of nature’’.

Obviously, you didn't read my post very well. Read it again. I'll explain it to you since you got it wrong the first time: you said it was "rule of nature" for the Palestinians to "protect their homeland from foreign invaders". I responded saying that "rule of nature" is only an excuse for inhumane behaviour: the Palestinians' use of violence against civilians in this case. Thus I added it is time the Palestinians rose above their "nature", ie stopped using violence. Israel and Zionism are based on the rules of man, which is apparently why you see it as such an easy target. You apparently think Israel is weak because it is democratic and that you can use violence to pressure the Israeli public into more concessions in the peace process. Unfortunately, your violence only achieves the opposite.

You found peaceful nation in Palestine. They work hard in their farms to educate their kids and get respectful life. Christian, Jews, Muslims, atheists.. live together in peace for centuries .. They welcomed all ‘’poor refugees’’ from different religions and communities in their peaceful homeland.

Suddenly, an Austrian Jews meet each other and decided to apply ‘’rule of nature’’ on this peaceful and weak nation (they also proposed the Uganda and Argentine (colored people) …. So they collaborate with imperialists, who believe in rule of nature and they invaded this peaceful nation and destroyed it!

Listen to yourself, you're your own satire.

After all, in the name of ‘’rule of nature ‘’ Zionists ask the Palestinian to surrender completely and to accept the facts on ground!

Why do we negotiate then? Why are we pulling out of the Gaza Strip? Why are there so many Israeli peace activists (and virtually no Palestinian ones, when it comes to opposing their own side).

 

[stoned]

R.Corrie tried to prevent jewish terrorist in a bulldozer from destroying house of Palestinian family.

 

[Yonoz]

excusme i don't undesrstand; you mean palestinians and izeraelis are same people they just share different relligion, right ? because that is what i been reading about for the last few years.

In this instance I meant Jews, but you are also correct: genetic research proved Palestinians also have a very close genetic link to Jews.

 

[Bilal]

I ask why you defend violence and this is your answer? I can clearly see now you are not interested in peace one bit.
I guess this must be a really good joke then: Palestinian Terrorism .

There are difference between ‘’State terrorism’’ and ‘’individual terrorism. While I am completely against what some Palestinian doing, I see most of Israeli supporting a ‘’terrorist government’’.

I'm sorry, I guess we should have stayed in all those other nations who were treating us so well. Who likes treating other nations as slaves now? Who likes superiority over others now? There are so many Arab states, but Jews shouldn't even be allowed to have one on a piece of land that was mostly uninhabitted before they cultivated it? Are we meant to forever live among other nations without ever knowing true independence, true equality, true safety?

Palestine was full in people, so you can not claim it was empty land! I told before, I have no problem with Jews and I understand their suffering for ages, but this not means to solve their problem by creating another tragedy for another nation. The problem is that there is now Jews State, and they did not satisfy.

Yes, I can see how blowing up groups of kids outside nightclubs protects someone's life.

Just examples of State terrorism in recent years:

Qana massacre 1996

http://www.robert-fisk.com/articles18.htm

((Qana, southern Lebanon - It was a massacre. Not since Sabra and Chatila had I seen the innocent slaughtered like this. The Lebanese refugee women and children and men lay in heaps, their hands or arms or legs missing, beheaded or disembowelled. There were well over a hundred of them. A baby lay without a head. The Israeli shells had scythed through them as they lay in the United Nations shelter, believing that they were safe under the world's protection. Like the Muslims of Srebrenica, the Muslims of Qana were wrong. ))
Is trhat terrorism or not? also you can check the UN report:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre

((The UN investigated the incident in detail, concluding "while the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, the pattern of impacts in the Qana area makes it unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors".))

We already discussed this, the PA was offered everything Israel could afford under Arafat, but he chose the path of violence. Now that there's a real chance, it is up to Mahmoud Abbas to get terrorist organisations under control. Even though he hasn't, Israel is still pulling out of the Gaza Strip. I would say the Palestinians are getting a really good deal here.

Here is the answer from Israeli peace bloc and antiwar movement :

http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h020802.html

I guess the Munich Massacre and the Sabena hijacking were perpetrated by the easter bunny, and that the Ma'alot Massacre was santa clause's doing

The attacks you mentioned are attacks by Lebanon-based Palestinian organization not by the people of WB and Gaza …

The discussion about people of WB and Gaza …. We live in peace under Israeli occupation from 1967 till 1987, then we started peaceful resistance till 1993, then after Hebron massacre (1994) , the suicide bomber started. This historical sequence is proving that security has nothing to do with occupation. Israel builds settlements and continues the occupation because they need the land and they do not want the people who live on that land.

So why is this acceptable:Is it alright in your opinion for Jews to surrounded by fences but it's not alright for Palestinians?

I did not say that, I mean they should build the wall on the border. For settlements they can replace those ‘’extremist Jews” by “peaceful Jews” who suppose to be good citizens in democratic Palestine the same as Muslims and Christian.

You mean it is more important than the life of innocent Israeli civilians.
I never claimed that. BTW it is mostly a fence, it is a wall only where there can be direct shooting at Israeli civilians from the Palestinian side.

I mean innocent people are innocent whether they Palestinian or Jews …..
Again you spread misleading information about the wall! There are no direct shooting from Palestinian side to Israel, because there are no rockets in WB, all what Palestinian have is simple guns and explosive materials, which can not reach the Israeli side directly.

If the wall provide security to Israel, then they can build it on the border and withdraw as Syria did in Lebanon … let the UN forces to separate both nations..

Your use of the word Nazi is so peaceful. I thought a moment ago you called for building of the wall on the borders - do you think it will look any different on the borders? I bet you wouldn't be using those pictures to manipulate people's feelings if that wall was around a Jewish city like you want.
You see, unlike yourself, I am against all walls, wherever they may be. I also understand that fence has saved many Israeli lives, as much as I dislike it. I hope it will be torn down as soon as possible, but as long as Palestinians legitimate the practice of violence against Israeli civilians and do nothing to stop it, our government's duty is to protect them as best it can, as is the duty of every democratic government in this world.

Could you check on the map how the wall surrounds the city of Qalqilya?! Do you agree to force 50000 people to live inside wall with two gates?! Is that city or concentration camp?

I already proved that is a lie.

You did not prove, because I live in WB and I know when suicide bombers attacks … just after Hebron massacre in 1994. The attacks you mentioned was originated from PLO in Lebanon, and Israel reply by Sabra and Chatila massacre and by complete invasion in 1978 and in 1982. WB and Gaza were calm areas in that time..

There was no such massacre.

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/255.shtml

What massacre? I ran a google search and couldn't find any massacre in the Hebron University.

Several settlers (belong to the secret Jews terrorist organization) attacked Hebron University. In the same year the same group tried to explode the Dome of Rock in Jerusalem.

Same as above, what massacre?

It is not documented also on the internet. In 1988, the Israeli soldiers attacked the town of Nahlin near Bethlehem and murdered several people in cold blood.

Couldn't find anything on it. Do these "massacres" even exist?
Support that comment.

Rishon Litzion (south of Tel Aviv)-An Israeli called (Ami Bober) was angry from his girl friend, so he wore his military clothes and asked many Palestinian workers to stand in the work site to check their ID, then he started to shoot them by using (Uzi gun). He murdered and wounded many of them. He is prisoner now, but he got married and he is allowed to spend several days/monthly with his wife in hotel. (Five star jail!)

No one said they were the source of the problem, but they are murdering innocent civilians, and you are supporting them, right here, right now. You can pray for peace as much as you want, if you don't stop the violence it will never come. I understand you're too busy coming up with excuses why you are killing innocent civilians to stop the violence though.

I said that I do not support murdering civilians, whatever their religion or race, also I do not support wars and I wish to see peaceful solution. The problem that you start to write by very biased views, so I have to balance your extreme views by showing the other side of story …..

 

[Yonoz]

I said before, I do not agree to ask the Jews to leave, but we should stop all this violent, hate and racism.

So why don't you ask your PA to disarm Hamas, for example?

Simply, you should see the Zionism and Israel in the real world, it is not logical to blame the Palestinian who is victims for everything.

I did not blame them for everything, but they take responsibilty for nothing!

I do not care about the religion or color of my neighbor …

But you seems to care a lot for the religion and color of your ruler, in fact, you care so much you are willing to accept the deaths of innocent civilians to rid yourself of one ruler, when you gladly accepted another.

and I am not appointed by god to judge people , everyone free in his life. All what I need , that my neighbor should not come one day to kick me from my house and to kill my kids because he believe in religious myth.

Well that's good, since it never happened.

You also know that 90% of settlers of WB are extreme religious and they give very bad image about Jews.

Much less than 90%, but then again even 1 is 1 too many.

We rarely met peaceful Jews, but everyday we meet those bloody and religious settlers who want to kill us for fun.. and the Israeli soldiers feel happy to mistreat the Palestinian civilians everyday on checkpoints.

That is a problem and I, along with other Israelis, am working to solve that in a peaceful manner.
I meet many peaceful Palestinians, but I also know a lot of mothers who won't let their children board buses in Israel.

Please do not blame the Palestinian for having bad image about Israel, replace those settlers by peaceful Jews we will live in peace with them.

I do not want to replace them, I want to put them in jail and return the land to its previous owner. It is very hard to convince people to support that when they feel it is part of a war that is forced on them.

I know Jews history and I highly respect them (please read my previous posts about contribution of Jews in ME civilisation).

Your posts only referred to Jews as citizens of Arab countries. I am well aware of the preferential treatment and respect to the "People of the Book" in Islamic culture, but you must realize that there are so many Arab States, and only one Jewish State - and most Arabs won't even acknowledge its right to exist.

I am very angry from Zionism because of its crimes against Jews and Palestinian.

I think you have been mislead as to what Zionism is.

We should not have all this hate and violence …

Absolutely.

we have many common things and we should build better future instead to live as Masters and slaves, because one side got support from USA!

Since the Madrid conference, it has been the official position of Israel that there should be a Palestinian State. That is not being argued. What is being argued are the borders of the two states and the immigration of Palestinians into Israel, and the control of terror by the PA.
Israel has withstood its first 3 wars without US support, and as surprising as it sounds to a lot of people, it can survive without the US support. You must remember the US is a powerful leverage when it comes to the peace process, as it often forces Sharon to give more concessions than he would like.

 

[Yonoz]

So what, You can read also for these Jews who ask for reformation of zionism and see it as the source of the troubles for Jews and Arab

http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/NaeimGiladi.cfm

Naturei Karta? You don't think that qualifies as an extremist site?

 

[Bilal]

Yet you said Jews simply appeared all over the globe and chose to steal the land of the Palestinians.
But you chose to remain a part of Arab Syria or South Syria as you called it. Your only problem is being ruled by non-Arabs.

Fine, do it. .

Till now most of Arab call Syrian, Palestinian, Lebanese and Jordanian as ''Shami people". Ash sham = Great Syria. We were one nation for centurues , but we divided after first world war. It is not the fist cacident in history.

You created now Jews State … it is ok, so what the rest? You want to continue occupation, building settlements expanding your borders … or you want to live and to leave the other to live in peace?

We have a common piece of land that was once our nation, and now it is again, I think you know the name. Our history is also similar.
It is based on the fact that Jews could not live as part of other nations with no homeland without being constantly threatened. The purchasing of the land was entirely legal, too. The establishment of the State of Israel was in accordance with the UN Partition plan. The ones who were living the law of the jungle were the local Arabs who attacked peaceful settlements.

Some Jews lived in part of Palestine 2000 -3000 years ago. There are many nations before and after them … so there is nothing especial. Otherwise Greek should ask to take Turkey , Arab lived 800 years in Spain, American should be kicked out, Anglo Saxon should leave Wales, Ireland and Scotland … it is the same story of every nation on the earth.

Wow, a death penalty for living somewhere. That's a good sense of justice there. Honestly, I feel for the children victims of the settlers because they are too young to understand the consequences of living where they live. I don't think it's OK to kill a settler of any age though, regardless of who owns the land. And no, I do not ignore Palestinian victims, though I admit I cry less for them.

I never say it is ok to kill the settlers kids , but also it is mistake of them and Israeli government to build these settlements.

If you're making wild accusations like that you're going to have to support them with some solid proof. Of course you can't, because they are lies. The famous murders that did go on in Lebanon, known as the Sabra and Shatila Massacre, were carried out by Christian Arabs, though Sharon could have stopped them. However, there is a strong sense of double standards here, as the commander of the Christian militias that performed the slaughter was never even put in front of a commitee and even served as a Lebanese Parliament Member, while Palestinians refer to Sharon as if he was the actual perpetrator of the massacres.

This what Israeli committee said, but Sharon and Rafael Etan work actively to facilitate this massacre by using Lebanese collaborators.

the current governemnt is definitely not evil, as it is displacing Israeli settlers forcefully from their homes for the sake of peace. How about mainstream Zionism, is it evil?

-there are around 300000 settlers, Israel want to withdraw only from 5000 to 10000 settlers. Therefore you can not claim that significant number of settlers will be transferred.

- Sharon admitted that the reason he decided to do that is Geneva agreement between Palestinian and Israeli peace supporters. He wants to bury their agreement by these steps.

- Gaza represents only 6% of occupied land.

- Withdraw from Gaza, is paralleled with building more settlements in WB (94% of occupied land)
So it is not because Sharon man of peace!