News In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)

[Yonoz]

First: Any Jews should be allowed to buy land in Palestine, but you can not create State from these lands! If I have enough money I can buy large Areas in USA … but this not means it is legally to created ‘’independent Bilalian State’’ in USA soil!

What if your land had been ruled at first by empires no longer in existence and then by a third country under a UN mandate, and you had a UN resolution that called for the establishment of Bilalia - would that be enough? How about all these other nations, have they been in existence since the beginning of time?

Second: Here is from the UN site. Official secret English report show the reality of the problem and the lands owned by Jews:

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument

(((On 17 April 1974, The Times of London published excerpts from a secret memorandum prepared by the Political Intelligence Department of the British Foreign Office for the use of the British delegation to the Paris peace conference. The reference to Palestine is as follows:

"With regard to Palestine, His Majesty's Government are committed by Sir Henry McMahon's letter to the Sherif on October 24, 1915, to its inclusion in the boundaries of Arab independence ... but they have stated their policy regarding the Palestine Holy Place and Zionist colonization in their message to him of January 4, 1918."))

((Similarly, a number of Jewish organizations such as the Colonisation Department of the Zionist Organization, financed by the Keren ha-Yesod, were actively engaged in acquisition of land both for individual immigrant families as well as for the Yishuv or Jewish settlements. Several of these organizations had been operating since the nineteenth century, notably the Palestine Jewish Colonisation Association (PICA)*. With the British occupation of Palestine in 1918 all land transactions were suspended. The registers were reopened in 1920, at which time it was estimated that Jewish land acquisitions stood at about 650,000 dunums** or 2.5 per cent of the total land area of 26 million dunums). 71/ By the end of the decade this figure had nearly doubled to 1,200,000 dunums,
just below 5 per cent.))

((If Palestine had remained under Ottoman Turkish rule, or if it had become an independent Arab state in 1918, Jewish immigrants would never have been admitted into Palestine in large enough numbers to enable them to overwhelm the Palestinian Arabs in this Arab people's own country. The reason why the State of Israel exists today and why today 1,500,000 Palestinian Arabs are refugees is that, for 30 years, Jewish immigration was imposed on the Palestinian Arabs by British military power until the immigrants were sufficiently numerous and sufficiently well-armed to be able to fend for themselves with tanks and planes of their own. The tragedy in Palestine is not just a local one; it is a tragedy for the world, because it is an injustice that is a menace to the world's peace." ))

Ok, so you're saying Britain shouldn't have won WW1, the Ottomans should still have been in control of Israel, Jews shouldn't have been able to buy land, they shouldn't have "fended [EDIT:typo] for [/EDIT] themselves" (that is, they should have been weak enough for the Arabs with THEIR tanks and planes to kill them) and the world would be a much safer place without Israel - is that it?

 

[klusener]

yet Arab Israelis had full civil rights here long before Aboriginies in Australia.

Israeli Arabs had full civil rights here long before the English landed in Australia.

 

[Joel]

This thread has since long lost its humanistic begginning, and whatever diplomatic or academic purpose it may have had at some point.

With that said, I also want to thank Yonoz for his interesting comments and personal experience (that I lack).

 

[Yonoz]

Here's the link:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/18/edavenstrup_ed3_.php

Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks

But that comment you made about English is a pathetic. If you disagree with him, do it logically instead of using cheap shots like that. I would like to see how your Arabic speaking skills are, wait don't tell me you don't know Arabic..Of course maybe Israeli schools don't teach Arabic at schools, it's the same way in Palestine.

I think you misunderstood my comment. I think his English is very good. Maybe you expect me to be hostile, so you interpret my comments in a manner that fits you misconceptions. I'm just a left-wing Israeli whose tired of preaching to other Israelis while Palestinians are foolishly throwing away every chance for peace this miserable area has.
My Arabic leaves a lot to be desired, they do teach it at school but I didn't study the first years here, so I couldn't pick it up. They added Mahmoud Darwish to the literature curriculum, and I assure you we study plenty of Muslim and Palestinian history - of course everyone interprets differently what they are tought. Palestinians don't teach Hebrew but many of them know it fluently as the result of the occupation - not from the military, but because they've been working in Israel, with Israelis for over 3 decades now.

Palestine has a completely different culture and a heritage than the
Anglo/white culture that can be attributed to Israel.

1. What would you describe as "Palestinian culture"? There are many different groups of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories - there's Christians, Muslims, Druze, Cherkes, Shomronites... there's Palestinians of Egyptian origin, Syrian origin, Lebanese, Bedouins, there's tribes that were brought here by the Romans as slaves, there's Arabs with blue eyes and blonde hair (apparently because of the crusaders) - there's no distinct Palestinian culture - it's a historical mix n' match. If there is a Palestinian identity, it is defined only by the conflicts of the 20th century, which is why any historical right to the land is meaningless. We need to come up with a solution, not undo ancient crimes. Unfortunately, everyone is so busy catching up on their history they've forgotten to look to the future.
2. Israelis too are a historical mix n' match - Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, England, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Persia, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, India, Egypt, Ethioia, Morocco, Tunisia are some of the places we've all been for the past centuries. Those who came from Arab countries are very similar in culture and manners, quite opposite from those from the European diaspora. Israeli culture is a mix of East and West - hard to define almost as much as the Palestinian one. The emigrants who came later blame those who accepted them for trying to mould them into their shape, for trying to erase their culture - just like the Palestinians claim we try to do unto them. I understand all sides, but I think that we should all quit whinning and trying to win sympathy and GET OFF OUR ASSES and do something to make our side less violent. I do my bit, but it's hard to convince people if the other side doesn't do the same. You don't hear about it, but almost every day the security forces foil http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/570886.html to disrupt the peace. You only hear about the one in a hundred that they miss, and then the race for world sympathy is once again on, and every side becomes further entrenched in their concept of "historical justice".

meaning that the Anglo world has had much more of an effect on Israel, I mean you look the same

Like our dear friend stoned pointed out, we don't all look the same.

they got you the land, than in Palestine, where the Anglo/white culture and language hasn't achieved the same effect, their old traditions, old language still encapsulate the majority and are common in their lives... for example, do people in Palestine speak Arabic on the streets? Yes. Do people in Israel speak Hebrew on the streets together?

Yes, I don't think I got your point.

 

[Yonoz]

I also want to thank Yonoz for his interesting comments and personal experience (that I lack).

Thanks for reading, Joel, I'd rather we all lack that experience, I'm sure there's plenty of things you've learned while I've been wasting my time trying to change the world
Does that mean the thread is closed?

 

[Joel]

Thanks for reading, Joel, I'd rather we all lack that experience, I'm sure there's plenty of things you've learned while I've been wasting my time trying to change the world
Does that mean the thread is closed?

Yes, a lot of things. From both you and Bilal. However, without some sincere intellectual honesty and effort I see this thread becoming the justice-flamewar of the month.

Keep it cool and keep on saving Thanks!

Oh, and it means nothing, it was just my oppinion.

 

[klusener]

Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks

What else can I expect from Jewish sites, friend?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org? Sorry, I like my information to come from neutral sources if possible.

I think you misunderstood my comment.

another john kerry in the making possibly.. all those waffles are making me hungry .. sorry man I had to say that..

 

[Yonoz]

how can you expect democracy to flourish in Palestine when your government and army constantly is interfering and destroying palestinian infrastructure ?

So I suppose you expect all Israelis to sit quietly as our blood is spilled. It was clearly shown, and acknowledged by the EU, that the PA under Arafat was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Israelis#The_al-Aqsa_Intifada and encouraging acts of terror against civilian targets in Israel. Since there was no democracy to begin with, the least harmful option (other than to do nothing) was to attack Arafat's power base. There is no more of that going on today, as Arafat is dead. Every target was carefuly chosen and analysed, and you'll find that the PA is closer to democracy today than it ever was under Arafat.

palestinian society was quite democratic and liberal

You must be living in another world.

but everything build there with help of European Union was destroyed .actions of your government causes resentment and build up of militant factions. give them land and leave them in peace, and shortly you will see positive difference, otherwise Israel is at fault here.

We have tried giving them land, that's how the PA was formed, what we got in return was PA-supported bloodshed - these bombings are during the most intensive negotiations, they use them as leverage to gain more at the negotiations. In 2000 the same happened in 2000 when the left-wing Labour party was elected, and we all thought this is it, we'll have peace now, but like someone said once, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Before Barak lost the next election he offered them a treaty so good it caused an outrage in Israel, but they still said no! Currently, the PA would not sign a peace treaty unless it meets terms that we can not agree to - like giving up Jerusalem, our capital (personaly I would not object to an intricate internationalization, but I understand those who want to keep it Israeli). That's why Sharon has been forced to carry out the disengagement plan, and it will happen in 4 months (it's a little hard to move tens of thousands of people with their businesses and belongings, especially if they're resisting). So far, Israel is making most of the concessions in the peace process.

 

[Yonoz]

What else can I expect from Jewish sites, friend?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org? Sorry, I like my information to come from neutral sources if possible.

You think there is such a thing as "neutral sources"? Obviously most people who will read and translate textbooks in Arabic will be either Arabs or Israelis, so wherever you get this information, it's biased in someone's view.
Anyway, that's why I gave a link to a google search, not one site. Here's a couple though:
http://www.ecomtrade.co.il/eMall/shops/1559/imgbank/PA%20Report%20-%20August%202004.pdf
MEMRI Special Report 22

 

[klusener]

You think there is such a thing as "neutral sources"? Obviously most people who will read and translate textbooks in Arabic will be either Arabs or Israelis, so wherever you get this information, it's biased in someone's view.
Anyway, that's why I gave a link to a google search, not one site. Here's a couple though:
http://www.ecomtrade.co.il/eMall/shops/1559/imgbank/PA%20Report%20-%20August%202004.pdf
MEMRI Special Report 22

thanks for the links..

MEMRI - An organization that exists to translate and analyze poisonous articles, hate-filled statements and slanderous accusations by the Arabs? That's what Eli Weisel says and with support from the very neutral and unbiased FOX NEWS if I should add.. ;) With a mission statement similar to that, how can bias take place?

still reading the first pdf, well downloading it right now.. i appreciate your effort in getting the links again..

 

[Yonoz]

another john kerry in the making possibly.. all those waffles are making me hungry .. sorry man I had to say that..

Is that a pro-Bush comment?

 

[klusener]

no, but I don't like John Kerry either...

 

[Yonoz]

MEMRI - An organization that exists to translate and analyze poisonous articles, hate-filled statements and slanderous accusations by the Arabs? That's what Eli Weisel says and with support from the very neutral and unbiased FOX NEWS if I should add.. ;) With a mission statement similar to that, how can bias take place?

Think what you like, have you seen some of their content? The only people who would commit themselves to translate Arab media would obviously have some agenda - you just have to know how to separate fact from opinion. They also cover positive events, too, it gives good insight into the reform in the Arab world. I'd be glad if you could direct me to a service that does similar work and you consider unbiased.
Anyway, I'd rather hear what's really on PA TV from a westerner than from a Palestinian.

 

[Yonoz]

no, but I don't like John Kerry either...

Yeah I guess there are some advantages to living in the Middle East.
Oh well, it's way past my bed time - night everyone :zzz:

 

[klusener]

No, the links I clicked on when I visited the site seemed to invite Western anger, for example: Anti-American Cartoons, Common Antisemitic Cartoons, Jews and Israelis as Nazis and Hitler, and Jews and Israelis Controlling the U.S. Government.

I mean there has to be atleast one Arab newspaper that publishes good cartoons, right? Why don't they show those?

That's what prompted me to type that.. maybe I should spend some more time on the site..

Edit: have a good night ;)

 

[russ_watters]

Please don't attribute motives to the people who didn't respond to your post. It's just as likely they looked at it, decided it ws your private hobby-horse, and moved on.

It wasn't my thread.

This is part of the problem. I can understand how you arrive at your interpretation of things, even if I don't agree with it. You can't even understand how we arrived at our interpretation, even after I said how!

Is it because you don't try? Are you faking incredulity, because you think admitting you see how we got our viewpoint would be a show of weakness?

This is so huge, I want to re-emphasize it: I freely acknowledge that the Israelis are doing bad things. Demolishing settlements is one of those things. Simultaneously, the Palestinians do have some claim to the land. So why won't the other side of this argument acknowledge the complimentary points: why won't you guys acknowledge that the Israelis also have a legitimate claim to the land? Why won't those of you on the other side of the argument acknowledge that the neighboring arabs and Palestinians are doing bad things?

Why are some people unwilling to even look at both sides of the issue? If you make an honest effort to see both sides and come to a conclusion different than mine, fine. Different people can reasonably disagree. Heck, I can even accept strong bias if there is a good reason for it (ie, a Arab who has a loved-one die in an Israeli rocket attack has a good excuse for irrational bias - even hatred). But even then, you still have to try. But what is just plain unacceptable is an outright refusal to even try be objective. That is actually what such conflicts are based on.

The whole reason that there seems to be progress is that there are now in power in both groups, leaders that appear to be making an honest effort to let go of their biases and look for a reasonable solution that both could accept.

[late edit for grammar]

 

[Yonoz]

Well said.

 

[Joel]

Very well said, indeed.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Yonoz,

You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.

I am wasting several hours to find document from UN and international sources to support my opinion so the others can trust them, and you seems find it easy to ‘’give’’ negative answers for my posts. Please support your views by acceptable references for both sides. No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ). Also no need to show links of thousands of Jews and Zionists sources. Otherwise, I have also thousands of pro Palestine sources.

Please keep the level of the discussion acceptable by providing trusted sources by both sides.

- You claimed that Palestinian teach their kids hate against Jews.

• I answered you, because I completed my studies in Palestine. “Israeli civil administration of Judea and Samaria" who was printing these textbooks before 1994 as I mentioned many stories and my personal experience. I challenge you to prove the opposite.. How Israel could let anti Jews books while they responsible about the education system completely? Even the teachers and people who worked in education got their salaries through Israeli authority.

• After 1994, EU who sponsors printing the textbooks after the Israeli check them.

klusener provided international link about Palestinian education upon your request then you ignored that.

I do not want to repeat, please do not scatter the direction of the discussion. We are here to understand different views and I wish everyone provide accepted sources to support his views.

 

[Bilal]

- First Russian Jews arrived to Palestine as refugees. They run away after Russian claimed that a Jew who murdered their Cesar.

- How you claim Jews lived in Desert land? Betah Teqwa (near Tel Aviv) and Hudaira (in the north) are the most fertile lands in Palestine. Palestine is fertile land since thousands of years.

- I agree that the Jews immigrants brought new trees from Europe which consumes a lot of water; therefore they stole all the water of Syrian Golan heights, 85% of water of WB and water of South Lebanon ….. Moreover, they still need more water!

Native people knew about your new trees centuries ago since Kanaan / Phoenicians and crusaders wars. But they knew that the ecological system and water resources in Palestine are not satisfy for these new types of trees …. So they were not enthusiastic to plant it. While European Jews who still love their origin homeland wanted to convert Palestine into part of green Europe by using their military forces to steal the water resources of Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.

It is not wonderful work to plant trees, which consumes a lot of water and cultivated some deserts areas by stealing the resources of other nations. If you pour the water resources of Golan heights, South Lebanon (Wazani river) , Jordan valley (West Bank and Jordan) into desert, it will convert to beautiful forest … but you will leave millions of people suffering from shortage of water.

During Crusaders wars, European brought these trees, but after few years.. they could not get any economical advantages .. So they asked all Palestinian farmers to retun back and to cultivate their lands so both communities can survive. Of course Israel does not need that, because they can get water by F16 if it is necessary.

((Remember, in 1961, Israel bombed Syrian dam to ban them from using their water, also they send several warnings to Lebanon , because they wanted to provide drinking water for Wazani area from Lebanese river)).

The native people "helped" the immigrants in exchange for money or merchandise (but now they claim that land "stolen"...), the leadership at the time also got persuasion from European Jews who realized Europe is becoming less hospitable. During that era Jews settled in places that were already well established, however, as time passed, they started settling swamp & desert areas that were, at most, inhabited seasonaly by the locals. If you walk around Israel, you'll find a lot of non native trees, used to dry swamp land. In the south, you will find green spots in the middle of the desert or on the dead sea, where peaceful settlers fought nothing but nature itself..

 

[Bilal]

Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do believe he knew more about the situation than you:

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.)

I don't understand - were the British on the Zionists' side? Why did all these Jewish "terrorists" you mentioned earlier fight them then?
So you agree then that Palestinians fought the Jewish settlers simply because they bought land, cultivated it and built upon it. There's your "origin of violence in the Middle East" Bilal.
I can, and will call it terrorism, but I do not agree it is against some "horrible imperialist project". IMO those settlers realized there's no home for Jews anywhere, and that a country must be made by Jews to serve as shelter. They chose a land that was controlled by the deteriorating Ottoman empire, where surveys proved there are large areas of swamp and desert that can be made habitable, and with no ill means started building a home land.
Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir never ordered the deaths of innocent people, a lot of Israelis don't see Ben-Gurion as a hero, and even fewer consider Golda Meir a hero. Characters - yes, heroes - not always. I can never understand how murderers can be admired.

Great. We still have to solve the problem - doesn't matter how moral you consider yourself. GET OVER IT and start using your energies for peaceful purposes.

 

[Bilal]

I do believe in peace and I understand the suffering of Jews through centuries, but we should not pay the price of crimes of others.

The key of peace is in the hand of Israel:

- One democratic State with equal rights for all people ... Everyone free in his religion.

- Two States, one Jews State and the other Democratic Palestinian State for all religions...

If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews cities who do not like to share State with Palestinian and leave us alone.. Every peace lover Jews is welcome in this democratic Sates. Jerusalem is holy city for the three religions and is the spirit of Palestine, so it should be one capital of one democratic State in the Holy Land or capital of Palestinian democratic State represents the three religions... of course Israel can get Western Jerusalem, but no peace without Eastern Jerusalem.

Simply, we have no patient anymore to live under military Israeli occupation. Live and leave the others to live …

Come on Bilal, trying to convince me is useless - why don't you tell me what you have done to stop Palestinians from harming the peace process? I sure have done the same on my side.

 

[russ_watters]

Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do believe he knew more about the situation than you...

Since the quote is a quarter of a century old, he certainly knew precisely nothing about what has happened in the past 25 years when he said it.

 

[Yonoz]

Dear Yonoz,

You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.

Dear Bilal,
Thankyou for welcoming me to this forum. Are you a moderator? I gather not. I believe my way of discussion is valid. If you would like to comment on my way of discussion, you may PM me as it is a personal matter and there is no need to put on a display for other forum members. If I am in breach of any rule of conduct you may direct me to the appropriate documentation and/or report my post to a moderator. I will not be dragged into personal confrontations in an open forum.

No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ).

MEMRI is the only site that translates such an extent of Arab media. If you can come up with an agreeable alternative I will be more than happy to use it. Your personal opinions of MEMRI are your own, if you would like to question the validity of MEMRI please back that up with reliable evidence. As I stated in a previous post, I find it to be very informative as it covers all aspects of Arab media, including evidence of reform.

Also no need to show links of thousands of Jews and Zionists sources.

You are exaggerating again. Surely I could not have posted thousands of links. Most of my links are to Wikipedia. Furthermore, your use of the words "Jewish" and "Zionist" implies that such sources can not be trusted - I find that insulting. No one here has ever even insinuated the same for Palestinian sources, even though I find their validity extremely questionable.

Otherwise, I have also thousands of pro Palestine sources.

Some of which you have already used, such as http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134 .

You claimed that Palestinian teach their kids hate against Jews.

And you sir are a fine example. Look at your views of Judaism and Zionism:

Surely, it has something to do with Jews/Zionism culture ….which based on superiority of Jews and racism against the native people.

I answered you, because I completed my studies in Palestine. “Israeli civil administration of Judea and Samaria" who was printing these textbooks before 1994 as I mentioned many stories and my personal experience. I challenge you to prove the opposite..

How can I possibly prove the opposite when you do not give any details? Like I said, it's up to the individual to judge how trustworthy your accounts here. I did not even include my personal opinion on the integrity of that story.

How Israel could let anti Jews books while they responsible about the education system completely?

After the Oslo Accords the PA had full control over what was in the textbooks. This reminds me - you claimed they had Israel on the maps - I claim they showed the entire area as Palestine, with no mention of Israel.

Even the teachers and people who worked in education got their salaries through Israeli authority.

As I said, Israel did more for the Palestinians than all Arab nations combined.

After 1994, EU who sponsors printing the textbooks after the Israeli check them.

Israel had no control over the contents of the textbooks, even if it was made available to it officially.

klusener provided international link about Palestinian education upon your request then you ignored that.

How did I ignore it exactly? I responded by giving a list of several articles that say the opposite. In contrast, you did not answer my first question about the picture of an Israeli father and son who you claimed was learning to kill Palestinians, nor have you answered my question on top of what list was Shamir present, nor have you responded to my request that you support the your slanderous claim "most of Zionists leaders who established Israel started their life by terrorism and murdering innocent people", should I continue?

I do not want to repeat, please do not scatter the direction of the discussion.

As you can see, my way of discussion is very methodic - I quote a relevant part of your post, and include my reply directly below it, so that it doesn't scatter.

We are here to understand different views and I wish everyone provide accepted sources to support his views.

Are you really here to understand me? I think not.

 

[Bilal]

- Palestinian were alliance of UK (the same as the rest of Arab nations) against their Turkish brothers.. without the Arab revolution in 1917, UK would never occupy Palestine. I am against the contribution of Ottoman Empire in 1WW, but it is not business who should win.

- I did not say that Jews should not buy lands... Also I am not against creating Jews State in any empty area , but I am against any foreign nation invade my country and want to establish another State for one community ignoring the rights of Palestinian nation who live on his land for thousands of years.

Suppose an Islamic or another Arab nation decided to take my country, I am sure the Palestinian will fight back by all their force ... it is not war with Jews ... it is rule of nature to protect your homeland from any foreign invaders. Jews are welcomed as citizens … but surely they are not welcomed as military groups who consider their immigration is part of Zionism strategy.

Ok, so you're saying Britain shouldn't have won WW1, the Ottomans should still have been in control of Israel, Jews shouldn't have been able to buy land, they shouldn't have "fended [EDIT:typo] for [/EDIT] themselves" (that is, they should have been weak enough for the Arabs with THEIR tanks and planes to kill them) and the world would be a much safer place without Israel - is that it?

 

[Bilal]

It is funny how you mix the potions of Palestinian and Israeli ...

Palestinian one of the most ancient cultures on the Earth (Jericho was built 10000 years ago) , Jerusalem, Nablus , Yafa , Acca , Gaza ... were built 5000 to 7000 years ago ... while the god created the Jews 3000 years ago.

Palestinian culture is results of all great civilizations in history : Kannan / Phoenicians ,
Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Arab, Christianity, Islam .. and even Jews. While, those Jews settlers are just religious communities came from different nations...

Russian Jews belong to Russian (White)

Iranian Jews belong to Persian race

Ethiopian Jews belong to African race ...

Till now these communities are separated and the only thing unite them is their hate to Palestinian.

Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks

I think you misunderstood my comment. I think his English is very good. Maybe you expect me to be hostile, so you interpret my comments in a manner that fits you misconceptions. I'm just a left-wing Israeli whose tired of preaching to other Israelis while Palestinians are foolishly throwing away every chance for peace this miserable area has.
My Arabic leaves a lot to be desired, they do teach it at school but I didn't study the first years here, so I couldn't pick it up. They added Mahmoud Darwish to the literature curriculum, and I assure you we study plenty of Muslim and Palestinian history - of course everyone interprets differently what they are tought. Palestinians don't teach Hebrew but many of them know it fluently as the result of the occupation - not from the military, but because they've been working in Israel, with Israelis for over 3 decades now.

1. What would you describe as "Palestinian culture"? There are many different groups of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories - there's Christians, Muslims, Druze, Cherkes, Shomronites... there's Palestinians of Egyptian origin, Syrian origin, Lebanese, Bedouins, there's tribes that were brought here by the Romans as slaves, there's Arabs with blue eyes and blonde hair (apparently because of the crusaders) - there's no distinct Palestinian culture - it's a historical mix n' match. If there is a Palestinian identity, it is defined only by the conflicts of the 20th century, which is why any historical right to the land is meaningless. We need to come up with a solution, not undo ancient crimes. Unfortunately, everyone is so busy catching up on their history they've forgotten to look to the future.
2. Israelis too are a historical mix n' match - Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, England, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Persia, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, India, Egypt, Ethioia, Morocco, Tunisia are some of the places we've all been for the past centuries. Those who came from Arab countries are very similar in culture and manners, quite opposite from those from the European diaspora. Israeli culture is a mix of East and West - hard to define almost as much as the Palestinian one. The emigrants who came later blame those who accepted them for trying to mould them into their shape, for trying to erase their culture - just like the Palestinians claim we try to do unto them. I understand all sides, but I think that we should all quit whinning and trying to win sympathy and GET OFF OUR ASSES and do something to make our side less violent. I do my bit, but it's hard to convince people if the other side doesn't do the same. You don't hear about it, but almost every day the security forces foil http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/570886.html to disrupt the peace. You only hear about the one in a hundred that they miss, and then the race for world sympathy is once again on, and every side becomes further entrenched in their concept of "historical justice".
Like our dear friend stoned pointed out, we don't all look the same.
Yes, I don't think I got your point.

 

[Bilal]

These quotes in early 70s, short time before his death. All the settlements he mentioned are built after 1948.

He mentio

Since the quote is a quarter of a century old, he certainly knew precisely nothing about what has happened in the past 25 years when he said it.

 

[Bilal]

This site belongs to Turks-American community. It should be neutral because I read news about Israeli travel companies. If it is anti Israel, how could Israeli companies used it to spread information about them?

((Car Rentals in Israel
Car rental deals in Israel at great prices. Reserve online today.))

Some of which you have already used, such as http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134 .

.

 

[Yonoz]

- First Russian Jews arrived to Palestine as refugees. They run away after Russian claimed that a Jew who murdered their Cesar.

Most Jews who arrived in Palestine were refugees - let's not get into that whole persecution thing okay?

- How you claim Jews lived in Desert land? Betah Teqwa (near Tel Aviv) and Hudaira (in the north) are the most fertile lands in Palestine. Palestine is fertile land since thousands of years.

Read my post again. I said that the early settlers did settle in inhabitable areas (Hadera existed as a khan, a road-stop for quite a while) and only after those centres were established could they start settlements in the uninhabitable areas, such as the swamplands all around Hadera and the northern parts of the Negev Desert. Israel is more than just Hadera and Petah-Tikva, you know.

- I agree that the Jews immigrants brought new trees from Europe which consumes a lot of water; therefore they stole all the water of Syrian Golan heights, 85% of water of WB and water of South Lebanon ….. Moreover, they still need more water!

Oh please...

Native people knew about your new trees centuries ago since Kanaan / Phoenicians and crusaders wars. But they knew that the ecological system and water resources in Palestine are not satisfy for these new types of trees …. So they were not enthusiastic to plant it. While European Jews who still love their origin homeland wanted to convert Palestine into part of green Europe by using their military forces to steal the water resources of Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.

It is not wonderful work to plant trees, which consumes a lot of water and cultivated some deserts areas by stealing the resources of other nations. If you pour the water resources of Golan heights, South Lebanon (Wazani river) , Jordan valley (West Bank and Jordan) into desert, it will convert to beautiful forest … but you will leave millions of people suffering from shortage of water.

When does Dr. Evil come in?

During Crusaders wars, European brought these trees, but after few years.. they could not get any economical advantages .. So they asked all Palestinian farmers to retun back and to cultivate their lands so both communities can survive. Of course Israel does not need that, because they can get water by F16 if it is necessary.

((Remember, in 1961, Israel bombed Syrian dam to ban them from using their water, also they send several warnings to Lebanon , because they wanted to provide drinking water for Wazani area from Lebanese river)).

You sure like turning facts around don't you? It wasn't a dam, it was a series of canals on the slopes of the Golan Heights that were meant to divert the water coming from there from reaching the Sea of Galilee, where Israel gets nearly all of its water, to the Yarmuch river, that flows directly into the Jordan river, thus depriving Israel of its water supply. Those semi-built canals still exist today, covered in vegetation, you can barely trace them when looking up at the Golan Heights from the Sea of Galilee.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Yonoz,

I think both of us live in war zone, so it is impossible to convince each other, so let the other (from outside Palestine/Israel) to contribute ...Please do not take my discussion personal against you. I wish we could have peace one day and then we can discuss more peacefully... believe me, I have many Jews/Israeli friends and I admire them, so no need to start to attack our nations. Believe me or not, I care about victims of both sides and I pray for peace always, but I DO believe in my ideas... because it is my daily life under occupation.

Best wishes for you and your family..

Lets the people who live out the conflict ask if they have any questions, then I and Yonoz can show the two sides of the story.