News In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)

[Bilal]

Dear sid_galt,

No need to waste a lot of time to realize that the previous link is Zionist propaganda. Just read such sentences to see the way of writing indicate that the authors work hard to defend Israel, and their views are similar to the right Zionist wing. Usually international and unbiased sources do not use such language:

Example:

((Josef Goebbels, the infamous propaganda minister of the Nazis, had it right. Just tell people big lies often enough and they will believe them. The Arabs have learned that lesson well. They have swayed world opinion by endlessly repeating myths and lies that have no basis in fact. ))

Their sources:

http://www.think- israel.org/background.html

PEACE IS POSSIBLE BETWEEN ISHMAEL AND ISRAEL
ACCORDING TO THE KORAN by Dr. Asher Eder

http://web.israelinsider.com/home.htm
Israel insider- Israel's daily newsmagazine

Arutz Sheva - IsraelNationalNews.com
Who Are the Palestinians? by Yashiko Sagamori November 25, 2002

Do you think I am silly person who do not know that those sources are owned by extremist Zionist wing?

I provided links for UN and international organization, while you want me to get the information about my country from people believe that the ‘’Good Palestinian is only the dead Palestinian?). It is the same as to get information about Holocaust from NAZI sources.

Bilal, first of all, you provide no evidence that the second link is Zionist propaganda.

Secondly, what I quoted from that site is a fact. The Arab League of Nations attacked Israel first.

 

[Informal Logic]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/001/225tpziw.asp is a good article with another good reason, and a little bit of my #1.

First, Israel did not build a nation on their own the way the US was built. Israel would not exist without US financial aid or military protection. What this article does convey is my very point about bias due in part to a large Jewish constituency in the US, but American bias also comes from propaganda such as this article.

Israel needs to stop pushing the envelope with regard to borders (and stop playing the "poor little Israel" card on this) and needs to negotiate a sincere, fair settlement. The US needs to end it's dependence on oil and stop meddling in Middle East affairs. The Christians in the US need to stay out of politics across the board, including the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And the Arabs need to stop perpetuating an uncivilized image of bickering even among themselves.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Joel,

Welcome to this discussion ….

Position of WB and Gaza:

- Suppose that WB and Gaza is not ‘’complete ‘’ occupied territories (according to UN resolutions), so what the fate of people who live in these lands for centuries? Is that justify to force the Palestinian to live as slaves under the occupation and to give their lands and resources to ‘’new Jews immigrants’’?

- If Israel wants WB and Gaza, then they should give the nationality for the nation who lives in these lands since centuries and to establish one democratic State with equal rights for different religions and communities?

- The problem they do not need to give equal rights to all people who live in Holy Land because they want only Jews State, in the same time they do not want to let the Palestinian to survive as free human in their own country , because they need the ‘’great Israel’’. May be they wait for ‘’final solution’’?

Genocide of Palestinians

Around 250000 Palestinian (Palestinain sources) were murdered and 6 Millions are living in refugees’ camps (largest refugees’ community in the world) since 1948 under miserable conditions.

I think the game of numbers is not wise way. Otherwise, how many Israeli are killed by what called ‘’terrorism’’? According to the Israeli army; 21000 Jews are killed in Palestine since 1897 (militants and Civilians), while 25000 Israeli are killed by car accidents since 1948. Therefore, Hamas and other Palestinian groups are doing fun comparing with what NAZI did to Jews.

The difference between Palestinian tragedy and other tragedies in this world:

1- For the first time in modern history, another nation who live ,since centuries, on his homeland is displaced by another people by the support of all great countries (e.g. USA, USSR, UK, France ...). This “displaced” nation forced to loose its country, culture, heritage to another nation without any moral or logical reasons. Just because it is fit with interest of some imperialist countries or compensation for NAZI crimes, which have nothing to do with Palestinian.

2- Palestinian are facings new tactic of ‘’ethic cleansing’’ called: ‘’slow annihilation’’. Israel destroyed their towns, changed the names of all geographical sites, stole their traditional food, music, clothes … etc. Additionally, they destroyed all the historical sites of the Palestinian and they build huge settlements, changing the geography and destroy the history of the land.

3- Palestinian are living as hostages, in suitable time ‘’e.g. regional war’’, Israel will not spare any Palestinian. The only reason they do not starts to annihilate the Palestinian now is the public opinion in the world and the response of nations of ME.

4- Israel is the only country in the world without border. For example, they issued law in 1981 considering Syrian Golan Heights as Israeli land , beside that many Jews still believe that most of ME should be part of ‘’Promised Land’’ : from Iraq till Egypt.

Good discussion participants, let me first introduce myself. My name is Joel and I am a Jew living in Finland. I want to thank especially Bilal for providing many interesting references to Middle Eastern history and for sharing his personal experiences. I also want to comment on two of the discussed issues: the legal status of Gaza and The West Bank, and the claimed genocide of Palestinians.

I just read an article, by a lawyer from New York, David Storbin, who argued quite convincingly that the legal question is disputable to say the least:



- Legal Status of West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, David Storbin

He addresses many of the resolutions quoted in this discussion, so I would say it is worth a read.

Regarding the claimed genocide of Palestinians, I wonder if someone could provide a reliable source of how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelies in recent years? I recall an NGO presenting a figure close to 3000 after the year 2000 (including the security obstacle). Considering that 'genocide' is easily associated with the happenings in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, where millions of people where slaughtered, I find it very misleading to speak about genocide or ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians today. Even if such selection of words no doubt has a media value, I would hope it would not be used to prevent an escalation of the conflict.

 

[Bilal]

When was the country of "Germany" founded?

Germany was separated provinces till the 19th century. Before 160 years, The German Union was established.

Is that means, German as nation was not exist till 160 years ago? Of course not, German exist since thousands of years in their homeland, but for many reasons, the decided to call themselves as one nation (Germany). Even province of Prussia (origin of Germany) is part of Poland today and its people still German.

Italy was also created for the first time in 19the century. Is that means no Italian exist before that, or they came from Mars? Of course Italian are living in their homeland since long time before they decided to create Italy and its nation.

It is the same applicable for most of world countries … nations do not change, but they divide or unite to create new ‘’political names for their nations and countries’’.

Palestine was called “Southern Syria’’. It was part from Great Syria for centuries (Ottoman Empire). The region called ‘’Bilad Ash-sham = Land of Sham” since Roman era. After 1WW, France and UK decided to divide great Syria into Palestine, Jordan (Southern great Syria) - Lebanon and Syrian (North of great Syria).

Before that, Palestine used to be divided into three provinces within great Syria: ‘’Province of Jerusalem, Nablus and Beirut.

Call it what you want ‘’Palestine, Moonland, MarsLand ..’’ this will never change the fact that people are living in that land since 7000 years and they never stole this land from other nations. Jews as many nations live in part in Palestine before more than 2000 years, but they were destroyed by Roman and then by crusaders … it is the way how the history of any nation going.

There is a lot of rhetoric flying around in this thread and its gone a long way from where it started. I have just one question:

When was the country of "Palestine" founded?

 

[Bilal]

UN recognised Israel in 1948, but the Zionism started in 1897 aims to create Jews homeland in Uganda, Palestine or Argentina ... then they decided to chose Palestine , especially after UK promised to assists them if they succeed to occupy it.

After the Holocaust in 2WW, Jews got a lot sympathy among western, nations, so they decided to support certain of Israel in part of Palestine support of great countries in that time (USA, USSR, France and UK).

I thought it was the UN that created the state of Israel, not a holy book.

 

[Bilal]

1. Palestinain have nothing to do with the Jews in WWII.
2. How terrorism started in ME (I think we discussed this topic in details , but you are not going to make up your mind): Please read about Zionists movement : Irgun & Lihi in 40s and Kahana Chai & Kach from 80s till now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism

It isn't true. The US is biased toward Israel for two reasons:

1. The persecution (genocide) of the Jews in WWII.
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Informal Logic,

I understand your point. In fact I started this thread thinking that people care to read the emails of Rachel Corrie. She was American eyewitness who did not hate Jews or Israel. I think they will realize the miserable conditions of Palestinian who suffering from ''State Terrorism" of Israel. Unfortunately, as usual, the discussion shifted to other topics related to root of the conflict.

The first observation in regard to this thread is that it focuses on one incident in a chain of incidents in the past, and that will similarly occur in the future...

 

[russ_watters]

When was the country of "Germany" founded?

Germany was separated provinces till the 19th century. Before 160 years, The German Union was established.

The point is, Germany exists. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Practically, its a little difficult for a country that doesn't exist to make a legitimate land ownership claim. Despite that, Israel is offering land for its creation. Meanwhile, the terrorism continues.

Again, there have been few conflicts in human history as straightforwardly black and white - right and wrong.

"Palestine" exists today as simply a loose collection of terrorist organizations and a powerless, pointless in-name-only government.

 

[russ_watters]

Israel needs to stop pushing the envelope with regard to borders...

Israel has never once done such a thing. All their occupied territories were won in defensive wars.

(and stop playing the "poor little Israel" card on this)

There is no such card. We are well aware that the Israelis are quite powerful. But that doesn't change why we support them - just how much actual aid we should give.

The problem with reducing our aid is that it also reduces our influence. I don't understand why people don't see it, but our aid provides us with the leash by which we keep Israel under control. The simplest, clearest example of this is the Patriot missile batteries in the first Gulf War. But Bush II has also been demanding of Israel. His influence has had an impact on the current situation and is a large part of the reason why Israel is making real, unilateral steps to try to end the conflict (though yes, Arafat's death had a bigger impact).

...and needs to negotiate a sincere, fair settlement.

With who? Based on what would such negotiations have any legitimacy? The terrorists continue to refuse to negotiate despite Israle's unprecidented unilateral concessions. The Israelis are showing truly remarkable courage and restraint.

The US needs to end it's dependence on oil...

Oh, simple as that?

and stop meddling in Middle East affairs.

Like it or not, the US is the world's policeman. And there is crime in progress in the ME that we need to deal with.

The Christians in the US need to stay out of politics across the board...

What?!? Christians shouldn't be allowed to be citizens?! What are you talking about?

 

[Yonoz]

How terrorism started in ME (I think we discussed this topic in details , but you are not going to make up your mind): Please read about Zionists movement : Irgun & Lihi in 40s and Kahana Chai & Kach from 80s till now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism

Whereas all of your aforementioned groups and the despicable Meir Kahane were considered overly extreme by most of the Jewish population in Palestine and later by the State of Israel (information leading to the capture of some of the pre-independence groups' members was given to the British forces by other Jewish organisations, and Kahane's Party was declared illegal by the Israeli Knesset & Supreme court and its activists are largely despised in today's Israeli society), Palestinian terrorism has always been, and still is, accepted as legitimate by Palestinians and Arabs world-wide, and is taught to Palestinian children in the PA's schools and summer camps.
If you're looking for the "origin" of the violent conflict, if it can be even defined, maybe you should read up on Haj Amin al-Husayni.
[edit] There is little information in Wiki about those years, but here's a short section about violence long before any of the groups you named: Joseph Trumpeldor - Death and remembrance and another one: Jerusalem pogrom of April 1920

 

[Joel]

Suppose that WB and Gaza is not ??complete ?? occupied territories (according to UN resolutions), so what the fate of people who live in these lands for centuries? Is that justify to force the Palestinian to live as slaves under the occupation and to give their lands and resources to ??new Jews immigrants?

If Israel wants WB and Gaza, then they should give the nationality for the nation who lives in these lands since centuries and to establish one democratic State with equal rights for different religions and communities?

The problem they do not need to give equal rights to all people who live in Holy Land because they want only Jews State, in the same time they do not want to let the Palestinian to survive as free human in their own country , because they need the ??great Israel??. May be they wait for ??final solution?

If the WB and Gaze are not illegally occupied territories, then I see two parties claiming they have the moral right to rule the areas. Considering that both Jews and Palestinians have lived in the area (entire Israel) during the course of history and both have religious reasons to call the land Holy, I find it very difficult to say who has the moral high ground.

Another way to determine who should rule the areas is by pure power struggle, which has been the case in all the wars between Israel and the Arab nations. Israel was left with control over WB and Gaza after they obtained them in the war of 1967 and the Arab nations failed to re-obtain them in the war of 1973.

But no legal, moral or power political claim to any area is by itself enough to secure its stability and later, 'human developmen'*, as surely can bee seen from numerous historical examples. I do not know what is enough, but I think a combination of increased wealth, security from the rule of law and the ability to express one self through democratic institutions may provide a better future for Jews and Palestinians alike, in Gaza, WB and elsewhere. Weather this is better done by giving Palestinians equal rights with Jews or by withdrawing from the settlements and establishing a Palestinians state will probably depend on how important religion will be for both sides and how the attitudes against Jews in other Arabian countries develop. Maybe the current plan of withdrawal and two states is for the better?

I must also ask you, who is 'they'? Are you referring to the government of Israel and the policy of Sharon, a particular party's agenda, or some other particular group? I am asking, because one of the most persistent myths about Jews is the belief that a Jewish or Zionist conspiracy exists to take over the world. **

*Human development combines socio-economic development, cultural change and democratization into a single, measurable concept. It is based on Amartya Sen's economic theories and is currently measured yearly by UNDP. http://hdr.undp.org/reports/

**See this case study of Antisemitism in Swedish public discourse for a background of the various myths associated with Antisemitism. http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2001-2/bachner.htm The article is based on Henrik Bachner's doctoral thesis in History of Ideas at Lund university.

Genocide of Palestinians

Around 250000 Palestinian (Palestinain sources) were murdered and 6 Millions are living in refugees? camps (largest refugees? community in the world) since 1948 under miserable conditions.

Thank you for the numbers. Even if it is a palestinian source, could you name it or provide a link if it exists on the internet?

Here is the source I remembered: http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_killed_fact_sheet.htm

I think the game of numbers is not wise way. Otherwise, how many Israeli are killed by what called ??terrorism? According to the Israeli army; 21000 Jews are killed in Palestine since 1897 (militants and Civilians), while 25000 Israeli are killed by car accidents since 1948. Therefore, Hamas and other Palestinian groups are doing fun comparing with what NAZI did to Jews.

There is a saying, "Lies, dammed lies, and statistics" and I agree very much that the game of numbers is not wise. However, I find it important for everyone to be aware of the best estimations we have about how many have died and in what circumstances. If used properly, statistics can also be a valuable tool establish what has happened and will happen, wouldn't you say?

The difference between Palestinian tragedy and other tragedies in this world:

I fancy myself with the belief that I'm not entirely unaware of the Palestinian tragedy. However, as Russ pointed out, there exists a plan to establish a Palestinian state. When and how it will become a reality is not only dependant on Israel, but also on the functioning of the Palestinian authority. Just like you have the right to ask for a safe place to live in, so has the Israelis now.

 

[Bilal]

-Jews settlers teaching their kids also how to kill the Palestinian in summer camps which organized by Israeli government annually.

http://www.world-crisis.com/images/uploads/israeli_settlers_1.jpg

- Concerning the collaboration between Mufti Husiani and Nazi, here also from the same source about the Zionists leaders and NAZI. Both NAZI and Zionism agree to kick out the Jews of Europe to Palestine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Stern

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

((Contact with Nazi authorities
In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.))

- Quotes of David Ben-Gurion, first Israeli PM:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

((If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel." David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

Whereas all of your aforementioned groups and the despicable Meir Kahane were considered overly extreme by most of the Jewish population in Palestine and later by the State of Israel (information leading to the capture of some of the pre-independence groups' members was given to the British forces by other Jewish organisations, and Kahane's Party was declared illegal by the Israeli Knesset & Supreme court and its activists are largely despised in today's Israeli society), Palestinian terrorism has always been, and still is, accepted as legitimate by Palestinians and Arabs world-wide, and is taught to Palestinian children in the PA's schools and summer camps.
If you're looking for the "origin" of the violent conflict, if it can be even defined, maybe you should read up on Haj Amin al-Husayni.
[edit] There is little information in Wiki about those years, but here's a short section about violence long before any of the groups you named: Joseph Trumpeldor - Death and remembrance and another one: Jerusalem pogrom of April 1920

 

[Bilal]

Dear Joel,

I try to compromise by accepting the reality and to be pragmatic. Unfortunately this seems not working with Zionism. Therefore, you will never going to admit what you cause to Palestinian nation.

My question: If you were Palestinian, what you will do?

Before you answer this question read carefully what the Zionist leaders answered:

David Ben-Gurion: leader of independent of Israel and first PM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

(("Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.))

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.))


Ehud Barak:

((If I were Palestinian , I would be terrorist))

 

[Bilal]

Zionist leaders, who created Israel in 1948, admitted that they stole my country and they built Zionist settlements after annihilation of 530 Palestinian towns, so what I have to prove more?

We can not tell 5 millions Jews to leave Palestine…, but also we need peaceful solution:

- One democratic State for all religions, so Jews, Christian, Muslims, Arab ..etc live in one country with equal rights.
- Creation of Jews State only in Jews areas, and let the others to create their Democratic State for the rest of people, including those Jews who willing to live in peace with Palestinian.

 

[Hurkyl]

Zionist leaders, who created Israel in 1948, admitted that they stole my country

I think you need to pay attention to the context. It seems crystal clear to me that in the quote, David Ben-Gurion is describing his perception of how Arabs view the situation. I wouldn't've have even thought that one might interpret it differently until I saw that you did.

 

[Informal Logic]

Israel has never once done such a thing. All their occupied territories were won in defensive wars. ...There is no such card.

What were the original borders when the country was formed? After a conflict, does it mean settlement of new areas is okay? What is the reason always given by Israel for their expansion beyond the original borders? To protect their poor little country from all the bad enemies that surround them. What did everyone think would happen when a new nation is plopped in the middle of countries that have been there for thousand years?

The problem with reducing our aid is that it also reduces our influence. I don't understand why people don't see it, but our aid provides us with the leash by which we keep Israel under control.

So the US is imperialistic, and it's a good thing even in regard to Israel?

But Bush II has also been demanding of Israel.

Now that his popularity is failing he is making these efforts, but due to his previous behavior, he has very little credibility in the world.

With who? Based on what would such negotiations have any legitimacy? The terrorists continue to refuse to negotiate despite Israle's unprecidented unilateral concessions.

In an interview, Jimmy Carter stated that the last agreement extended to Arafat was unreasonable. And if Arafat had accepted it, he would have been assassinated. And calling only one group 'terrorists' is why peace has not been achieved.

And there is crime in progress in the ME that we need to deal with.

Right--crimes like the US preemptively invading Iraq.

What?!? Christians shouldn't be allowed to be citizens?! What are you talking about?

I stated examples above, such as Christians in the US sending contributions to Israel for the rebuilding of the Temple Mount. It is an extension of the kind of religious involvement in politics that we currently see domestically. No, they don't have a right to take foreign policy in their own hands.

 

[russ_watters]

What were the original borders when the country was formed? After a conflict, does it mean settlement of new areas is okay? What is the reason always given by Israel for their expansion beyond the original borders? To protect their poor little country from all the bad enemies that surround them.

When a country wins land in a war, the usual thing to do is either to make it a buffer zone or to settle it. Israel settled it. Now, Israel is making the absolutely unprecidented in all of human history move of unilaterally pulling back from its occupied territories. Countries simply don't do things like that. And what does Israel have to gain? - the terrorists aren't even promising to stop this time. But I guess it saves them the trouble of negotiating, then breaking their agreements.

What did everyone think would happen when a new nation is plopped in the middle of countries that have been there for thousand years?

I thought we had already covered this: there was no country on the land that became Israel. It was a territory of the British empire and was theirs to do with as they wished. Before that, it was part of the Ottoman empire. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Palestine could have existed alongside Israel had the arabs chosen to accept a Jewish country and a Palestine in their midst. And now Israel is just plain going to give land away. Bizarre!

So the US is imperialistic, and it's a good thing even in regard to Israel?

Nothing about the US being the world's policeman has anything to do with imperialism. Yeah, it doesn't happen overnight - but ask the Yugoslavians if they think we were being imperialistic when we overthrew Milosevich a few years ago. Heck, ask the Kuaitis if we took them over. Can you tell me the year the US last took a territory?

Now that his popularity is failing he is making these efforts, but due to his previous behavior, he has very little credibility in the world.

Please look up the year Bush first proposed a Mideast peace plan - then tell me what his popularity was like that year. I'll give you a hint: at the time, Bush's popularity was already near the highest in history. Strange for a Christianity-motivated, pro-Israel President to risk his popularity by essentially threatening Israel (he actually said "I challenge Israel...", but followed it up with a threat to reduce our aid)...

In an interview, Jimmy Carter stated that the last agreement extended to Arafat was unreasonable. And if Arafat had accepted it, he would have been assassinated. And calling only one group 'terrorists' is why peace has not been achieved.

Jimmy Carter is a traitor and a coward and calling terrorists terrorists is a reality that biased people all over the world refuse to accept. The word has a definition and that definition fits one side like a glove. With Abbas, that may be changing, but we have yet to see him actually wield any power over the terrorists.

Right--crimes like the US preemptively invading Iraq.

As I'm sure you know, international law holds that if you violate a treaty ending a war, then that war is technically still underway. Hussein violated the treaty that ended Gulf I on a daily basis and the UN itself said so. So the UN made a threat and then refused to follow through - that isn't news: again, ask Yugoslavia about the UN's willingness to act.

I stated examples above, such as Christians in the US sending contributions to Israel for the rebuilding of the Temple Mount. It is an extension of the kind of religious involvement in politics that we currently see domestically. No, they don't have a right to take foreign policy in their own hands.

I really hope you see the irony of complaining about Christians' influence on politics in a thread about Islamic Jihad and theocracy.

Yes, American Christians want the Temple Mount rebuilt. So what? Iraqi Americans wanted Saddam Hussein overthrown. Yugoslavian Americans wanted Milosevich overthrown. Did you read the article in USA Today a few days ago about the American Muslim woman who built a school in Afghanistan in honor of her son who died in 9/11? Just because a group happens to be religious makes no difference - and certainly doesn't make their choice of charity de facto wrong.

 

[Informal Logic]

When a country wins land in a war, the usual thing to do is either to make it a buffer zone or to settle it.

There is the very important difference of being given a country in the first place. That's why I used the term "pushing the envelope."

I thought we had already covered this: there was no country on the land that became Israel. It was a territory of the British empire and was theirs to do with as they wished. Before that, it was part of the Ottoman empire. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Palestine could have existed alongside Israel had the arabs chosen to accept a Jewish country and a Palestine in their midst.

British imperialism is no better than American imperialism, and just because there was not a country formally called "Palestine" at the time, doesn't mean the creation of a new nation in the area is of no consequence to the people already in the vicinity.

Nothing about the US being the world's policeman has anything to do with imperialism. ...Can you tell me the year the US last took a territory?

This is contradictory, and since when does a country have to actually take a country in name to be imperialistic?

Bush's popularity was already near the highest in history. Strange for a Christianity-motivated, pro-Israel President to risk his popularity by essentially threatening Israel (he actually said "I challenge Israel...", but followed it up with a threat to reduce our aid)...

My remark was about Bush's credibility internationally, which has never been good. The stats on popularity domestically, such as how Bush won by more votes in history, is always skewed. He was never had majority support or popularity in the true sense of it except in his own mind and the minds of his supporters.

Jimmy Carter is a traitor and a coward and calling terrorists terrorists is a reality that biased people all over the world refuse to accept.

Carter has had far greater understanding, and respect for his international work. Bush can only look as good as the advisors behind him can try to make him look.

Yes, American Christians want the Temple Mount rebuilt. So what? ?

To begin, this is no charity. To think that adding such religious fuel to the fire is a good thing is to be impervious to the role of religion in conflicts throughout history.

 

[russ_watters]

This is contradictory, and since when does a country have to actually take a country in name to be imperialistic?

Since forever. Perhaps you should define what you mean by "imperialistic".

My remark was about Bush's credibility internationally, which has never been good. The stats on popularity domestically, such as how Bush won by more votes in history, is always skewed. He was never had majority support or popularity in the true sense of it except in his own mind and the minds of his supporters.

Bush's supporters measure Bush's popularity the same way Clinton's measured his. Have both or neither. Frankly, I don't care either way.

 

[stoned]

Perhaps you should look into the definition of the word. It isn't a word you can arbitrarily attach to whatever you feel like attaching it to.

Blowing up houses of innocent Palestinians is not a terrorism ?
then my dictionary must be wrong,tell me if you agree.

Terrorism:
tt unlawfull use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons

 

[Informal Logic]

Blowing up houses of innocent Palestinians is not a terrorism ?
then my dictionary must be wrong,tell me if you agree.

Terrorism:
tt unlawfull use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons

The request for obvious definitions is a lame deflection, and immature jump-through-the-hoop power game.

Since forever. Perhaps you should define what you mean by "imperialistic".

Imperialism is a policy of extending the control or authority over foreign entities as a means of acquisition and/or maintenance of empires, either through direct territorial or through indirect methods of exerting control on the politics and/or economy of other countries.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, that is just a google away. Try it sometime.

 

[Hurkyl]

It takes a large leap to get from "influence" to "control or authority".

 

[Hurkyl]

The request for obvious definitions is a lame deflection, and immature jump-through-the-hoop power game.

Or, it could be an attempt to remind others what the words they are using mean. Of course, the attempt tends to fail, because people tend to ignore the definition once they quote it.

Not only can I see the potential for a good argument against being unlawful, but I find it difficult to believe that the intention was intimidation, and that the reason was ideological or political.

This is a way in which the appeal to emotion backfires. Not only has the propoaganda attempt failed, but you've managed to avert the discussion away from the point you want to make over to your abuse of the language.

 

[Soilwork]

I know that all Palestinians aren't bad and I sure as hell know that the Jews aren't bad either.
I don't know much about this situation so I can't really comment, but no doubt the Israeli army had a reason for bulldozing the house.
Hasn't the ISM also been found to have sheltered palestinian terrorists??
Anyways I just don't think you can relate the tiananmen square incident to this one.
The situations are completely different.
I think it was a loss of life where there shouldn't have been.
She should have moved.
I mean I think it's good that there are people trying to help, but really I think they should know a little about the history of conflict and what they are standing up for.
I'm am heavily in favour of Israel because the Palestinians partnered with Egypt to try and eradicate the Jews and it seems that they have carried on with their psychotic tendencies.
Obviously not all Palestinians are like this, but the cases where the Israeli military have attacked usually involve hostile Palestinians...that's my point really.
Anyway it was tragic and now there is one less person to help out there, but it was her choice in the end.

 

[russ_watters]

The request for obvious definitions is a lame deflection, and immature jump-through-the-hoop power game.

I argued in a thread, just yesterday, for a scientific, objective approach to politics (and the silence from others in that thread is deafening). Requiring that people stick to the definitions of words is a big, big part of that. In our science forums, we call it "word salad" when people stick words together that sound scientific, but that they don't understand. The same applies here.

I encourage you (et al) to attempt to objectively apply the definitions of those two words. And don't be afraid of the result. I'm letting it go for now, but don't think for a minute I haven't noticed the definition shift game you're trying to play even now. Worse than just changing the accepted definitions, you're changing your own usage of a number of words during the course of the thread.

Too often, people are afraid of showing weakness - afraid of being wrong: its one of the reasons such conflicts persist and it applies to this thread as well. Eventually, as with the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, the reasons for the conflict become irrelevant and both sides just feed on the day to day conflict. The "cycle of violence". Finding a solution requires both sides letting go of their immediate issues and deal with the fact that violence begets violence. Both sides need to drop their posturing and choose peace. In my opinion, the Israelis have shown a willingness to do that (by unilaterally withdrawing from some occupied territories - something that just plain isn't done) and the Arabs have not.

edit: just a little more:

The thing that bothers me most about this issue (objectivity in politics) is that I think everyone is aware of the issue. The thread on a scientific approach to politics generated four responses. People saw it and choose to ignore it. To your credit, you made the only argument against objectivity - at least that shows some consistency. But what bothers me is that even that shows you are aware of the problem and still consciously choose not to attempt to deal with it in your own beliefs. You can't possibly be unaware of the word games you are trying to play. Perhaps you think I'm a fool and don't see the manipulation - heck, I'd accept that. Its devious, but at least it'd mean you aren't consciously choosing not to be objective.

 

[selfAdjoint]

The thing that bothers me most about this issue (objectivity in politics) is that I think everyone is aware of the issue. The thread on a scientific approach to politics generated four responses. People saw it and choose to ignore it. To your credit, you made the only argument against objectivity - at least that shows some consistency. But what bothers me is that even that shows you are aware of the problem and still consciously choose not to attempt to deal with it in your own beliefs. You can't possibly be unaware of the word games you are trying to play. Perhaps you think I'm a fool and don't see the manipulation - heck, I'd accept that. Its devious, but at least it'd mean you aren't consciously choosing not to be objective.

Please don't attribute motives to the people who didn't respond to your post. It's just as likely they looked at it, decided it ws your private hobby-horse, and moved on. Human society is too complex for simple logical discussions to grasp, whether you're talking microeconomics 101, sociobiology, or objectivism.

 

[Bilal]

Could you please show me where Ben Gurion refer to his quote that Palestinian think that not him?

Here the quotes again, I read the quotes again and again ...and I do believe he refer to the facts on ground as he see it, not to Palestinian opinion. I will be grateful if you prove your point, you can also check the original sources ...

Remember , that we do not talk about historian or thinker, we talk about the greatest person in history of Israel who was the leader of independence of State of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion


(("Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.))

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.))

I think you need to pay attention to the context. It seems crystal clear to me that in the quote, David Ben-Gurion is describing his perception of how Arabs view the situation. I wouldn't've have even thought that one might interpret it differently until I saw that you did.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Soilwork,

I do not blame you because it seems you know little about this issue (as I see from your post). It seems you live in area where people know one side of the story. Please read the summery of this conflict from From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It is at least accepted source by both sides because most of their information based on documented and international sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

I know that all Palestinians aren't bad and I sure as hell know that the Jews aren't bad either.
I don't know much about this situation so I can't really comment, but no doubt the Israeli army had a reason for bulldozing the house.
Hasn't the ISM also been found to have sheltered palestinian terrorists??
Anyways I just don't think you can relate the tiananmen square incident to this one.
The situations are completely different.
I think it was a loss of life where there shouldn't have been.
She should have moved.
I mean I think it's good that there are people trying to help, but really I think they should know a little about the history of conflict and what they are standing up for.
I'm am heavily in favour of Israel because the Palestinians partnered with Egypt to try and eradicate the Jews and it seems that they have carried on with their psychotic tendencies.
Obviously not all Palestinians are like this, but the cases where the Israeli military have attacked usually involve hostile Palestinians...that's my point really.
Anyway it was tragic and now there is one less person to help out there, but it was her choice in the end.

 

[loseyourname]

I can see how those quotations can be taken either way, Bilal. It isn't obvious that Gurion is saying that he believes the current Israeli population stole the 'Palestinian country.' He is definitely saying that this is the way the Arab world sees it.

 

[stoned]

I know that all Palestinians aren't bad and I sure as hell know that the Jews aren't bad either.
I don't know much about this situation so I can't really comment, but no doubt the Israeli army had a reason for bulldozing the house.
Hasn't the ISM also been found to have sheltered palestinian terrorists??

jews arre destroying homes of innocent Palestinians just to terrorize and humiliate them, and even if somone living there had something to do with any bombing there is more civilized way to solve this problem ie, catching that person, conducting investigation and if found guilty sending to prison.
let me remind you that palestinians live in ghettos where Israeli army has defacto complete controll, they have spies/informants on the ground, surveilance from above they know everything what is going on.
I would not be suprised if israelis know in advance that someone is planing bombing mission and let it happened to gain more compassion from the USA and be able to terrorize Palestinians even more.
some of the so called "suicide bombings "are even staged by israelis , but that exist in the realm of speculation.