News In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)

[Yonoz]

First: Any Jews should be allowed to buy land in Palestine, but you can not create State from these lands! If I have enough money I can buy large Areas in USA … but this not means it is legally to created ‘’independent Bilalian State’’ in USA soil!

What if your land had been ruled at first by empires no longer in existence and then by a third country under a UN mandate, and you had a UN resolution that called for the establishment of Bilalia - would that be enough? How about all these other nations, have they been in existence since the beginning of time?

Second: Here is from the UN site. Official secret English report show the reality of the problem and the lands owned by Jews:

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument

(((On 17 April 1974, The Times of London published excerpts from a secret memorandum prepared by the Political Intelligence Department of the British Foreign Office for the use of the British delegation to the Paris peace conference. The reference to Palestine is as follows:

"With regard to Palestine, His Majesty's Government are committed by Sir Henry McMahon's letter to the Sherif on October 24, 1915, to its inclusion in the boundaries of Arab independence ... but they have stated their policy regarding the Palestine Holy Place and Zionist colonization in their message to him of January 4, 1918."))

((Similarly, a number of Jewish organizations such as the Colonisation Department of the Zionist Organization, financed by the Keren ha-Yesod, were actively engaged in acquisition of land both for individual immigrant families as well as for the Yishuv or Jewish settlements. Several of these organizations had been operating since the nineteenth century, notably the Palestine Jewish Colonisation Association (PICA)*. With the British occupation of Palestine in 1918 all land transactions were suspended. The registers were reopened in 1920, at which time it was estimated that Jewish land acquisitions stood at about 650,000 dunums** or 2.5 per cent of the total land area of 26 million dunums). 71/ By the end of the decade this figure had nearly doubled to 1,200,000 dunums,
just below 5 per cent.))

((If Palestine had remained under Ottoman Turkish rule, or if it had become an independent Arab state in 1918, Jewish immigrants would never have been admitted into Palestine in large enough numbers to enable them to overwhelm the Palestinian Arabs in this Arab people's own country. The reason why the State of Israel exists today and why today 1,500,000 Palestinian Arabs are refugees is that, for 30 years, Jewish immigration was imposed on the Palestinian Arabs by British military power until the immigrants were sufficiently numerous and sufficiently well-armed to be able to fend for themselves with tanks and planes of their own. The tragedy in Palestine is not just a local one; it is a tragedy for the world, because it is an injustice that is a menace to the world's peace." ))

Ok, so you're saying Britain shouldn't have won WW1, the Ottomans should still have been in control of Israel, Jews shouldn't have been able to buy land, they shouldn't have "fended [EDIT:typo] for [/EDIT] themselves" (that is, they should have been weak enough for the Arabs with THEIR tanks and planes to kill them) and the world would be a much safer place without Israel - is that it?

 

[klusener]

yet Arab Israelis had full civil rights here long before Aboriginies in Australia.

Israeli Arabs had full civil rights here long before the English landed in Australia.

 

[Joel]

This thread has since long lost its humanistic begginning, and whatever diplomatic or academic purpose it may have had at some point.

With that said, I also want to thank Yonoz for his interesting comments and personal experience (that I lack).

 

[Yonoz]

Here's the link:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/18/edavenstrup_ed3_.php

Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks

But that comment you made about English is a pathetic. If you disagree with him, do it logically instead of using cheap shots like that. I would like to see how your Arabic speaking skills are, wait don't tell me you don't know Arabic..Of course maybe Israeli schools don't teach Arabic at schools, it's the same way in Palestine.

I think you misunderstood my comment. I think his English is very good. Maybe you expect me to be hostile, so you interpret my comments in a manner that fits you misconceptions. I'm just a left-wing Israeli whose tired of preaching to other Israelis while Palestinians are foolishly throwing away every chance for peace this miserable area has.
My Arabic leaves a lot to be desired, they do teach it at school but I didn't study the first years here, so I couldn't pick it up. They added Mahmoud Darwish to the literature curriculum, and I assure you we study plenty of Muslim and Palestinian history - of course everyone interprets differently what they are tought. Palestinians don't teach Hebrew but many of them know it fluently as the result of the occupation - not from the military, but because they've been working in Israel, with Israelis for over 3 decades now.

Palestine has a completely different culture and a heritage than the
Anglo/white culture that can be attributed to Israel.

1. What would you describe as "Palestinian culture"? There are many different groups of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories - there's Christians, Muslims, Druze, Cherkes, Shomronites... there's Palestinians of Egyptian origin, Syrian origin, Lebanese, Bedouins, there's tribes that were brought here by the Romans as slaves, there's Arabs with blue eyes and blonde hair (apparently because of the crusaders) - there's no distinct Palestinian culture - it's a historical mix n' match. If there is a Palestinian identity, it is defined only by the conflicts of the 20th century, which is why any historical right to the land is meaningless. We need to come up with a solution, not undo ancient crimes. Unfortunately, everyone is so busy catching up on their history they've forgotten to look to the future.
2. Israelis too are a historical mix n' match - Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, England, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Persia, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, India, Egypt, Ethioia, Morocco, Tunisia are some of the places we've all been for the past centuries. Those who came from Arab countries are very similar in culture and manners, quite opposite from those from the European diaspora. Israeli culture is a mix of East and West - hard to define almost as much as the Palestinian one. The emigrants who came later blame those who accepted them for trying to mould them into their shape, for trying to erase their culture - just like the Palestinians claim we try to do unto them. I understand all sides, but I think that we should all quit whinning and trying to win sympathy and GET OFF OUR ASSES and do something to make our side less violent. I do my bit, but it's hard to convince people if the other side doesn't do the same. You don't hear about it, but almost every day the security forces foil http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/570886.html to disrupt the peace. You only hear about the one in a hundred that they miss, and then the race for world sympathy is once again on, and every side becomes further entrenched in their concept of "historical justice".

meaning that the Anglo world has had much more of an effect on Israel, I mean you look the same

Like our dear friend stoned pointed out, we don't all look the same.

they got you the land, than in Palestine, where the Anglo/white culture and language hasn't achieved the same effect, their old traditions, old language still encapsulate the majority and are common in their lives... for example, do people in Palestine speak Arabic on the streets? Yes. Do people in Israel speak Hebrew on the streets together?

Yes, I don't think I got your point.

 

[Yonoz]

I also want to thank Yonoz for his interesting comments and personal experience (that I lack).

Thanks for reading, Joel, I'd rather we all lack that experience, I'm sure there's plenty of things you've learned while I've been wasting my time trying to change the world
Does that mean the thread is closed?

 

[Joel]

Thanks for reading, Joel, I'd rather we all lack that experience, I'm sure there's plenty of things you've learned while I've been wasting my time trying to change the world
Does that mean the thread is closed?

Yes, a lot of things. From both you and Bilal. However, without some sincere intellectual honesty and effort I see this thread becoming the justice-flamewar of the month.

Keep it cool and keep on saving Thanks!

Oh, and it means nothing, it was just my oppinion.

 

[klusener]

Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks

What else can I expect from Jewish sites, friend?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org? Sorry, I like my information to come from neutral sources if possible.

I think you misunderstood my comment.

another john kerry in the making possibly.. all those waffles are making me hungry .. sorry man I had to say that..

 

[Yonoz]

how can you expect democracy to flourish in Palestine when your government and army constantly is interfering and destroying palestinian infrastructure ?

So I suppose you expect all Israelis to sit quietly as our blood is spilled. It was clearly shown, and acknowledged by the EU, that the PA under Arafat was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Israelis#The_al-Aqsa_Intifada and encouraging acts of terror against civilian targets in Israel. Since there was no democracy to begin with, the least harmful option (other than to do nothing) was to attack Arafat's power base. There is no more of that going on today, as Arafat is dead. Every target was carefuly chosen and analysed, and you'll find that the PA is closer to democracy today than it ever was under Arafat.

palestinian society was quite democratic and liberal

You must be living in another world.

but everything build there with help of European Union was destroyed .actions of your government causes resentment and build up of militant factions. give them land and leave them in peace, and shortly you will see positive difference, otherwise Israel is at fault here.

We have tried giving them land, that's how the PA was formed, what we got in return was PA-supported bloodshed - these bombings are during the most intensive negotiations, they use them as leverage to gain more at the negotiations. In 2000 the same happened in 2000 when the left-wing Labour party was elected, and we all thought this is it, we'll have peace now, but like someone said once, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Before Barak lost the next election he offered them a treaty so good it caused an outrage in Israel, but they still said no! Currently, the PA would not sign a peace treaty unless it meets terms that we can not agree to - like giving up Jerusalem, our capital (personaly I would not object to an intricate internationalization, but I understand those who want to keep it Israeli). That's why Sharon has been forced to carry out the disengagement plan, and it will happen in 4 months (it's a little hard to move tens of thousands of people with their businesses and belongings, especially if they're resisting). So far, Israel is making most of the concessions in the peace process.

 

[Yonoz]

What else can I expect from Jewish sites, friend?

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org? Sorry, I like my information to come from neutral sources if possible.

You think there is such a thing as "neutral sources"? Obviously most people who will read and translate textbooks in Arabic will be either Arabs or Israelis, so wherever you get this information, it's biased in someone's view.
Anyway, that's why I gave a link to a google search, not one site. Here's a couple though:
http://www.ecomtrade.co.il/eMall/shops/1559/imgbank/PA%20Report%20-%20August%202004.pdf
MEMRI Special Report 22

 

[klusener]

You think there is such a thing as "neutral sources"? Obviously most people who will read and translate textbooks in Arabic will be either Arabs or Israelis, so wherever you get this information, it's biased in someone's view.
Anyway, that's why I gave a link to a google search, not one site. Here's a couple though:
http://www.ecomtrade.co.il/eMall/shops/1559/imgbank/PA%20Report%20-%20August%202004.pdf
MEMRI Special Report 22

thanks for the links..

MEMRI - An organization that exists to translate and analyze poisonous articles, hate-filled statements and slanderous accusations by the Arabs? That's what Eli Weisel says and with support from the very neutral and unbiased FOX NEWS if I should add.. ;) With a mission statement similar to that, how can bias take place?

still reading the first pdf, well downloading it right now.. i appreciate your effort in getting the links again..

 

[Yonoz]

another john kerry in the making possibly.. all those waffles are making me hungry .. sorry man I had to say that..

Is that a pro-Bush comment?

 

[klusener]

no, but I don't like John Kerry either...

 

[Yonoz]

MEMRI - An organization that exists to translate and analyze poisonous articles, hate-filled statements and slanderous accusations by the Arabs? That's what Eli Weisel says and with support from the very neutral and unbiased FOX NEWS if I should add.. ;) With a mission statement similar to that, how can bias take place?

Think what you like, have you seen some of their content? The only people who would commit themselves to translate Arab media would obviously have some agenda - you just have to know how to separate fact from opinion. They also cover positive events, too, it gives good insight into the reform in the Arab world. I'd be glad if you could direct me to a service that does similar work and you consider unbiased.
Anyway, I'd rather hear what's really on PA TV from a westerner than from a Palestinian.

 

[Yonoz]

no, but I don't like John Kerry either...

Yeah I guess there are some advantages to living in the Middle East.
Oh well, it's way past my bed time - night everyone :zzz:

 

[klusener]

No, the links I clicked on when I visited the site seemed to invite Western anger, for example: Anti-American Cartoons, Common Antisemitic Cartoons, Jews and Israelis as Nazis and Hitler, and Jews and Israelis Controlling the U.S. Government.

I mean there has to be atleast one Arab newspaper that publishes good cartoons, right? Why don't they show those?

That's what prompted me to type that.. maybe I should spend some more time on the site..

Edit: have a good night ;)

 

[russ_watters]

Please don't attribute motives to the people who didn't respond to your post. It's just as likely they looked at it, decided it ws your private hobby-horse, and moved on.

It wasn't my thread.

This is part of the problem. I can understand how you arrive at your interpretation of things, even if I don't agree with it. You can't even understand how we arrived at our interpretation, even after I said how!

Is it because you don't try? Are you faking incredulity, because you think admitting you see how we got our viewpoint would be a show of weakness?

This is so huge, I want to re-emphasize it: I freely acknowledge that the Israelis are doing bad things. Demolishing settlements is one of those things. Simultaneously, the Palestinians do have some claim to the land. So why won't the other side of this argument acknowledge the complimentary points: why won't you guys acknowledge that the Israelis also have a legitimate claim to the land? Why won't those of you on the other side of the argument acknowledge that the neighboring arabs and Palestinians are doing bad things?

Why are some people unwilling to even look at both sides of the issue? If you make an honest effort to see both sides and come to a conclusion different than mine, fine. Different people can reasonably disagree. Heck, I can even accept strong bias if there is a good reason for it (ie, a Arab who has a loved-one die in an Israeli rocket attack has a good excuse for irrational bias - even hatred). But even then, you still have to try. But what is just plain unacceptable is an outright refusal to even try be objective. That is actually what such conflicts are based on.

The whole reason that there seems to be progress is that there are now in power in both groups, leaders that appear to be making an honest effort to let go of their biases and look for a reasonable solution that both could accept.

[late edit for grammar]

 

[Yonoz]

Well said.

 

[Joel]

Very well said, indeed.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Yonoz,

You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.

I am wasting several hours to find document from UN and international sources to support my opinion so the others can trust them, and you seems find it easy to ‘’give’’ negative answers for my posts. Please support your views by acceptable references for both sides. No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ). Also no need to show links of thousands of Jews and Zionists sources. Otherwise, I have also thousands of pro Palestine sources.

Please keep the level of the discussion acceptable by providing trusted sources by both sides.

- You claimed that Palestinian teach their kids hate against Jews.

• I answered you, because I completed my studies in Palestine. “Israeli civil administration of Judea and Samaria" who was printing these textbooks before 1994 as I mentioned many stories and my personal experience. I challenge you to prove the opposite.. How Israel could let anti Jews books while they responsible about the education system completely? Even the teachers and people who worked in education got their salaries through Israeli authority.

• After 1994, EU who sponsors printing the textbooks after the Israeli check them.

klusener provided international link about Palestinian education upon your request then you ignored that.

I do not want to repeat, please do not scatter the direction of the discussion. We are here to understand different views and I wish everyone provide accepted sources to support his views.

 

[Bilal]

- First Russian Jews arrived to Palestine as refugees. They run away after Russian claimed that a Jew who murdered their Cesar.

- How you claim Jews lived in Desert land? Betah Teqwa (near Tel Aviv) and Hudaira (in the north) are the most fertile lands in Palestine. Palestine is fertile land since thousands of years.

- I agree that the Jews immigrants brought new trees from Europe which consumes a lot of water; therefore they stole all the water of Syrian Golan heights, 85% of water of WB and water of South Lebanon ….. Moreover, they still need more water!

Native people knew about your new trees centuries ago since Kanaan / Phoenicians and crusaders wars. But they knew that the ecological system and water resources in Palestine are not satisfy for these new types of trees …. So they were not enthusiastic to plant it. While European Jews who still love their origin homeland wanted to convert Palestine into part of green Europe by using their military forces to steal the water resources of Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.

It is not wonderful work to plant trees, which consumes a lot of water and cultivated some deserts areas by stealing the resources of other nations. If you pour the water resources of Golan heights, South Lebanon (Wazani river) , Jordan valley (West Bank and Jordan) into desert, it will convert to beautiful forest … but you will leave millions of people suffering from shortage of water.

During Crusaders wars, European brought these trees, but after few years.. they could not get any economical advantages .. So they asked all Palestinian farmers to retun back and to cultivate their lands so both communities can survive. Of course Israel does not need that, because they can get water by F16 if it is necessary.

((Remember, in 1961, Israel bombed Syrian dam to ban them from using their water, also they send several warnings to Lebanon , because they wanted to provide drinking water for Wazani area from Lebanese river)).

The native people "helped" the immigrants in exchange for money or merchandise (but now they claim that land "stolen"...), the leadership at the time also got persuasion from European Jews who realized Europe is becoming less hospitable. During that era Jews settled in places that were already well established, however, as time passed, they started settling swamp & desert areas that were, at most, inhabited seasonaly by the locals. If you walk around Israel, you'll find a lot of non native trees, used to dry swamp land. In the south, you will find green spots in the middle of the desert or on the dead sea, where peaceful settlers fought nothing but nature itself..

 

[Bilal]

Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do believe he knew more about the situation than you:

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.)

I don't understand - were the British on the Zionists' side? Why did all these Jewish "terrorists" you mentioned earlier fight them then?
So you agree then that Palestinians fought the Jewish settlers simply because they bought land, cultivated it and built upon it. There's your "origin of violence in the Middle East" Bilal.
I can, and will call it terrorism, but I do not agree it is against some "horrible imperialist project". IMO those settlers realized there's no home for Jews anywhere, and that a country must be made by Jews to serve as shelter. They chose a land that was controlled by the deteriorating Ottoman empire, where surveys proved there are large areas of swamp and desert that can be made habitable, and with no ill means started building a home land.
Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir never ordered the deaths of innocent people, a lot of Israelis don't see Ben-Gurion as a hero, and even fewer consider Golda Meir a hero. Characters - yes, heroes - not always. I can never understand how murderers can be admired.

Great. We still have to solve the problem - doesn't matter how moral you consider yourself. GET OVER IT and start using your energies for peaceful purposes.

 

[Bilal]

I do believe in peace and I understand the suffering of Jews through centuries, but we should not pay the price of crimes of others.

The key of peace is in the hand of Israel:

- One democratic State with equal rights for all people ... Everyone free in his religion.

- Two States, one Jews State and the other Democratic Palestinian State for all religions...

If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews cities who do not like to share State with Palestinian and leave us alone.. Every peace lover Jews is welcome in this democratic Sates. Jerusalem is holy city for the three religions and is the spirit of Palestine, so it should be one capital of one democratic State in the Holy Land or capital of Palestinian democratic State represents the three religions... of course Israel can get Western Jerusalem, but no peace without Eastern Jerusalem.

Simply, we have no patient anymore to live under military Israeli occupation. Live and leave the others to live …

Come on Bilal, trying to convince me is useless - why don't you tell me what you have done to stop Palestinians from harming the peace process? I sure have done the same on my side.

 

[russ_watters]

Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do believe he knew more about the situation than you...

Since the quote is a quarter of a century old, he certainly knew precisely nothing about what has happened in the past 25 years when he said it.

 

[Yonoz]

Dear Yonoz,

You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.

Dear Bilal,
Thankyou for welcoming me to this forum. Are you a moderator? I gather not. I believe my way of discussion is valid. If you would like to comment on my way of discussion, you may PM me as it is a personal matter and there is no need to put on a display for other forum members. If I am in breach of any rule of conduct you may direct me to the appropriate documentation and/or report my post to a moderator. I will not be dragged into personal confrontations in an open forum.

No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ).

MEMRI is the only site that translates such an extent of Arab media. If you can come up with an agreeable alternative I will be more than happy to use it. Your personal opinions of MEMRI are your own, if you would like to question the validity of MEMRI please back that up with reliable evidence. As I stated in a previous post, I find it to be very informative as it covers all aspects of Arab media, including evidence of reform.

Also no need to show links of thousands of Jews and Zionists sources.

You are exaggerating again. Surely I could not have posted thousands of links. Most of my links are to Wikipedia. Furthermore, your use of the words "Jewish" and "Zionist" implies that such sources can not be trusted - I find that insulting. No one here has ever even insinuated the same for Palestinian sources, even though I find their validity extremely questionable.

Otherwise, I have also thousands of pro Palestine sources.

Some of which you have already used, such as http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134 .

You claimed that Palestinian teach their kids hate against Jews.

And you sir are a fine example. Look at your views of Judaism and Zionism:

Surely, it has something to do with Jews/Zionism culture ….which based on superiority of Jews and racism against the native people.

I answered you, because I completed my studies in Palestine. “Israeli civil administration of Judea and Samaria" who was printing these textbooks before 1994 as I mentioned many stories and my personal experience. I challenge you to prove the opposite..

How can I possibly prove the opposite when you do not give any details? Like I said, it's up to the individual to judge how trustworthy your accounts here. I did not even include my personal opinion on the integrity of that story.

How Israel could let anti Jews books while they responsible about the education system completely?

After the Oslo Accords the PA had full control over what was in the textbooks. This reminds me - you claimed they had Israel on the maps - I claim they showed the entire area as Palestine, with no mention of Israel.

Even the teachers and people who worked in education got their salaries through Israeli authority.

As I said, Israel did more for the Palestinians than all Arab nations combined.

After 1994, EU who sponsors printing the textbooks after the Israeli check them.

Israel had no control over the contents of the textbooks, even if it was made available to it officially.

klusener provided international link about Palestinian education upon your request then you ignored that.

How did I ignore it exactly? I responded by giving a list of several articles that say the opposite. In contrast, you did not answer my first question about the picture of an Israeli father and son who you claimed was learning to kill Palestinians, nor have you answered my question on top of what list was Shamir present, nor have you responded to my request that you support the your slanderous claim "most of Zionists leaders who established Israel started their life by terrorism and murdering innocent people", should I continue?

I do not want to repeat, please do not scatter the direction of the discussion.

As you can see, my way of discussion is very methodic - I quote a relevant part of your post, and include my reply directly below it, so that it doesn't scatter.

We are here to understand different views and I wish everyone provide accepted sources to support his views.

Are you really here to understand me? I think not.

 

[Bilal]

- Palestinian were alliance of UK (the same as the rest of Arab nations) against their Turkish brothers.. without the Arab revolution in 1917, UK would never occupy Palestine. I am against the contribution of Ottoman Empire in 1WW, but it is not business who should win.

- I did not say that Jews should not buy lands... Also I am not against creating Jews State in any empty area , but I am against any foreign nation invade my country and want to establish another State for one community ignoring the rights of Palestinian nation who live on his land for thousands of years.

Suppose an Islamic or another Arab nation decided to take my country, I am sure the Palestinian will fight back by all their force ... it is not war with Jews ... it is rule of nature to protect your homeland from any foreign invaders. Jews are welcomed as citizens … but surely they are not welcomed as military groups who consider their immigration is part of Zionism strategy.

Ok, so you're saying Britain shouldn't have won WW1, the Ottomans should still have been in control of Israel, Jews shouldn't have been able to buy land, they shouldn't have "fended [EDIT:typo] for [/EDIT] themselves" (that is, they should have been weak enough for the Arabs with THEIR tanks and planes to kill them) and the world would be a much safer place without Israel - is that it?

 

[Bilal]

It is funny how you mix the potions of Palestinian and Israeli ...

Palestinian one of the most ancient cultures on the Earth (Jericho was built 10000 years ago) , Jerusalem, Nablus , Yafa , Acca , Gaza ... were built 5000 to 7000 years ago ... while the god created the Jews 3000 years ago.

Palestinian culture is results of all great civilizations in history : Kannan / Phoenicians ,
Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Arab, Christianity, Islam .. and even Jews. While, those Jews settlers are just religious communities came from different nations...

Russian Jews belong to Russian (White)

Iranian Jews belong to Persian race

Ethiopian Jews belong to African race ...

Till now these communities are separated and the only thing unite them is their hate to Palestinian.

Thanks, here's a few others that say the opposite: http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks

I think you misunderstood my comment. I think his English is very good. Maybe you expect me to be hostile, so you interpret my comments in a manner that fits you misconceptions. I'm just a left-wing Israeli whose tired of preaching to other Israelis while Palestinians are foolishly throwing away every chance for peace this miserable area has.
My Arabic leaves a lot to be desired, they do teach it at school but I didn't study the first years here, so I couldn't pick it up. They added Mahmoud Darwish to the literature curriculum, and I assure you we study plenty of Muslim and Palestinian history - of course everyone interprets differently what they are tought. Palestinians don't teach Hebrew but many of them know it fluently as the result of the occupation - not from the military, but because they've been working in Israel, with Israelis for over 3 decades now.

1. What would you describe as "Palestinian culture"? There are many different groups of Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories - there's Christians, Muslims, Druze, Cherkes, Shomronites... there's Palestinians of Egyptian origin, Syrian origin, Lebanese, Bedouins, there's tribes that were brought here by the Romans as slaves, there's Arabs with blue eyes and blonde hair (apparently because of the crusaders) - there's no distinct Palestinian culture - it's a historical mix n' match. If there is a Palestinian identity, it is defined only by the conflicts of the 20th century, which is why any historical right to the land is meaningless. We need to come up with a solution, not undo ancient crimes. Unfortunately, everyone is so busy catching up on their history they've forgotten to look to the future.
2. Israelis too are a historical mix n' match - Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, England, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Persia, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, India, Egypt, Ethioia, Morocco, Tunisia are some of the places we've all been for the past centuries. Those who came from Arab countries are very similar in culture and manners, quite opposite from those from the European diaspora. Israeli culture is a mix of East and West - hard to define almost as much as the Palestinian one. The emigrants who came later blame those who accepted them for trying to mould them into their shape, for trying to erase their culture - just like the Palestinians claim we try to do unto them. I understand all sides, but I think that we should all quit whinning and trying to win sympathy and GET OFF OUR ASSES and do something to make our side less violent. I do my bit, but it's hard to convince people if the other side doesn't do the same. You don't hear about it, but almost every day the security forces foil http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/570886.html to disrupt the peace. You only hear about the one in a hundred that they miss, and then the race for world sympathy is once again on, and every side becomes further entrenched in their concept of "historical justice".
Like our dear friend stoned pointed out, we don't all look the same.
Yes, I don't think I got your point.

 

[Bilal]

These quotes in early 70s, short time before his death. All the settlements he mentioned are built after 1948.

He mentio

Since the quote is a quarter of a century old, he certainly knew precisely nothing about what has happened in the past 25 years when he said it.

 

[Bilal]

This site belongs to Turks-American community. It should be neutral because I read news about Israeli travel companies. If it is anti Israel, how could Israeli companies used it to spread information about them?

((Car Rentals in Israel
Car rental deals in Israel at great prices. Reserve online today.))

Some of which you have already used, such as http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050312073310134 .

.

 

[Yonoz]

- First Russian Jews arrived to Palestine as refugees. They run away after Russian claimed that a Jew who murdered their Cesar.

Most Jews who arrived in Palestine were refugees - let's not get into that whole persecution thing okay?

- How you claim Jews lived in Desert land? Betah Teqwa (near Tel Aviv) and Hudaira (in the north) are the most fertile lands in Palestine. Palestine is fertile land since thousands of years.

Read my post again. I said that the early settlers did settle in inhabitable areas (Hadera existed as a khan, a road-stop for quite a while) and only after those centres were established could they start settlements in the uninhabitable areas, such as the swamplands all around Hadera and the northern parts of the Negev Desert. Israel is more than just Hadera and Petah-Tikva, you know.

- I agree that the Jews immigrants brought new trees from Europe which consumes a lot of water; therefore they stole all the water of Syrian Golan heights, 85% of water of WB and water of South Lebanon ….. Moreover, they still need more water!

Oh please...

Native people knew about your new trees centuries ago since Kanaan / Phoenicians and crusaders wars. But they knew that the ecological system and water resources in Palestine are not satisfy for these new types of trees …. So they were not enthusiastic to plant it. While European Jews who still love their origin homeland wanted to convert Palestine into part of green Europe by using their military forces to steal the water resources of Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.

It is not wonderful work to plant trees, which consumes a lot of water and cultivated some deserts areas by stealing the resources of other nations. If you pour the water resources of Golan heights, South Lebanon (Wazani river) , Jordan valley (West Bank and Jordan) into desert, it will convert to beautiful forest … but you will leave millions of people suffering from shortage of water.

When does Dr. Evil come in?

During Crusaders wars, European brought these trees, but after few years.. they could not get any economical advantages .. So they asked all Palestinian farmers to retun back and to cultivate their lands so both communities can survive. Of course Israel does not need that, because they can get water by F16 if it is necessary.

((Remember, in 1961, Israel bombed Syrian dam to ban them from using their water, also they send several warnings to Lebanon , because they wanted to provide drinking water for Wazani area from Lebanese river)).

You sure like turning facts around don't you? It wasn't a dam, it was a series of canals on the slopes of the Golan Heights that were meant to divert the water coming from there from reaching the Sea of Galilee, where Israel gets nearly all of its water, to the Yarmuch river, that flows directly into the Jordan river, thus depriving Israel of its water supply. Those semi-built canals still exist today, covered in vegetation, you can barely trace them when looking up at the Golan Heights from the Sea of Galilee.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Yonoz,

I think both of us live in war zone, so it is impossible to convince each other, so let the other (from outside Palestine/Israel) to contribute ...Please do not take my discussion personal against you. I wish we could have peace one day and then we can discuss more peacefully... believe me, I have many Jews/Israeli friends and I admire them, so no need to start to attack our nations. Believe me or not, I care about victims of both sides and I pray for peace always, but I DO believe in my ideas... because it is my daily life under occupation.

Best wishes for you and your family..

Lets the people who live out the conflict ask if they have any questions, then I and Yonoz can show the two sides of the story.

 

[klusener]

Some articles from neutral sources (have no connection with Palestine and Israel) about MEMRI:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html

No need to show the link of MEMRI (which is established by radical Israeli ).

yonoz, I am sorry buddy, as much as you refuse to believe him, he is right in this case.

The President and Founder of MEMRI is Yigal Carmon, who was a colonel in the Israel Defense Forces. If a general from the Palestinian army started a group called Israel media watch, would you accept that it would provide reliable views of both sides of the conflict?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Carmon (neutral source - wikipedia)

 

[Yonoz]

Again ...
This is what your first PM said not me. I do believe he knew more about the situation than you:

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

I believe you're interpreting this in the wrong way. The atmosphere during the war of independence was not like it is today. Israel, less than one day old, with no regular army, was attacked by Arab armies that outnumbered, outtrained and outequiped it. Furthermore, they were aided by the some of the locals - its very existence was in jeopardy, and no one thought about refugees and occupied territories. Since some villages participated in the fighting against it, once they were taken by Jewish forces the inhabitants chose to leave because of their own fears or because they were encouraged to. Those who were peaceful remain on their lands to this day and are full Israeli citizens. Apart from Deir Yassin, there were no acts of unnecessary violence against them - intimidation, perhaps, but not the murders that you accuse of. If anything, this quote shows Ben-Gurion's sensitivity to the problem, but in no way does he recognise that any unnecessary evil was done. There were also Jewish settlements that were evacuated, and sometimes annihilated, but no one even thinks about claiming these places back. One can only imagine what would have happened to them had the Arab armies taken them prior to their evacuation.
Today, Israel is preparing a mass eviction of settlers from the Gaza strip. Entire families, businesses, places of worship, graveyards and homes will be moved, aparently forcefuly, by their own country for the sake of the possibility of peace. Have the Palestinians ever made such a concession? They cannot even accept that those who fought against Israel in the war of independence had no way of coexisting with the Israeli State. Furthermore, they cannot even abandon the idea of violence against civilians.

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.)

Again, you're taking things out of context. Ben-Gurion is talking about Arabs, referring to them in general. He had no knowledge then of the Palestinian problem - he saw, like everyone else, the Palestinians as parts of the entities of Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. Today things are different - there is a genuine Palestinian entity that can choose to live alongside Israel peacefully - but apparently they are not willing to accept the concessions that are needed in order to make that happen.

These quotes display the ability of Ben-Gurion to look at matters from a different perspective, to try and understand the reasons for the hostility against Israel. When did Arab/Palestinian leaders ever display such sincerity, such honesty?

 

[Yonoz]

I do believe in peace

Do you really? Why do you try and defend the use of violence then?

...and I understand the suffering of Jews through centuries, but we should not pay the price of crimes of others.

When were you asked to pay for the crimes of others? You said yourself, Jews should have been allowed to come to Palestine and purchase land. Why did the locals react violently then?

The key of peace is in the hand of Israel:

Quite a simplistic view, don't you think? Do you honestly believe the Palestinians have done everything to allow Peace to finally come to the region? I do not deny Israel has some responsibilities, but the Palestinians have a lot more to accomplish - the dismantling of terrorist organisations for one.

- One democratic State with equal rights for all people ... Everyone free in his religion.

Are you saying Israel should annex the occupied territories? It is a democratic state with equal rights for all people.

- Two States, one Jews State and the other Democratic Palestinian State for all religions...

That's what we're trying to achieve. It is also the official Israeli State policy, implemented in the peace treaties and disengagement plan.

If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews cities who do not like to share State with Palestinian and leave us alone..

Very simplistic. Who decides where these walls will pass? Will they form an international border? You make it seem as if Palestinians have no problem with the separation fence. That is also what a lot of Israelis would want, but have you ever considered the consequences for the Palestinian economy and welfare of ceasing Palestinians from working in Israel?

Every peace lover Jews is welcome in this democratic Sates. Jerusalem is holy city for the three religions and is the spirit of Palestine, so it should be one capital of one democratic State in the Holy Land or capital of Palestinian democratic State represents the three religions... of course Israel can get Western Jerusalem, but no peace without Eastern Jerusalem.

And why is that? Why should we give away the holiest of our sites to a Palestinian state, while Jerusalem is never even mentioned in the Kuran?

Simply, we have no patient anymore to live under military Israeli occupation. Live and leave the others to live …

I wish you'd read that last sentence like I read it... How many suicide bombers live by that line?

 

[Yonoz]

- Palestinian were alliance of UK (the same as the rest of Arab nations) against their Turkish brothers..

There was no Palestinian nation back then. What Palestinian leader was there to sign an alliance with the British then? If the Turks were your brothers, why did you ally against them?

without the Arab revolution in 1917, UK would never occupy Palestine.

What qualifies you to state that as a fact? Have you traveled to a parallel universe in which no Arab revolution occured? I don't think that had the British never taken over Palestine they would not have won the war - and therefor they may have taken the territory in the resulting treaties.

I am against the contribution of Ottoman Empire in 1WW, but it is not business who should win.

That's nice of you.

- I did not say that Jews should not buy lands...

You emphasized the text in the article that said because they did it the world is a less peaceful place.

Also I am not against creating Jews State in any empty area , but I am against any foreign nation invade my country and want to establish another State for one community ignoring the rights of Palestinian nation who live on his land for thousands of years.

The UN division plan called for a Palestinian state, and that was accepted by both the UK and the Jewish leadership - we wanted a Palestinian state. It is the Arab countries and the local Arab leaders that opposed it. Had they accepted it, Palestinians would have had an independent state as early as 1947, with an international Jerusalem - but they were greedy, and couldn't live with the idea of a Jewish nation. It is only natural then, that in the ensuing war Israel should have tried to establish the best borders it should - there are no double standards in war.

Suppose an Islamic or another Arab nation decided to take my country, I am sure the Palestinian will fight back by all their force ...

Well, they ruled the occupied territories for 20 years, and no one fought back - it was much easier to accept their generous weapons and training and kill innocent Israeli civilians in cross-border raids.

it is not war with Jews ... it is rule of nature to protect your homeland from any foreign invaders.

What if those "invaders" see it as their homeland too, and try to establish it by peaceful means? Is it still a rule of nature? "Rules of nature" are usually an excuse for inhumane behaviour. It's time Palestinians rose above their "nature" and start obeying the rules of man - such as the right to live.

Jews are welcomed as citizens … but surely they are not welcomed as military groups who consider their immigration is part of Zionism strategy.

That's quite an oxymoron... Jews are welcome but they are not welcome if they have a strategy of immigration? Do you consider Zionism evil?

 

[Yonoz]

It is funny how you mix the potions of Palestinian and Israeli ...

Yes, the real world can be funny sometimes.

Palestinian one of the most ancient cultures on the Earth (Jericho was built 10000 years ago) , Jerusalem, Nablus , Yafa , Acca , Gaza ... were built 5000 to 7000 years ago ... while the god created the Jews 3000 years ago.

The Palestinians of today are of many different origins. The towns you mentioned were not built by their ancestors, rather they were overtaken many times in the violent history of the middle east - but all that is meaningless to me, I don't think anyone today should be fighting over something that happened thousands of years ago. I do not believe in God, but do you really think Jews were created out of thin air? Rather, the Jewish religion was formed 3000 years ago, out of which emerged Christianity and later Islam. We share the same ancestors, Jews and Palestinians. I could go for hours about ancient history but is it really relevant to the violence of today?

Palestinian culture is results of all great civilizations in history : Kannan / Phoenicians ,
Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Arab, Christianity, Islam .. and even Jews. While, those Jews settlers are just religious communities came from different nations...

Russian Jews belong to Russian (White)

Iranian Jews belong to Persian race

Ethiopian Jews belong to African race ...

Apparently you are unfamiliar with Jewish history. Like I stated before, it's useless to start discussing ancient history but trust me when I say Jews didn't just appear one day in all these different countries and decide to take Palestine out of pure evil. Or maybe you won't believe that...

Till now these communities are separated and the only thing unite them is their hate to Palestinian.

Right... We're just plain evil and our sole purpose is to create misery for the wonderful Palestinians - is that your idea of working towards peace? Spreading hateful lies?

 

[Yonoz]

This site belongs to Turks-American community. It should be neutral because I read news about Israeli travel companies. If it is anti Israel, how could Israeli companies used it to spread information about them?

Read my post again, I was referring to the article, which is one big puddle of venom.

 

[Yonoz]

Please do not take my discussion personal against you.

You mean this is not personal?

You seem new member, and I would like to make comments on your way of discussion before answering your posts.
...
Please keep the level of the discussion acceptable by providing trusted sources by both sides.

I wish we could have peace one day and then we can discuss more peacefully...

We can, and are doing so right now.

believe me, I have many Jews/Israeli friends and I admire them,

Where have I heard that before?

so no need to start to attack our nations.

I never attacked your nation. My point has always been that Palestinians should do more on their side to achieve peace in the region. If you had used your skills to promote non-violence in Palestinian society rather than try and smear Israel as much as you possibly can, I would be very happy. Yet you constantly channel your energies in a negative fashion, that harms both sides.

Believe me or not, I care about victims of both sides and I pray for peace always, but I DO believe in my ideas...

Have you considered the possibility that your ideas are an obstacle to the peace you pray for? Peace needs more than prayers, I'm afraid. It requires brave actions, like protesting against your own government, like being out there in the zones of conflict and making sure your side does as little harm as possible. It requires patience as your own people accuse you of treason, only because you try and do what's best for them. It requires strength to keep your faith as people around you die because of senseless violence that the other side refuses to abandon. But most of all, it requires compassion, forgiveness and empathy.

because it is my daily life under occupation.

The occupation takes its toll on all of us, Bilal. The only way to end it is to channel the negative energies away from the perpetual circle of violence. Accusations and excuses will only increase it more.

Best wishes for you and your family..

Same to you and your family, and keep safe.

 

[Yonoz]

Some articles from neutral sources (have no connection with Palestine and Israel) about MEMRI:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html



yonoz, I am sorry buddy, as much as you refuse to believe him, he is right in this case.

The President and Founder of MEMRI is Yigal Carmon, who was a colonel in the Israel Defense Forces. If a general from the Palestinian army started a group called Israel media watch, would you accept that it would provide reliable views of both sides of the conflict?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Carmon (neutral source - wikipedia)

I completely agree that MEMRI has some agenda behind it - why would anyone with no agenda start an organization like that? But so do newspapers and news channels, and users on internet forums. Even I have an agenda, and I have no problem stating it.
Which is also why I previously said with regards to MEMRI, you have to separate fact from opinion. There's no substitute source for translated Arab media, and like it or not, a lot of the content on Arab media (especially in, but not limited to, the states of Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia) incites against Israel and the US. The guys in MEMRI may put things in a negative light, but they don't make facts up. Those cartoons, quotations and video clips are real ones from real, mainstream Arab media. I can say this whole-heartedly because those kind of things have crossed my life's path in the past.
MEMRI also gave me the chance to witness positive things, such as the discussion of the previously-taboo women's rights in Saudi-Arabia and education on the firing of guns in celebrations in Jordan.

 

[klusener]

Of course, but there are things like that in every country by which I mean cartoons or articles critical of U.S. support of Israel, I am just wondering why they don't also translate the positive steps or show the positive cartoons in Arab newspapers..

 

[Yonoz]

Of course, but there are things like that in every country by which I mean cartoons or articles critical of U.S. support of Israel, I am just wondering why they don't also translate the positive steps or show the positive cartoons in Arab newspapers..

There is a difference between ciriticism and incitement. You don't see any palestinian leader eating Israeli babies in mainstream Jewish or US newspapers.
Reform in the Arab and Muslim World
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=58151

 

[Yonoz]

Here's an interesting piece: http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=58051

 

[Bilal]

I am sorry that you twist the facts again . I tried to find common things and peaceful discusion, but it seems useless with Zionist. … I am not surprise also, because even if we give all ME to Zionists and leave to China , they will ask us to pay for ‘’renting’’ our countries for 7000 years!

I believe you're interpreting this in the wrong way. The atmosphere during the war of independence was not like it is today. Israel, less than one day old, with no regular army, was attacked by Arab armies that outnumbered, outtrained and outequiped it. Furthermore, they were aided by the some of the locals - its very existence was in jeopardy, and no one thought about refugees and occupied territories. Since some villages participated in the fighting against it, once they were taken by Jewish forces the inhabitants chose to leave because of their own fears or because they were encouraged to. Those who were peaceful remain on their lands to this day and are full Israeli citizens. Apart from Deir Yassin, there were no acts of unnecessary violence against them - intimidation, perhaps, but not the murders that you accuse of. If anything, this quote shows Ben-Gurion's sensitivity to the problem, but in no way does he recognise that any unnecessary evil was done. There were also Jewish settlements that were evacuated, and sometimes annihilated, but no one even thinks about claiming these places back. One can only imagine what would have happened to them had the Arab armies taken them prior to their evacuation.))

It is really funny how you changed the facts on ground.

-Palestinian were fight for independence of their country from UK and illegal militants Zionists immigrants. Israel has no moral justification to be created by destruction of other nation. In fact you can not built your civilization on the bodies of kids of others. Zionists are similar to crusaders they will not be able to survive in peace because their ideology is based on horrible mixing between religious myth and racism.

- You blame few thousands of Arabs for fighting with Palestine? Please read what behind the lines and be innocent to show the truth :

1) Arab nations involved in the war after the barbaric massacre of Dair Yassin by the Zionists , who murdered all the people of this town and raped many girls in public during military marsh in W. Jerusalem.

2) More than 95% of Zionist are from another countries. They joined the war to kill the Palestinian, so why you want the rest of the Arab watching, while all the Zionist communities in the world declared war to destroy Palestine and to establish their ''State '' based on religious myth? Could you blame the American for their war to save Europe from NAZI? or to fight the Japanese?

Here is how the Zionists started this war against Palestinian civilians which forced the people to fight back. Palestinian decide to fight back after 3 weeks of organised attacks and masscres against Plaetsinian civilians by Zionists murders (Lihi, Etzel and Haganah):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_war
((Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.
On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces.))

Here why the Arab nations decide to help the Palestinian against those invaders:

((Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict.))
- Here is comprative study between the forces of both sides. This show the large gaop between the Zionist forces and Arab forces:

In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.))

((

Today, Israel is preparing a mass eviction of settlers from the Gaza strip. Entire families, businesses, places of worship, graveyards and homes will be moved, aparently forcefuly, by their own country for the sake of the possibility of peace. Have the Palestinians ever made such a concession? They cannot even accept that those who fought against Israel in the war of independence had no way of coexisting with the Israeli State. Furthermore, they cannot even abandon the idea of violence against civilians.

Settlers are criminals not civilians. Also those settlers are less than 4% of the settlers of West Bank and Gaza. Building settlements in the occupied lands of Palestine and Syria is wrong message for ME nations. It is proof that Zionist will not hesitate to expand the borders of their ‘’religious –biblical-State’’ which based all on myth. May be the crusaders have more reasons to occupy Palestine than Zionist.

((

Again, you're taking things out of context. Ben-Gurion is talking about Arabs, referring to them in general. He had no knowledge then of the Palestinian problem - he saw, like everyone else, the Palestinians as parts of the entities of Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon. Today things are different - there is a genuine Palestinian entity that can choose to live alongside Israel peacefully - but apparently they are not willing to accept the concessions that are needed in order to make that happen.

These quotes display the ability of Ben-Gurion to look at matters from a different perspective, to try and understand the reasons for the hostility against Israel. When did Arab/Palestinian leaders ever display such sincerity, such honesty?

Ben –Gurion mentioned the reality. He even named the Jews towns that built in the same place of Palestinian cities. What he said is the truth , and early Zionist did not feel shame to do that. They came from other countries to destroy another nation and to steal its homeland. It is funny that current Zionist wants to provide moral cover to their ideology which considered as form of racism by UN from 1975 till 1991 (thanks to Bush the father who canceled this resolution).

 

[Bilal]

Do you really? Why do you try and defend the use of violence then?
When were you asked to pay for the crimes of others? You said yourself, Jews should have been allowed to come to Palestine and purchase land. Why did the locals react violently then?

Sorry I did not know that Mama Teresa and Mandela were the leaders of Israel! You blame the Palestinian for using violence? May be you kidding!

Man, every Israeli town is built over Lake of blood of Palestinian civilians. Check the history of every piece in what called Israel you will find behind it horrible pains and suffering. Who hear your comments will think that Israel is established by peace. Since the first Zionist put his feet on Palestinian land in 1917, and this part of the world did not live in peace. You feel pleasure to treat the other nations as slaves.


Arab are the most tolerated nations with Jews, till you surprise us in the beginning of 20th century. You destroyed the relations for many coming generations. You stole by force and terrorism another country and you blame the people for fighting back to protect their lives?

Quite a simplistic view, don't you think? Do you honestly believe the Palestinians have done everything to allow Peace to finally come to the region? I do not deny Israel has some responsibilities, but the Palestinians have a lot more to accomplish - the dismantling of terrorist organisations for one.

If there is occupation then we call it resistance not terrorists. The key of peace is in the hand of Zionist. From 1967 till 1993, there were no suicide bombers, no military attacks in Israel …, but what the Zionist offer? They even rejected to recognize the existence of Palestinian people.

Are you saying Israel should annex the occupied territories? It is a democratic state with equal rights for all people.

That's what we're trying to achieve. It is also the official Israeli State policy, implemented in the peace treaties and disengagement plan.[/Yonoz]

Of course you want to annex the occupied land but you do not want the people who live there for thousands of years, because they are not Jews. Annexing West Bank and Gaza means no superiority of Jews over others, this means you should:

-Cancel the racist law of return, which allowed ONLY person with Jews mother or those convert to Judiasm and accepted by Rabbi to return.

- No need to call it Jews State, because if we call USA as Christian State, then it will not be real democracy. Simply everyone free in his/her religion, and the State should be for all people.

In other words, you should declare the ‘’end of Zionism’’ or to reform it to be more peaceful and accept the others as human.

Very simplistic. Who decides where these walls will pass? Will they form an international border? You make it seem as if Palestinians have no problem with the separation fence. That is also what a lot of Israelis would want, but have you ever considered the consequences for the Palestinian economy and welfare of ceasing Palestinians from working in Israel?
And why is that? Why should we give away the holiest of our sites to a Palestinian state, while Jerusalem is never even mentioned in the Kuran??

- What called separation wall is NAZI tactic? You surround the Palestinian towns from all sides by wall and you disconnected the families because you want to secure the life of Jews settlers who live illegally in WB and Gaza.

- We are not happy to live under occupation, and human do not survive only by bread. Our freedom and dignity is the most important. Your claim that the wall on international border is misleading... this wall converts the Palestinian towns into large jails and stole 85% of water resources and 70% of the best agricultural lands.

-Please build the china great wall on borders and leave us alone.


Here is map and pictures of this wall:

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en


Is this map and pictures of wall or NAZI concentration camps?

http://www.4blacksheep.com/photos/separation_wall/

I wish you'd read that last sentence like I read it... How many suicide bombers live by that line?

Do you mean that suicide bombers are the root of the problems?

How many suicide bombers and attacks inside Israel from 1967 till 1994?

There are ''Zero attacks'' by suicide bombers or against Israeli civilians...

What Israel offer within this period:

- Massacre of (the day of Land) against the non Jews Israeli in 1976.
- Massacre of Hebron University, 1984 by Jews settlers.
- Massacre of Nahlin , 1988.
-Massacre of Eion Kara or Rishon Litzion against Palestinian workers on 15/05/1990.
- 4000 Palestinian victims in the fisrt Palestinian peaceful uprising 1987-1993.
-Destruction of thousands of houses.
-Building 200 settlements and stealing 60% of lands and 85% of water resources.

This means suicide bombers are not the source of the problem!

 

[Bilal]

There was no Palestinian nation back then. What Palestinian leader was there to sign an alliance with the British then? If the Turks were your brothers, why did you ally against them?

I did not hear that god sent nations from sky!

Every community of people live on common land can create new nation. We were called (Shami people) since thousands of years– Syrian, Palestinian, Jordanian and Lebanese … after colonist era, this nation divided into four nations.

If people of my town decided to create new nation called (Nabulsian nation-Nablus city) this is their rights and this is not means they came suddenly from sky!

If people of Californian decided to get independence to and to call themselves Californian nation … then they create new geopolitical constitution but without changing the demography.
People exist since thousands of years in their homeland, but the political position change, and thus we can hear new political names as indication of major geopolitical changes ….

What called Israeli nation is unique phenomenon:
- They were religious communities who have no common history or race since more than 2000 years.
- They have no common land, because they are parts from different nations. For example, Iraqi Jews have history in Iraq; he has the same color and the same culture. French Jews had history in France and he has the color …
- These different communities are united to make new nation and to steal the homeland of other nation who live there for thousands of years without any moral or logical justification, just based on jungle laws.

we wanted a Palestinian state. It is the Arab countries and the local Arab leaders that opposed it. Had they accepted it, Palestinians would have had an independent state as early as 1947, with an international Jerusalem - but they were greedy, and couldn't live with the idea of a Jewish nation. It is only natural then, that in the ensuing war Israel should have tried to establish the best borders it should - there are no double standards in war.

Show me any proof?

Well, they ruled the occupied territories for 20 years, and no one fought back - it was much easier to accept their generous weapons and training and kill innocent Israeli civilians in cross-border raids.

Do you mean that there are no innocent Palestinian? do you cry only for Israeli victims who lost their lives because they decide to live on stolen land in WB and Gaza and you ignore all those Palestinian victims?

Hitler murdered 6 Million Jews, while all Zionist victims from 1897 till 2004 around 21000. Among them, 18000 were killed in five wars with Arab countries...

Sharon murdered in Lebanon 1982 more than all its victims in one century of Zionism.

That's quite an oxymoron... Jews are welcome but they are not welcome if they have a strategy of immigration? Do you consider Zionism evil?

Why ONLY Jews are allowed to immigrate? What the reason behind that?

What about millions of Palestinian refugees?
Why Muslims and Christian can not immigrate also?

Of course (right wing of Zionism- including the current Israeli government) is evil. It is also crime against Jews people, who deserve to live in peace after the Holocaust.. they declared this injustice war in the name of Jews people who suffer a lot from racism and hate through centuries.

Palestinian and Jews do not deserve all this blood because of crazy ideas of Zionism.

 

[Bilal]

What if those "invaders" see it as their homeland too, and try to establish it by peaceful means? Is it still a rule of nature? "Rules of nature" are usually an excuse for inhumane behaviour. It's time Palestinians rose above their "nature" and start obeying the rules of man - such as the right to live.?

Do you mean ‘’rule of nature’’ is excuse also for NAZI to murdered millions of innocent people 2WW? Why you cry for Jews victims in 2WW, if Hitler murdered them based ‘’on rule of nature’’?

It is great at end to admit that Zionism ideology and creation of Israel based on ‘’rule of nature’’.

You found peaceful nation in Palestine. They work hard in their farms to educate their kids and get respectful life. Christian, Jews, Muslims, atheists.. live together in peace for centuries .. They welcomed all ‘’poor refugees’’ from different religions and communities in their peaceful homeland.

Suddenly, an Austrian Jews meet each other and decided to apply ‘’rule of nature’’ on this peaceful and weak nation (they also proposed the Uganda and Argentine (colored people) …. So they collaborate with imperialists, who believe in rule of nature and they invaded this peaceful nation and destroyed it!

After all, in the name of ‘’rule of nature ‘’ Zionists ask the Palestinian to surrender completely and to accept the facts on ground!

 

[Bilal]

The Palestinians of today are of many different origins. The towns you mentioned were not built by their ancestors, rather they were overtaken many times in the violent history of the middle east - but all that is meaningless to me, I don't think anyone today should be fighting over something that happened thousands of years ago. I do not believe in God, but do you really think Jews were created out of thin air? Rather, the Jewish religion was formed 3000 years ago, out of which emerged Christianity and later Islam. We share the same ancestors, Jews and Palestinians. I could go for hours about ancient history but is it really relevant to the violence of today?

I said before, I do not agree to ask the Jews to leave, but we should stop all this violent, hate and racism. Simply, you should see the Zionism and Israel in the real world, it is not logical to blame the Palestinian who is victims for everything. I do not care about the religion or color of my neighbor … and I am not appointed by god to judge people , everyone free in his life. All what I need , that my neighbor should not come one day to kick me from my house and to kill my kids because he believe in religious myth.
You also know that 90% of settlers of WB are extreme religious and they give very bad image about Jews. We rarely met peaceful Jews, but everyday we meet those bloody and religious settlers who want to kill us for fun.. and the Israeli soldiers feel happy to mistreat the Palestinian civilians everyday on checkpoints.

Please do not blame the Palestinian for having bad image about Israel, replace those settlers by peaceful Jews we will live in peace with them.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with Jewish history. Like I stated before, it's useless to start discussing ancient history but trust me when I say Jews didn't just appear one day in all these different countries and decide to take Palestine out of pure evil. Or maybe you won't believe that...

Right... We're just plain evil and our sole purpose is to create misery for the wonderful Palestinians - is that your idea of working towards peace? Spreading hateful lies?

I know Jews history and I highly respect them (please read my previous posts about contribution of Jews in ME civilisation). I am very angry from Zionism because of its crimes against Jews and Palestinian. We should not have all this hate and violence … we have many common things and we should build better future instead to live as Masters and slaves, because one side got support from USA!

 

[Bilal]

So what, You can read also for these Jews who ask for reformation of zionism and see it as the source of the troubles for Jews and Arab

http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/NaeimGiladi.cfm

There is a difference between ciriticism and incitement. You don't see any palestinian leader eating Israeli babies in mainstream Jewish or US newspapers.
Reform in the Arab and Muslim World
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=58151

 

[Bilal]

MEMRI and many Zionist sites (especially after 11/9) became new version of Zion protocols . They doing with Arab what anti Semite Russian and German did with them.

They show Arab as pure evil and root of troubles in all human history. They focus on speech or text from here and there to show the Arab in evil image …

In 30s, Hitler used this strategy against the German Jews. His propaganda machine used to focus on quotes of some Jews who live in USA and UK to tell the German that Jews want to annihilate the German race, so our war with them is to be or not to be!

I completely agree that MEMRI has some agenda behind it - why would anyone with no agenda start an organization like that? But so do newspapers and news channels, and users on internet forums. Even I have an agenda, and I have no problem stating it.
Which is also why I previously said with regards to MEMRI, you have to separate fact from opinion. There's no substitute source for translated Arab media, and like it or not, a lot of the content on Arab media (especially in, but not limited to, the states of Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia) incites against Israel and the US. The guys in MEMRI may put things in a negative light, but they don't make facts up. Those cartoons, quotations and video clips are real ones from real, mainstream Arab media. I can say this whole-heartedly because those kind of things have crossed my life's path in the past.
MEMRI also gave me the chance to witness positive things, such as the discussion of the previously-taboo women's rights in Saudi-Arabia and education on the firing of guns in celebrations in Jordan.

 

[Yonoz]

I am sorry that you again twist the truth again and show your arrogance.

Funny, since I first read this thread I wanted to say the same about your posts. Didn't want to make it personal though - guess it's too late for that now.

I tried to find common things and peaceful discusion, but it seems useless with Zionist.

What common things did you try to find? My discussion is peaceful - in spite of your efforts to inflame me. As an example, you still use the word "Zionist" in a derogatory manner. I'll ask you again - what is your definition of Zionism?

I am not surprise also, because even if we give all ME to Zionists and leave to China , they will ask us to pay for ‘’renting’’ our countries for 7000 years!

Are comments like this one your idea of "trying to find common things and peaceful discussion"?

It is really funny how you changed the facts on ground.

I present my perspective of the conflict. Other parties may decide for themselves what to make of it. That is the way discussions of this sort work.

Palestinian were fight for independence of their country from UK and illegal militants Zionists immigrants.

What was illegal or militant about Jewish immigration prior to the Jerusalem pogrom of 1920? Even if there was illegal immigration, does it justify violence? Does anything short of an unresolvable threat ever justify violence?

Israel has no moral justification tocraeted by destruction opf other

No one claimed it has. Israel was founded in accordance with the UN Partition Plan. It is the Arab nations that attacked it with the expressed aim of annihilating it, less than a day after it declared independence.

In fact you can not built your civilization on the bodies of kids of otherfireners militasnts called ‘’Zionists”. Zionists are similar to crusaders they will not be able to survive in peace because their ideology is based on horrible mixing between religious myth and racism.

There you go with your "common things and peaceful discussion" again.

You blame few thousands of Arabs for fighting with Palestine? Please read what behind the lines and be innocent to show the truth :

1) Arab nations involved in the war after the barbaric massacre of Dair Yassin by the Zionists , who murdered all the people of this town and raped many girls in public during military marsh in W. Jerusalem.

There you go mentioning Deir Yassin again. Of course you would, since that's about the only display of unnecessary violence from the Jewish side. Furthermore, I have acknowledged that fact several times already - it's time you acknowledged the violence on your side prior to that incident, which surpasses the acts of Deir Yassin a thousandfold. Remember this is during a time of hostilities (hostilities that were initiated by Arabs), and was perpetrated by small extremist factions against the position of the Haganah. Furthermore, Arab leaders expressed their intentions to annihilate Israel long before its declaration of independence and long before Deir-Yassin. As a matter of fact, if you actually read the wikipedia article, you'll see Iraqi and Syrian troops were attempting to enter the village - which is quite far away from Syria and Iraq - prior to the attack. Actually, Arab armies were fully prepared to invade as soon as Israel declared independence during that time. What rapes are you talking about? What military parade?

2) More than 95% of Zionist are from another countries.

Really? Are you saying 95% of all Zionists were born before 1948? Surely more than 5% of all Zionists are younger than 58. I guess now you'll say that you meant their parents - well, if we go back far enough, 100% of all Zionists are from Palestine. That's why I focus on the future, rather than on the past. If you try settling this argument by determining who has first right to the land you'll end up in a dead-lock. Then again, it seems you are not interested in settling this argument.

They joined the war to kill the Palestinian, so why you want the rest of the Arab watching, while all the Zionist communities I the world declare war to destroy Palestine and to establish their ''State '' based on religious myth?

What war on the Palestinians? When did all the Zionist communities in the world declare war to destroy Palestine? All they wanted to do was establish a homeland in peaceful means. Aren't all religions myths? Truth is in the eye of the beholder.

Could you blame the American for their war to save Europe from NAZI? or to fight the Japanese?

No. Are you comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and WW2 Japan?

Here is how the Zionists started this war against Palestinian civilians which forced the people to fight back, Plaeslestinian decide to fight back after 3 weeks of organista attacks and msscres against Plaetsinian civilians by Zionists murders (Lihi, Etzel and Haganah):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_war

You know very well there were plenty of hostilities before 1948. Still, let me quote from that same article:

At this time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews and 71,500 Christians. However, this area became the center of Zionist aspirations for a Jewish homeland or state, and gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants. (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe) This immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs.

Under the uncompromising leadership of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and most of the survivors were driven out. During the Great Uprising from 1936 to 1939, Arab general strikes and riots targeted both the British and Jews alike.

There it is in plain terms: "Jewish immigration drew immediate and violent opposition from local Arabs". And this is well before Deir Yassin that you like mentioning so much (maybe you don't like it, but I guess if I had only one incident to prove my point I'd overuse it too).

((Right after the UN partition plan was approved, heavy fighting broke out in Palestine. The British Army frequently intervened, but as the end of British involvement in Palestine drew nearer and attacks on them by Irgun and Lehi increased, their intervention grew steadily more inconsistent and reluctant.

This just goes to further prove that Lehi and the "Irgun" were not acting in the best interests of the Jewish population, which is why they were disliked so much by it.

On December 18 the Palmach, the kibbutz-based force of the Haganah commanded by Moshe Dayan, attacked the village of Khissas. Three weeks later the first Arab irregulars arrived and the Arab leadership began to organize Palestinians in order to wage guerrilla war against the Jewish forces.))

So you agree that Arab nations participated in the fighting before the Israel was even founded by sending irregulars to organize and train the locals.

Here why the Arab nations decide to help the Palestinian against those invaders:

((Some of these villages along Jerusalem road were attacked and demolished. The April 9 massacre of at least 109 Arabs at the village of Deir Yassin inflamed public opinion in Arab countries, providing those countries further reason for sending regular troops into the conflict.))

Reading your quotation of the article, I got a feeling you missed something (inadvertently, I'm sure) - why else would they write "Some of these villages"? They must have made a reference to them in a previous sentence. So I went and checked, and I recommend everyone who read this does too, since Bilal makes it seem as if they were attacked out of the blue for no reason other than pure cruelty. One thing for sure, you contradicted once again your previous claim that Arab nations were involved in the fighting only because of Deir Yassin, since the article states it gave them further reason.

Here is comprative study between the forces of both sides. This show the large gaop between the Zionist forces and Arab forces:

In fact, the Arab forces were inferior to the IDF. By mid-May 1948 the IDF was fielding 65,000 troops; by early spring 1949, 115,000. The Arab armies had an estimated 40,000 troops in July 1948, rising to 55,000 in October 1948, and slightly more by the spring of 1949. Of the Arab aircraft, only less than a dozen fighters and three to four bombers saw action, the rest were unserviceable. With only a dozen or so airplanes the IDF achieved air superiority by the fall of 1948. And the IDF had superiority in firepower and knowledgeable personnel, many of whom had seen action in WWII. Source: "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001", Benny Morris (2001), pp. 217-18.))

Once again, selective quotation. Everyone should read that part of the article themselves and make up their own minds. I will say one thing though: Arab armies had superior firepower, with 40 tanks (compared to 1 without gun by the Jewish forces) and 140 artillery pieces (compared to 5 Jewish ones, without sights). Not to mention the amount of armored cars they had. Most of the Arab armies' weapons were WW2 surplus, and they had a very good share of experienced leaders themselves. The advantage the Jewish forces had was that they were fighting for their homes and lives. From that same article:

In the north, the Syrian army was blocked in Kibbutz Dgania, where the settlers managed to stop the Syrian armored forces only with light weapons. One tank that was disabled by a Molotov cocktail is still presented at the Kibbutz. Later, an artillery bombardment, made by cannons jury-rigged from 19th century museum pieces, led to the withdrawal of the Syrians from the Kibbutz.

BTW, those are 3 of the 5 artillery pieces mentioned above. The other two were brought from Mexico, and had those big old wooden wheels like you see in western movies. You can see them in a museum in Jaffa.

Settlers are criminals not civilians.

What settlers do you mean? Some modern day settlers I consider criminals also, but they are all civilians nonetheless - a civilian can be a criminal too, you know. I spend a good share of my time confronting them. When have you last confronted a Palestinian criminal?

Also those settlers are less than 4% of the settlers of West Bank and Gaza.

I didn't understand that sentence.

Building settlements in the occupied lands of Palestine and Syria is wrong message for ME nations.

I agree completely.

It is proof that Zionist will not hesitate to expand the borders of their ‘’religious –biblical-State’’ which based all on myth.

Nope, it is a proof that the worst case against Israel is that it is building houses. I agree it's not that simple, but you can't justify the violence and hatred directed at it. Moreover, attacking Israel only strengthens the public view of the settlers. Violence brings about only more violence. Hatred strengthens people's sense of fear and nationalism.

May be the crusaders have more reasons to occupy Palestine than Zionist.

I don't know, it's been a while since the crusades and while the west seems to have gotten over the war with the Muslim world, it sure seems you haven't.

Ben –Gurion mentioned the reality. He even named the Jews towns that built in the same place of Palestinian cities.

Funny, those names are pretty similar. Doesn't sound like something I would do if I wanted to wipe all memories of those places.

What he said is the truth , and early Zionist did not feel shame to do that.

You interpret it in a way you see truthful, I interpret it in my way and to me it is just as truthful, but carries another meaning.

They came from other countries to destroy another nation and to steal its homeland.

So when did this nation ever govern this homeland? I even showed that when asked to elect a Palestinian representative for the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 they adopted this resolution:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

This nation doesn't seem too eager on independence to me. Maybe they don't mind having other Arabs rule them, but they sure have something against Jews, even if they set up an education system for them.

It is funny that current Zionist wants to provide moral cover to their ideology.

Why is it funny? Do you believe Zionists have no morals?

 

[Yonoz]

Sorry I did not know that Mama Teresa and Mandela were the leaders of Israel!

I ask why you defend violence and this is your answer? I can clearly see now you are not interested in peace one bit.

You blame the Palestinian for using violence? May be you kidding!

I guess this must be a really good joke then: Palestinian Terrorism

Man, every Israeli town is built over Lake of blood of Palestinian civilians.

You sound like a true man of peace.

Check the history of every piece in what called Israel you will find behind it horrible pains and suffering.

Pain and suffering of all types of people, Bilal, not just Palestinian. You see things in a very single-minded fashion.

Who hear your comments will think that Israel is established by peace.

If there would not have been such violence resistance to the peaceful immigration, it would have been.

Since the first Zionist put his feet on Palestinian land in 1917, and this part of the world did not live in peace.

I thought you mentioned earlier Jewish settlers from prior to 1897. I guess the crusades were scouts camping, and Lawrence of Arabia was a movie star.

You feel pleasure to treat the other nations as slaves.

That's a very peaceful comment.

Arab are the most tolerated nations with Jews, till you surprise us in the beginning of 20th century. You destroyed the relations for many coming generations.

I'm sorry, I guess we should have stayed in all those other nations who were treating us so well. Who likes treating other nations as slaves now? Who likes superiority over others now? There are so many Arab states, but Jews shouldn't even be allowed to have one on a piece of land that was mostly uninhabitted before they cultivated it? Are we meant to forever live among other nations without ever knowing true independence, true equality, true safety?

You stole by force and terrorism another country and you blame the people for fighting back to protect their lives?

Yes, I can see how blowing up groups of kids outside nightclubs protects someone's life.

If there is occupation then we call it resistance not terrorists.

What magical transformation power this occupation has. I never thought that mass murder could be so easily explained.

The key of peace is in the hand of Zionist.

We already discussed this, the PA was offered everything Israel could afford under Arafat, but he chose the path of violence. Now that there's a real chance, it is up to Mahmoud Abbas to get terrorist organisations under control. Even though he hasn't, Israel is still pulling out of the Gaza Strip. I would say the Palestinians are getting a really good deal here.

From 1967 till 1993, there were no suicide bombers, no military attacks in Israel …, but what the Zionist offer? They even rejected to recognize the existence of Palestinian people.

I guess the Munich Massacre and the Sabena hijacking were perpetrated by the easter bunny, and that the Ma'alot Massacre was santa clause's doing.

What called separation wall is NAZI tactic? You surround the Palestinian towns from all sides by wall and you disconnected the families because you want to secure the life of Jews settlers who live illegally in WB and Gaza.

So why is this acceptable:

If you decide to separate in pure Jews State, then you can build the wall on the borders of Jews cities

Is it alright in your opinion for Jews to surrounded by fences but it's not alright for Palestinians?

We are not happy to live under occupation, and human do not survive only by bread.

I am not happy to live as a part of an occupation, but I'm even less happy to live under constant terrorism, persistent even as my leadership sits at the negotiating table with Palestinian leaders.

Our freedom and dignity is the most important.

You mean it is more important than the life of innocent Israeli civilians.

Your claim that the wall on international border is misleading...

I never claimed that. BTW it is mostly a fence, it is a wall only where there can be direct shooting at Israeli civilians from the Palestinian side.

this wall converts the Palestinian towns into large jails and stole 85% of water resources and 70% of the best agricultural lands.

As opposed as I am to the location of the wall, it is you who is misleading. None of those claims are correct.

Please build the china great wall on borders and leave us alone.

I'm sure you'll leave us alone then.

Here is map and pictures of this wall:

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en


Is this map and pictures of wall or NAZI concentration camps?

Your use of the word Nazi is so peaceful. I thought a moment ago you called for building of the wall on the borders - do you think it will look any different on the borders? I bet you wouldn't be using those pictures to manipulate people's feelings if that wall was around a Jewish city like you want.
You see, unlike yourself, I am against all walls, wherever they may be. I also understand that fence has saved many Israeli lives, as much as I dislike it. I hope it will be torn down as soon as possible, but as long as Palestinians legitimate the practice of violence against Israeli civilians and do nothing to stop it, our government's duty is to protect them as best it can, as is the duty of every democratic government in this world.

Do you mean that suicide bombers are the root of the problems?

No but unlike other aspects of the problem they are killing innocent people.

How many suicide bombers and attacks inside Israel from 1967 till 1994?

There are ''Zero attacks'' by suicide bombers or against Israeli civilians...

I already proved that is a lie.

What Israel offer within this period:

- Massacre of (the day of Land) against the non Jews Israeli in 1976.

There was no such massacre.

Massacre of Hebron University, 1984 by Jews settlers.

What massacre? I ran a google search and couldn't find any massacre in the Hebron University.

Massacre of Nahlin , 1988.

Same as above, what massacre?

Massacre of Eion Kara or Rishon Litzion against Palestinian workers on 15/05/1990.

Couldn't find anything on it. Do these "massacres" even exist?

4000 Palestinian victims in the fisrt Palestinian peaceful uprising 1987-1993.

Support that comment.

Destruction of thousands of houses.

Before 1994? Let's see you prove that.

Building 200 settlements and stealing 60% of lands and 85% of water resources.

From all you said until now Israel has stolen well over 100% of Arabs' land and water - quite an achievement.

This means suicide bombers are not the source of the problem!

No one said they were the source of the problem, but they are murdering innocent civilians, and you are supporting them, right here, right now. You can pray for peace as much as you want, if you don't stop the violence it will never come. I understand you're too busy coming up with excuses why you are killing innocent civilians to stop the violence though.