Index of refraction vs frequency

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the index of refraction of a material and the frequency of electromagnetic (E/M) waves. Participants explore theoretical models, popularization strategies for educational purposes, and analogies related to the behavior of photons and electrons in materials.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a classical model using oscillators to derive the dispersion formula for the index of refraction, linking it to the behavior of electrons in an electric field.
  • Another participant questions the attribution of the model to Feynman and suggests that the proposed popularization may complicate the original concepts.
  • A different participant argues that students might better understand the concepts through analogies, such as comparing photons to bouncing balls, rather than focusing on probabilities of interactions.
  • Another viewpoint introduces the idea of coupled oscillators and discusses the quantum mechanical interpretation of photon-vibration interconversion, emphasizing the independence of probability from frequency.
  • Concerns are raised about the statistical nature of the processes described, contrasting them with the behavior of electrons in resistors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the best way to conceptualize and communicate the relationship between index of refraction and frequency. There is no consensus on the most effective educational approach or the interpretation of the underlying physics.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in the descriptions, such as the complexity of the original equations and the challenge of accurately conveying quantum mechanical processes in a simplified manner.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to educators looking for ways to explain the concepts of index of refraction and electromagnetic wave interactions, as well as those exploring the theoretical underpinnings of these phenomena in physics.

e.chaniotakis
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Hello!
I have a question concerning the relation of the index of refraction of a material with E/M wave frequency.
If we take the classical Feynman approach, we can envision the material as a series of atoms, with electrons bound with springs to the nuclei.
Let the natural frequencies of the oscillators be called ω0 and the electric field of the wave be E=Eo*e-iωt.
The E/M wave forces the electron to oscillate with frequency ω.
If we solve the differential equation, we will find:
y(t) = (q/m)*[Eo*e-iωt]/[(ωο22) ]
(we consider the damping infinitessimal).

The polarization of the material can be given from :

P=χeE
P=qy(t)
→ P = E*xe = Ε*[Nq2/m]*[1/{ωο22}]

/* N=nr of electrons per unit volume with natural frequency ω0 */

Τhe permitivity ε is given by:
ε=ε0*(1+χe) =
ε=ε0*(1+[Nq2/m]*[1/{ωο22}])

The index of refraction is given by:

n=sqrt(ε*μ)/sqrt(ε0*μ0) = ...
n= 1+{Nq2/2mε0}*{1/(ω022}

For ω<<ω0,

n=1+(Nq2/2mε0)*{ [1/ω02]+[1/ω04]*ω2] }
n=1+A+Bω2

This is the actual derivation of the dispersion formula.
Now, if I wanted to "popularize" the effect to a high school student, how should I phrase it?

My idea was something like the following:
When a photon enters the material, it forces the electrons to oscillate. If ω<ω0, as ω increases , the amplitude increases until it reaches resonance.
As the amplitude increases, the probability of a photon to interact with an electron increases since there are more "meeting points" for a photon and an electron .
Thus, effectively there will be more Rayleigh scattering processes per unit length, and the photon will "take more time" to pass through the material.
Thus its speed effectively decreases or the index of refraction increases.
Is this "popularization" correct?

Thank you
 
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First I don't think that this description is due to Feynman although he may have used it.
Second your intent of popularisation is more complicated than the original.
The original equations consider the interaction of a classical electromagnetic field with some classical oscillators while you start to interpret it in terms of probabilities of photons to interact with electrons. I think there are nice demonstrations of forced oscillations like e.g.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
About the Feynman part, you are most right, I refer to its being a classical textbook.
About the probability part, to my experience, students understand things conceptually better in terms of bouncing balls (the way I treat photons in my description :) ).
I actually want to make an analogy between this effect and the effect of a resistor's resistance increasing with temperature and how can one visualise it microscopically.
Thank you for the video!
 
I prefer to think of this in terms of two coupled oscillators, e.g. pendulums. There are two normal modes, one where mainly the oscillator with lower frequency is moving and one where mainly the one with higher frequency is moving.
If you want to interpret this quantum mechanically then you can consider the process where a photon converts into a vibrational excitation and this back into a photon and so on and so on.
The point is that the probability for interconversion is quite independent of frequency but the time a vibration can live is given by the time energy uncertainty. If the energy of the vibration does not coincide with the energy of the photon, then the lifetime of the vibrational excitation is proportional to the inverse of this energy difference. Hence far from resonance, a photon will be most of the time be a photon and a vibration will stay most of the time a vibration. However, this is not a statistical process like the scattering of electrons in a resistor.
 

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