Integral resulting from the product of two functions/derivative functi

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the possibility of defining two functions, ##f(x)## and ##g(x)##, such that the integral ##∫f(x)g'(x)dx## does not yield an indefinite solution, while the integral ##∫f'(x)g(x)dx## does yield an indefinite solution. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and exploration of integral properties.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Mathematical reasoning, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests using the partial integral rule, indicating that if the left side integral is definite, the right side must also be definite, implying that the desired condition may not be achievable.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on what is meant by "not valid," questioning if the absolute value function as ##g(x)## is a suitable example due to the non-existence of its derivative at zero.
  • A later reply clarifies that "not valid" refers to the integral not yielding results in terms of standard mathematical functions.
  • Another participant proposes that if the integral is Riemann, then defining ##g(x)=|x|## could work under certain conditions, specifically if zero is within the integration range.
  • There is a suggestion that the derivatives of the functions are well-defined in the integration range, but the integrals themselves may have issues, particularly regarding closed forms.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of the original question, with some suggesting potential functions while others challenge the assumptions or definitions involved. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific functions that meet the criteria.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the definitions of validity in the context of integrals, as well as the implications of using Riemann versus Lebesgue integration. The discussion does not resolve these aspects.

Saracen Rue
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TL;DR
Define f(x) and g(x) so that the integral of f(x)*g'(x) is NOT valid but the integral of f'(x)*g(x) is.
Hey, sorry for the cluncky title. It was rathet difficult to summarise what I'm talking about here.

I want to know if it's possible to define ##f(x)## and ##g(x)## in such a way that ##∫f(x)g'(x)dx## has no indefinite solution while ##∫f'(x)g(x)dx## does have an indefinite solution.

Any help is greatly appreciated :)

Thank you all for your time.
 
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Hi
Partial integral rule we write
\int^b_a fg'dx=[fg]^b_a - \int^b_a f'g dx
When left side integral and
[fg]^b_a =f(b)g(b)-f(a)g(a)
are definite, the right side integral is also definite.
Thus your require above fg be indefinite but I am afraid not.
 
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Saracen Rue said:
Summary: Define f(x) and g(x) so that the integral of f(x)*g'(x) is NOT valid but the integral of f'(x)*g(x) is.

Hey, sorry for the cluncky title. It was rathet difficult to summarise what I'm talking about here.

I want to know if it's possible to define ##f(x)## and ##g(x)## in such a way that ##∫f(x)g'(x)dx## has no indefinite solution while ##∫f'(x)g(x)dx## does have an indefinite solution.

Any help is greatly appreciated :)

Thank you all for your time.
What do you mean by "not valid"? Is the absolute value as ##g(x)## not valid, since ##g'(0)## doesn't exist?
 
fresh_42 said:
What do you mean by "not valid"? Is the absolute value as ##g(x)## not valid, since ##g'(0)## doesn't exist?
I meant "not valid" as to mean "have no results in terms of standard mathematical functions"
 
Riemann or Lebesgue? If it is Riemann, then ##g(x)=|x|## and a suitable ##f(x)## should do if ##0## is in the integration range.
 
fresh_42 said:
Riemann or Lebesgue? If it is Riemann, then ##g(x)=|x|## and a suitable ##f(x)## should do if ##0## is in the integration range.
Though not explicitly stated, I believe the statement implies that the derivatives are well defined in the range of integration, just that the integrals have some sort of problem. (by "not valid" I think the OP means that the integral doesn't have a closed form)
 

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