Interconnectedness of all things ?

[hadeka]

Interconnectedness of all things ?!

Hi all ..

I have a question please.

Poeple that believe and practice mystical, and paranormal experiences,, claim that there is a scientific evidence that support their experiences.
This evidence, is that according to quantum physics, everything in the universe is interconnected, and according to that sub-atomic particles can exist in many places at once .. and that everything in the universe is interconnected by the universal energy ...

So, is that all real ??! yes or no ??! and why ?!

thank you ... and waiting for your reply ...


Hadeka.

 

[Danger]

Short answer: no. There is no place for mysticism in science, other than as something to be explained away. Quantum mechanics is such a little-understood subject that charlatans will naturally gravitate toward it as an incomprehensible way to bamboozle the masses. Whether or not they actually know anything about it, they can manipulate aspects of it to suit their purposes. I'll leave it to the scientists here to elaborate upon it.

 

[vanesch]

Hi all ..

I have a question please.

Poeple that believe and practice mystical, and paranormal experiences,, claim that there is a scientific evidence that support their experiences.
This evidence, is that according to quantum physics, everything in the universe is interconnected, and according to that sub-atomic particles can exist in many places at once .. and that everything in the universe is interconnected by the universal energy ...

So, is that all real ??! yes or no ??! and why ?!

thank you ... and waiting for your reply ...


Hadeka.

Pythagoras thought that the "secret of the universe" was lying in the rational numbers (and was hence deeply shocked by the discovery of sqrt(2) ) ; Plato thought that nature was to be understood by the perfection that resides in the Idea of Circle and Line. Medieval scholastics thought that the universe's secrets were based upon number properties such as 3 and 7 and so on.

I guess that the modern version is the quantum-mechanical wavefunction.

Although quantum theory does introduce some very strange ideas, it is always a mistake to err on the mystical side. The mystical side finds its attractiveness in the obscure and the un-understood, or better, the only very partly understood. Once something is well-understood and one has knowledge of why certain things behave the way they do, they loose all mysticism. "The obscure by the more obscure" (Nostradamus) is not the scientific way of looking upon things, but has always had a strange attraction on the human mind.

 

[Jallu]

There is no place for mysticism in science, other than as something to be explained away.

Is it customary here to rule away social sciences?

 

[Mike2]

Hi all ..

I have a question please.

Poeple that believe and practice mystical, and paranormal experiences,, claim that there is a scientific evidence that support their experiences.
This evidence, is that according to quantum physics, everything in the universe is interconnected, and according to that sub-atomic particles can exist in many places at once .. and that everything in the universe is interconnected by the universal energy ...

So, is that all real ??! yes or no ??! and why ?!

thank you ... and waiting for your reply ...


Hadeka.

What is truly mystical is how human intelligence, observation, and understanding may have an actual effect, in and of itself, on the environment. If ones own understanding and beliefs can have a real effect in reality, we tend to think of that as magic. And quantum mechanics offers these mystics a possible means of scientific explanation for these events. But the explanations have not been convincing so far.

But perhaps there is an explanation. It just may be that human intelligence and belief may constitute a system that possesses entropy. It is this intelligence and belief which results in engineering highly complex systems like computer chips that represent low entropy states. And we would measure the state of a psychotic maniac to be in a higher state of entropy than, say, a creative genius.

Then if we use some results of black hole entropy studies, that entropy can not change instantaneously, it might be concievable that miracles could happen for those who have enough faith. Instant destruction can not happen for them, and thus miracle occur to prevent it, because their beliefs have such a high state of entropy that it cannot be instantly destroyed.

Comments?

 

[Cane_Toad]

Short answer: no. There is no place for mysticism in science, other than as something to be explained away. Quantum mechanics is such a little-understood subject that charlatans will naturally gravitate toward it as an incomprehensible way to bamboozle the masses. Whether or not they actually know anything about it, they can manipulate aspects of it to suit their purposes. I'll leave it to the scientists here to elaborate upon it.

Absolutely.


That said...

This evidence, is that according to quantum physics, everything in the universe is interconnected, and according to that sub-atomic particles can exist in many places at once .. and that everything in the universe is interconnected by the universal energy ...

There is something going on quantum physics that you might care to look at. The first two statements are actually true, but the bit about "universal energy" is lobbing metaphysical beliefs into the mix where they don't belong.

What's happening is that QM is discovering the the sub-atomic world behaves very much as if everything happens according probability waves and formulas that defy all intuition. The functions *are* interconnecting in amazing ways between light, matter, fields, etc. It's actually more fascinating than what the paranormal folks are saying, because it's REAL, and it's still about as mind bending as you could as for. Read about the experiments and understand the implications for yourself and don't rely on what dribbles down to you from other sources. You don't have to have much math to get the full WOW of it, just persistence. The problem is that the paranormal folks don't bother to understand what is really going on, and/or lump their own belief systems into it without foundation.

 

[Cane_Toad]

What is truly mystical is how human intelligence, observation, and understanding may have an actual effect, in and of itself, on the environment. ..

Why does it have to be mystical? I'd settle for "wonderous", and "inspiring", but not mystical. The things you mention have an effect because we *do* them, not because intelligence oozes into the woodwork of reality. Well, at least I haven't been able to prove it so far.

...
Instant destruction can not happen for them, and thus miracle occur to prevent it, because their beliefs have such a high state of entropy that it cannot be instantly destroyed.

Comments?

Even if such a thing were true, I think you're grossly under-estimating the difference in entropy represented by a person compared to the world and the universe around him. Destruction of macro systems is never instant anyway, so it doesn't matter if your entropy is a bit better, you won't see the difference. Also, I think you're using entropy backwards; high entropy means maximum dispersal.

Truthfully, I want miracles to be true; now if someone would just point me at one that I can see and touch...

If you want to live forever, read up on the many worlds idea of quantum suicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide"

The problem with this, is you have to shoot yourself.

 

[Mike2]

Even if such a thing were true, I think you're grossly under-estimating the difference in entropy represented by a person compared to the world and the universe around him. Destruction of macro systems is never instant anyway, so it doesn't matter if your entropy is a bit better, you won't see the difference.

Truthfully, I want miracles to be true; now if someone would just point me at one that I can see and touch...

The problem is in how to measure the entropy of correct thinking and right belief systems. But we do talk about measuring the entropy of computer code and written information, which is just pure abstractions with no physicality in and of themselves. Do the thoughts and ideas about creating the code have more or less entropy than the code itself? Which has more entropy? I would think that if entropy must increase, and the code is the result of the ingenuity of the writer, than the very idea of the code must have less entropy than the code itself.

 

[Cane_Toad]

The problem is in how to measure the entropy of correct thinking and right belief systems.

I think entropy measured in terms of information density, so my guess is that equally complex "right" and "wrong" concepts would be equivalent, entropy-wise. My guess is also that the entropy of any concept would be insignificant in comparison to the brain tissue that held it.

I don't think entropy is going to be any kind of moral or ethical metric. Well, it might indirectly, in that Evil likes to destroy, and Good likes to create, in trite terms, but those are actions directly translatable into entropic changes.

But we do talk about measuring the entropy of computer code and written information, which is just pure abstractions with no physicality in and of themselves. Do the thoughts and ideas about creating the code have more or less entropy than the code itself? Which has more entropy? I would think that if entropy must increase, and the code is the result of the ingenuity of the writer, than the very idea of the code must have less entropy than the code itself.

Code is certainly more than abstraction. It takes up physical resources, as well as information complexity. My guess is the code would have much less entropy (i.e. better), since an idea is much lighter weight than all the work that goes into creating the code for it, and it's interface with the surrounding code, and the hardware, etc. An ingenius idea has less entropy that a stupid idea, I'd think, because it packs more information into a tighter package. However, translating an ingenius idea into computer code takes ingenius code, or lots of mediocre code, but the balance is about the same.

BTW, entropy doesn't have to increase or decrease in any particular instance, all we know is that the entropy of the containing system will increase. Lower entropy things are created constantly, take an egg to an adult for example.

My guess is that if the universe is keeping score of good and evil, it will be using a more sublime measure than entropy, or if it does use entropy, then it will take the human race a few million years of colonizing the Milky Way for us to even get noticed.

 

[PIT2]

Although quantum theory does introduce some very strange ideas, it is always a mistake to err on the mystical side. The mystical side finds its attractiveness in the obscure and the un-understood, or better, the only very partly understood. Once something is well-understood and one has knowledge of why certain things behave the way they do, they loose all mysticism.

How do u know this? It could also be that once one understands how things work, mysticism turns out to be true.

Of course, if u are talking about it semantically, then yes mysticism disappears because there is no longer a mystery.

 

[loseyourname]

Well, I take the mysticism thesis to be that certain things cannot be rationally understood, but are ineffable and can only be known through experience. This thesis precludes the possibility of explanation and hence understanding in the sense of being able to explain.

Back to the original question, though, is it actually the case that quantum theory claims all subatomic particles are interconnected? I've heard of quantum entanglement, but not of every single particle in existence being entangled. And how many mystics really say that quantum theory can explain their experiences? I know a lot of Northern Californian new-agers do so, but has any mystical tradition with any long history actually made this claim?

 

[Cane_Toad]

Back to the original question, though, is it actually the case that quantum theory claims all subatomic particles are interconnected? I've heard of quantum entanglement, but not of every single particle in existence being entangled. And how many mystics really say that quantum theory can explain their experiences? I know a lot of Northern Californian new-agers do so, but has any mystical tradition with any long history actually made this claim?

Well, all particles, atoms, molecules, cells, people, planets, etc. all have wave functions, of increasing decoherence, of course. Thus, one can say that everything is part if a big path integral, although it's true that calculable effects can only be seen between subatomic particles.

Still, the idea is implicit in QM that at each instant to truly know all the infinitesimal influences on an event, one would have to integrate the universe, no? In practice, of course, infinitesimals approach zero, and are excluded from meaningful calculations.

 

[Cane_Toad]

How do u know this? It could also be that once one understands how things work, mysticism turns out to be true.

The distinction is that until the understanding happens, unsupportable ideas should be considered hypotheses, but mysticism puts them into the category of "faith", which is outside of science.

 

[ZapperZ]

The trouble with issues like this is that people only learn ONE part of physics and ignores the rest. And when they do that, they are also ignoring something that could make their guesses utterly wrong.

Let's get ONE FACT VERY clear. There is a distinction between the quantum world that is described by QM, and the classical world that we are very familiar with. You do NOT normally observe quantum superposition, entanglement, phase coherence, etc... etc.. in our classical world. Even when such weird phenomena manifest themselves at the macroscopic scale, most people don't recognize it (example: superconductivity). Thus, our world is VERY different than the quantum world. If not, we would not be able to use classical laws to build our houses and make our vehicles run.

So already there is a problem in extrapolating QM phenomena into the classical regime. We just don't see it, nor can we measure its effects. But there is another often-neglected aspect of physics that could throw a severe wrench into such extrapolation - the study of PHASE TRANSITION.

Any physicist worth his/her salt would know what this is, and why it would be relevant here. In a phase transition (such as going from ice to water), the thermodynamical behavior that is valid in ice cannot be extrapolated into the water phase. It just won't work! There is a discontinuity of several thermodynamical variables right at the phase transition. It means that the trend that we see in each phase cannot simply be extended through to the other phase. They behave differently right after that phase transition.

Now, no one knows if the distinction between quantum and classical world is similar to a phase transition, or simply a continuous crossover. Studies that are continuing in this area are starting to indicate that https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1315661&postcount=42" as a quantum system is coupled to a large degree of freedom. But regardless of that, our knowledge of what goes on with phase transition should make everyone weary of bastardizing QM in such manner. You simply cannot extrapolate the phenomena and description of one regime into another without ample justification. So far, there's none. In fact, there's mounting evidence that you just can't do that.

This is what happens when only one aspect of physics is taken while the rest is ignored. Physics cannot be used, much less understood, in bit and pieces. It is ironic that the argument of "interconnectedness" on things here actually ignores the interconnectedness of various areas of physics.

Zz.

 

[raolduke]

If one version of the scientist dies.. Where would the consciousness be placed? In the living one I assume?

 

[Cane_Toad]

If one version of the scientist dies.. Where would the consciousness be placed? In the living one I assume?

Clearly, the consciousness is duplicated with the body in the duplicated universe. I don't think anybody has proposed a conservation of consciousness, though that would be funny.

 

[PIT2]

I think Bohm claimed that at some level the entire universe is interconnected (he wrote a book called "wholeness and implicate order"). And the idea of an interconnected whole is accepted as the state of the universe during the moment of the big bang.

Of course in physics they want to leave consciousness out of the equation ("it should be dealt with by neuroscience"), but when one considers the idea that it goes back in time all the way to the bigbang, the experiences of mystics make sense.

 

[nabuco]

People that believe and practice mystical, and paranormal experiences, claim that there is a scientific evidence that support their experiences.
This evidence, is that according to quantum physics, everything in the universe is interconnected, and according to that sub-atomic particles can exist in many places at once .. and that everything in the universe is interconnected by the universal energy

Ironically it was the physicists, not the mystics, who started this nonsense. I can't imagine someone having a mystical experience and thinking "geez, this is just like quantum mechanics!".

Ordinarily people interpreted mystical experiences in the context of their religious beliefs, but nowadays nothing seems to matter much unless it has the rubberstamp of "science". I still think mystical experiences mean exactly what they mean, and science has nothing to do with it one way or another.

 

[Crosson]

Everything you have ever experienced is a sensation generated by your own brain. This is the way in which everything that you will ever experience is interconnected.

Ironically it was the physicists, not the mystics, who started this nonsense. I can't imagine someone having a mystical experience and thinking "geez, this is just like quantum mechanics!".

Was it the physicists who started it? Or was it the oppurtunists who transmitted there poor understanding of quantum physics to the masses for personal gain?

Most of the connections between QM and mysticism were started by the sensationalist newspapers of the first half of the 20th century. The current popularity of these discussions is due mostly to Brian Greene, who I consider to have no more integrity then Paris Hilton, Britney Spears, et al. Let's finally let these silly vague speculations go away. Learn physics if you want, but don't propogate garbage.

 

[nabuco]

Everything you have ever experienced is a sensation generated by your own brain. This is the way in which everything that you will ever experience is interconnected.

If that is true, then the mystics are right.

Was it the physicists who started it? Or was it the oppurtunists who transmitted there poor understanding of quantum physics to the masses for personal gain?

Come on, stop for a minute and think: how can a person without training look at, say, Schrödinger's equation and see a cat that is half-dead and half-alive? To a non-physicist quantum mechanics looks just like a bunch of cryptic Greek letters and undecipherable jargon.

The current popularity of these discussions is due mostly to Brian Greene, who I consider to have no more integrity then Paris Hilton, Britney Spears, et al. Let's finally let these silly vague speculations go away. Learn physics if you want, but don't propogate garbage.

Even here, I think the blame is still with the physicists. They should come out and declare openly that they don't understand what they are doing, that quantum mechanics does not describe the world as it really is, and that physics is nothing more than a tool to help engineers get the job done at best, and an expensive pastime at worst. Until they do so, people will feel justified believing physicists are on to something.

 

[PIT2]

Or was it the oppurtunists who transmitted there poor understanding of quantum physics to the masses for personal gain?

I think there are 2 bad situations: the people who claim QM proves that paranormal events exist and that mysticism is right, and the physicalists who try to distort QM by claiming there is no connection between it and mysticism.

Most of the connections between QM and mysticism were started by the sensationalist newspapers of the first half of the 20th century.

Schrodinger himself also saw connections between millennia old mysticism and QM.

 

[hadeka]

I guess, even if QM explains paranormal or parapsychological phenomena, so they are no longer paranormal of parapsychological ...
they are just normal ..

The world is matter ,, and there is nothing beyond matter ..

it's only the capacity of our knowledge to explain phenomenas.
So there is nothing beyond nature ... There is just many things beyound our current understanding .. and it is a matter of time to understand it.

 

[Cane_Toad]

Originally Posted by Crosson View Post
Everything you have ever experienced is a sensation generated by your own brain. This is the way in which everything that you will ever experience is interconnected.

If that is true, then the mystics are right.

I see Crosson's comment as neurologist's point of view, not a mystic's. I could be mistaken, but he seems to be limiting interconnectedness to what your senses and your brain make of the world.

Was it the physicists who started it? Or was it the oppurtunists who transmitted there poor understanding of quantum physics to the masses for personal gain?

Come on, stop for a minute and think: how can a person without training look at, say, Schrödinger's equation and see a cat that is half-dead and half-alive? To a non-physicist quantum mechanics looks just like a bunch of cryptic Greek letters and undecipherable jargon.

Both are true. There are plenty of opportunist physicists. Brian Greene is a physicist, Gary Zukav is educated enough to know better, and even guys like Penrose manage to raise the level of hype, IMHO, through the very commercialism he uses to title his books with.

Even here, I think the blame is still with the physicists. They should come out and declare openly that they don't understand what they are doing, that quantum mechanics does not describe the world as it really is, and that

This statement remains to be seen. QM clearly does describe the real world, but not at the macro scale, and that's just for now. Yes, QM is a tool, but the more I understand about it, the deeper the significance goes for me.

physics is nothing more than a tool to help engineers get the job done at best, and an expensive pastime at worst. Until they do so, people will feel justified believing physicists are on to something.

They *are* onto something. QM is truly fascinating in its own right, more so than the fictionalized stuff, but that's just me. I find the ramifications of QM about the nature of reality better food for the soul than anything I've heard in a long, long time.

You can try to lay the blame on the physicists if you like, but that's not practical. Remember, the physicists aren't media darlings. With the exception of Einstein, all the down to Earth ones were too boring for the media to care to talk about. Well, Openheimer, but that's a different story.

I'll wager that there isn't one Hollywood exec who would ever allow any reality into any movie, cause all they care about are the viewers they've already conditioned to lick up their pap. My WAG is that only 1% of the movie goers cringe at the crap they teach the populace.

If you were to write a book that said, "Quantum Physics, the hard cold facts", who's gunna buy it? A recent poll has 40% of Americans refusing to believe in evolution, and there is a huge amount of educational effort that has been trying to fix that for most of the 20th century. NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR IT! (Well, not nobody, but the already converted aren't the problem.)

The only hope in this arena is if some sort of "foundation" were set up to do television adds like the milk and beef industry does. The problem is, that such adds would have no economic return, so who's going to finance it? All the working physicists with their million dollar salaries?

Sigh. Sigh, and sigh again. A subject as complex as QM has no chance until the playing field changes from our religious based society which refuses to accept anything that doesn't make them feel all warm inside.

God, I hate people.

 

[ZapperZ]

Come on, stop for a minute and think: how can a person without training look at, say, Schrödinger's equation and see a cat that is half-dead and half-alive? To a non-physicist quantum mechanics looks just like a bunch of cryptic Greek letters and undecipherable jargon.

You are forgetting pop-science books. Many people without any physics training read them and think they have mastered it.

And if you think this is just confined to amateurs, then I suggest you trace back each step of the way that led to the Alan Sokal hoax in Social Text. Those postmodernists did not think their lack of physics knowledge was any hindrance to them using and bastardizing not just QM, but also Relativity in formulating their ideas.

Even here, I think the blame is still with the physicists. They should come out and declare openly that they don't understand what they are doing, that quantum mechanics does not describe the world as it really is, and that physics is nothing more than a tool to help engineers get the job done at best, and an expensive pastime at worst. Until they do so, people will feel justified believing physicists are on to something.

Eh? And you think classical mechanics actually can describe the world "as it really is"? Or can you show me something that you would qualify as describing the world as it really is?

There's more validity to QM than there is to your statement above.

Zz.

 

[baywax]

The trouble with issues like this is that people only learn ONE part of physics and ignores the rest. And when they do that, they are also ignoring something that could make their guesses utterly wrong.

Let's get ONE FACT VERY clear. There is a distinction between the quantum world that is described by QM, and the classical world that we are very familiar with. You do NOT normally observe quantum superposition, entanglement, phase coherence, etc... etc.. in our classical world. Even when such weird phenomena manifest themselves at the macroscopic scale, most people don't recognize it (example: superconductivity). Thus, our world is VERY different than the quantum world. If not, we would not be able to use classical laws to build our houses and make our vehicles run.

So already there is a problem in extrapolating QM phenomena into the classical regime. We just don't see it, nor can we measure its effects. But there is another often-neglected aspect of physics that could throw a severe wrench into such extrapolation - the study of PHASE TRANSITION.

Any physicist worth his/her salt would know what this is, and why it would be relevant here. In a phase transition (such as going from ice to water), the thermodynamical behavior that is valid in ice cannot be extrapolated into the water phase. It just won't work! There is a discontinuity of several thermodynamical variables right at the phase transition. It means that the trend that we see in each phase cannot simply be extended through to the other phase. They behave differently right after that phase transition.

Now, no one knows if the distinction between quantum and classical world is similar to a phase transition, or simply a continuous crossover. Studies that are continuing in this area are starting to indicate that https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1315661&postcount=42" as a quantum system is coupled to a large degree of freedom. But regardless of that, our knowledge of what goes on with phase transition should make everyone weary of bastardizing QM in such manner. You simply cannot extrapolate the phenomena and description of one regime into another without ample justification. So far, there's none. In fact, there's mounting evidence that you just can't do that.

This is what happens when only one aspect of physics is taken while the rest is ignored. Physics cannot be used, much less understood, in bit and pieces. It is ironic that the argument of "interconnectedness" on things here actually ignores the interconnectedness of various areas of physics.

Zz.

Nicely put and mostly understood! Thank you Zapper dude!

 

[ZapperZ]

I guess, even if QM explains paranormal or parapsychological phenomena, so they are no longer paranormal of parapsychological ...
they are just normal ..

You are forgetting one very important thing. To be able to explain something, you have to FIRST of all show that that "something" truly exists. Those phenomena that you have described have spent the better part of the last 100 to 200 years trying to get out of first gear and show conclusively that they exist! How much longer are you going to give them?

At the same time, look at all the verified phenomena in science. Not only have we show their existence, but our knowledge of them continues to accumulate. We have more accurate and more extensive qualitative and quantitative descriptions of them.

These two distinctions are something most people do not seem to be aware of and what continues to separate between pseudosciences and valid sciences. You can't expect to extrapolate something from science to explain something that isn't even yet verified to exist, much less having any quantitative validity. It is why your question is rather moot at this point.

Zz.

 

[Cane_Toad]

I think there are 2 bad situations: the people who claim QM proves that paranormal events exist and that mysticism is right, and the physicalists who try to distort QM by claiming there is no connection between it and mysticism.

Huh? I find approximately 0.0% mysticism in the QM I've seen so far. That's not to say that QM doesn't affect me in the same way mystical things did for me when I was a child.

Schrodinger himself also saw connections between millennia old mysticism and QM.

I skimmed the entry, and I didn't see what you're talking about. Note that his cat experiment was anti-mysticism, even though it got exported incorrectly. The media would rather have cool story about a cat that is neither dead or alive.

Regardless, many physicists retain their religious beliefs, though I find it hard to see how, but they (by and large) keep it separate from their science.

 

[Cane_Toad]

These two distinctions are something most people do not seem to be aware of and what continues to separate between pseudosciences and valid sciences. You can't expect to extrapolate something from science to explain something that isn't even yet verified to exist, much less having any quantitative validity. It is why your question is rather moot at this point.

Zz.

You seem to be forgetting that the paranormal phenomena *are* verified, by stubborn assertion. As long as you have people walking around with digital thermometers demonstrating the existence of ghosts, your distinctions aren't going to carry any weight with the problem demographic.

Until you can change what people *want* to understand, I don't know how progress can be made.

 

[Cane_Toad]

The world is matter ,, and there is nothing beyond matter ..

I disagree. This is the fascinating thing about QM. It is showing that matter, as we know it, isn't the final story. All that we can find underneath matter is pure probability. So far, QM is telling us that the workings of the sub-atomic realm have no intersection with how we normally perceive the world. We don't know where this is going to lead, but isn't that enough keep you pondering for a good long spell?

 

[PIT2]

Huh? I find approximately 0.0% mysticism in the QM I've seen so far. That's not to say that QM doesn't affect me in the same way mystical things did for me when I was a child.

The reason u do not see this in physics, is because it is not fruitful to get consciousness involved in it. It only complicates matters from a physicalist point of view (try to write an equation with consciousness in it), and there is no way to test or falsify it anyway.

If u think mysticism deals with the fantasies of children, then perhaps u have missed the possible connections between QM and mysticism, because u haven't informed urself about the latter?

I skimmed the entry, and I didn't see what you're talking about. Note that his cat experiment was anti-mysticism, even though it got exported incorrectly. The media would rather have cool story about a cat that is neither dead or alive.

If u read the text on this page ("what is life") and especially the conclusion, u will find some of his ideas about it: http://home.att.net/~p.caimi/schrodinger.html

 

[hadeka]

ZapperZ, and Cane_Toad:

The problem, is that people want to believe in a certain thing, so they create their own evidences to support their claims, and beliefs.

Thousands of years ago, people thought that earthquakes are caused because of god's anger.
Now, it will be extremely stupid to think of such explanation.

Now, people do the same.
They get the easiest explanation. because of nothing but just a lack of knowledge.

The claims of paranormal phenomenas are controversial since thousands of years ago ... These controversies, are about its existence.
Skeptics are always against believers.
We see that skeptics offer logical and scientific explanations to prove that all these claims are hoax .. unlike believers, who only offer professional ignorance toward any logical or scientific basics.

As "Cane_Toad" said .. we should first change the way people think by offering scientific and logical bases ... instead of leaving them swimming in the ocean of pseudoscience and ignorance.

 

[hadeka]

I disagree. This is the fascinating thing about QM. It is showing that matter, as we know it, isn't the final story. All that we can find underneath matter is pure probability. So far, QM is telling us that the workings of the sub-atomic realm have no intersection with how we normally perceive the world. We don't know where this is going to lead, but isn't that enough keep you pondering for a good long spell?

What you said here, doesn't contradict what i said.

Probability is not an existence underneath matter ... It is the way matter behave ..

 

[Cane_Toad]

Probability is not an existence underneath matter ... It is the way matter behave ..

Yes, I know QM ostensibly only describes behavior. My point is that QM is showing no evidence of anything more "real" at the sub-atomic level than the probabilities and formulas that have been found to work more or less perfectly. None of what we know classically seems to map into QM.

What I'm seeing through the QM lens is an arena where all that there is are self consistent formulae. The leap I'm making, and it's premature I know, is that if all that can be found below the atom level is probability, then maybe that's what existence is at that level. I.e.

Sherlock Holmes, "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

It's just a viewpoint I'm in the process of forming, so it's incomplete.

 

[ZapperZ]

ZapperZ, and Cane_Toad:

The problem, is that people want to believe in a certain thing, so they create their own evidences to support their claims, and beliefs.

Thousands of years ago, people thought that earthquakes are caused because of god's anger.
Now, it will be extremely stupid to think of such explanation.

Now, people do the same.
They get the easiest explanation. because of nothing but just a lack of knowledge.

The claims of paranormal phenomenas are controversial since thousands of years ago ... These controversies, are about its existence.
Skeptics are always against believers.
We see that skeptics offer logical and scientific explanations to prove that all these claims are hoax .. unlike believers, who only offer professional ignorance toward any logical or scientific basics.

As "Cane_Toad" said .. we should first change the way people think by offering scientific and logical bases ... instead of leaving them swimming in the ocean of pseudoscience and ignorance.

But you just contradicted yourself. You first said that these people create their own evidence to support their claims. This means that no amount of rational explanation will change their minds, even scientific explanation.

I've seen way too many instances where people are more swayed by bells and whistles rather than hard scientific evidence. Why? Because they are just not equipped to evaluate when a hard evidence is being presented, and when something is only anecdotal.

So when you add those two, what do you think will happen?

BTW, what does this have anything to do with your original question? Or has that been put to sleep already?

Zz.

 

[Cane_Toad]

I've seen way too many instances where people are more swayed by bells and whistles rather than hard scientific evidence. Why? Because they are just not equipped to evaluate when a hard evidence is being presented, and when something is only anecdotal.

It's worse than "not equipped". Take the case with evolution. It comes down to an insistance that the hard evidence is merely anecdotal, making way for the replacement by more convenient facts.

BTW, what does this have anything to do with your original question? Or has that been put to sleep already?

Zz.

Well, part of it is certainly diatribe about how we've gotten into the place where QM has become a vehicle for mystical ideas about interconnectedness.

(Meanwhile, I'm trying to proselytize my ideas about how the actual interconnectedness in the QM framework is much more interesting. )

 

[Cane_Toad]

As "Cane_Toad" said .. we should first change the way people think by offering scientific and logical bases

Heh, that's not what I said, though I agree with it in part. I think it's a much more complex and intractible social problem, and I honestly don't have a clue what might work. We already offer "scientific and logical bases", but they don't fill the emotional needs of people, and the theologies that fill those needs are deeply entrenched.

Science offers no deity to pray to and hold your hand. Regardless of the splender that can be found in science, it doesn't comfort you when the chips are down, quite the contrary. Until people can look to themselves and each other for security, standing in the harsh light of science can be bleak; it tells you that you aren't particularly special, and the universe can snuff you out with supreme indifference. Even though our lives here are ridiculously safer than our ancestry, we still feel the spectre of nature's cycles implicit all around us.

The search for interconnectedness can be viewed as a reaction to the isolation we feel as individual self conscious creatures, as well as instinctual primate social reflexes.

 

[hadeka]

Well ...

now, i have an important question ..

I guess that something like the Chaos theory, and the Butterfly effect, can somehow explain the interconnectedness of everything .. as here, everything is affecting everything ... am i right ?!

Also, there the science of BioGeometry: http://www.biogeometry.com/english/index.php
do you think that this describes a lot about the interconnectedness ??!

Also the achievment of dr. Masaru Emoto:
"is an author known for his controversial claim that if human thoughts are directed at water before it is frozen, images of the resulting water crystals will be beautiful or ugly depending upon whether the thoughts were positive or negative. Emoto claims this can be achieved through prayer, music or by attaching written words to a container of water.

Since 1999 Emoto has published several volumes of a work titled Messages from Water, which contains photographs of water crystals next to essays and "words of intent"."

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto

and his findings, pictured in:
http://www.wellnessgoods.com/messages.asp

and he wrote a book about this.


So, i would like to know from you if this all pseudoscience, or real science... and why ?!

Thank you.

 

[ZapperZ]

Well ...

now, i have an important question ..

I guess that something like the Chaos theory, and the Butterfly effect, can somehow explain the interconnectedness of everything .. as here, everything is affecting everything ... am i right ?!

Then you have just illustrate my point very clearly here where people are using words without understanding the underlying physics.

The interconnectedness in QM has NOTHING to do with what you are describing here. In QM, it is the quantum entanglement. What you just describe above are nothing more than classical dynamics! To say that such phenomena is exhibit interconnectedness is similar to saying that when you play pool or billiards, all those balls are "interconnected" when you break them in the beginning. That makes no sense, and it certainly isn't quantum mechanics.

Zz.

 

[loseyourname]

Come on guys, don't flood the thread with crap. Biogeometry and old Cartestian rational science?!

The Butterfly Effect deals with how small perturbations in a system can result in large changes later on, and really, isn't much different from a plain old Domino Effect. A single base mutation results in the CCR-5 gene encoding a defective protein, surface receptor lipids on white blood cells don't work right, and hey, a certain segment of the English countryside is suddenly immune to plague and the entire country doesn't die off, all because of one little base-pair replication error that quantum effects could very well have randomized. A few hundred years later, England has the most powerful empire in the history of the planet and changes the course of events on six continents.

It's profound when you think about it, but there is nothing mystical going on here. Everything within a single system is connected, but we're not part of the same experiential field and we're not going to effect change in the universe through thinking about it. Let us not turn this forum into an ad for the Natural Law Party.

 

[hadeka]

Guys ...

im not saying that i believe in these stuff, I am just asking you because i know that you have more knowledge than me ... that's the point ..

the idea of BioGeometry, is related to the idea of pyramid effect, which talks about that if you put some food under a pyramid, it will take a long time to become rotten ... more than any normal condition the food will put in.

My basic question, is that mystic people says that everything in the universe is connected to each other through energy ... because everything is energy .. so everything is affecting everything ...
the world is just like a swimming pool of energy ... so everything is connected .. and affecting everything ... that's the point of biogeometry also ..
so what do you think about this ??!

im ensuring that i ask you here cause you have scientific knowledge more than me ,, so that's why i want help from you ..

Thank you

 

[ZapperZ]

Guys ... My basic question, is that mystic people says that everything in the universe is connected to each other through energy ... because everything is energy .. so everything is affecting everything ...
the world is just like a swimming pool of energy ... so everything is connected .. and affecting everything ... that's the point of biogeometry also ..
so what do you think about this ??!

They can say anything they like using anything they wish, because they are never asked to show scientific rigor the way the rest of us have to.

What is being objected to, and something you seem to keep missing, is that they have no leg to stand on if they invoke quantum mechanics as the justification for what they claim.

Is that clear enough to put this to rest already?

Zz.

 

[hadeka]

They can say anything they like using anything they wish, because they are never asked to show scientific rigor the way the rest of us have to.

What is being objected to, and something you seem to keep missing, is that they have no leg to stand on if they invoke quantum mechanics as the justification for what they claim.

Is that clear enough to put this to rest already?

Zz.

I agree ...

My final question (hopefully), is what about the pyramid effect, and the effects of shapes in general , according to BioGeometry ... ??!

And i remember i read an article few years ago , claiming that there is an explanation for Out of Body Experience in QM.
Which is that an electron in the brain forming consciousness, can exist in many places at once .. so that's why people can feel and see separated things ...
Offcourse, that stupid explanation made me laugh till death ... but what do you think ??!? i mean it is not scientific, but i have no criticism for it ..
sounds contradicted .. isn't it ?!
lol ..

waiting for your answers ...

thank you


**Edit** >> And what about that everything is energy, so everything is affecting everything ?! this important

and sorry for my many questions .. maybe you got bored from me .. but excuse me please

 

[hadeka]

Then you have just illustrate my point very clearly here where people are using words without understanding the underlying physics.

The interconnectedness in QM has NOTHING to do with what you are describing here. In QM, it is the quantum entanglement. What you just describe above are nothing more than classical dynamics! To say that such phenomena is exhibit interconnectedness is similar to saying that when you play pool or billiards, all those balls are "interconnected" when you break them in the beginning. That makes no sense, and it certainly isn't quantum mechanics.

Zz.

Ok it is not QM.

but is it related to any scientific field by any sort ??!

What i mean, is what they are saying here, really true or just bull sh** ??!

 

[Cane_Toad]

Hadeka, here is the sad truth. If a claim about any phenomena is not being discussed in reputable news and science journals, you can be 99.9% sure that it's a load of bunk, and probably for monetary gain. With the internet, you've got a great tool to find out the facts for yourself.

If such claims could actually be replicated in a lab, you can be sure the whole science community would jump on it like flies on a dung beetle's breakfast. It would be the headlines of all the newpapers across the country.

You have to train yourself to recognize the sneaky ways that people use to mix fact with fabrication to present something that looks real. Remember that the best lie is mixed with truth.


As to

My basic question, is that mystic people says that everything in the universe is connected to each other through energy ... because everything is energy .. so everything is affecting everything ...
the world is just like a swimming pool of energy ... so everything is connected .. and affecting everything ... that's the point of biogeometry also ..
so what do you think about this ??!

Now, to the question of mystical experience. The human mind/brain is capable of incredible feats of invention in altered states of consciousness. If you've ever experienced such things, you would be absolutely conviced of it's reality, and fully believe that you're in contact with God, aliens, the universe, whatever your preference. In these various levels of consciousness, it's pretty common to have reduced critical and judgement facilities, similar to dream states, but since you're still partially awake, you don't realize that the dream-like mental mechanisms are at work.

The problem will be that the outside world will refuse to cooperate and verify the experience in any scientific way.

However, if you are so inclined you can convince other people that you are sincere. A nice smile helps. Drama classes might be a good idea also. You can even help others to achieve their own experiences, sometimes by suggestion alone.

There is a very small category of things in the grey area. Lucid dreaming is an example of this. For a long time it was associated without of body experiences, and so received no scientific credibility or attention. Out of body research has still to show any valid results, but lucid dreaming research has begun to show interesting neuropsychology stuff, though there are few working on it. Not only that, you can try it for yourself.


It's not a hopeless situation, though. Everything *IS* connected in amazing and fascinating ways. Earth's biosphere is a truly amazing web of too many things to begin to list, as are nature's various ecosystems. Ecomonics, sociology, politics, etc. are more examples of complex and subtle interconnected systems. And, don't forget QM. You are going to have to put some work into it, however, if you want to really appreciate the deeper wonders of the quantum world, and the same goes for Chaos, complex systems, etc.

I'm still holding out hope that somebody will invent a timed-release Enlightment pill, and we can all share consciousness in a universal group mind. I hate that God won't show himself. Heck, I'd be satisfied if somebody would just bend a spoon for me. Meanwhile, I'm just going to spend my time appreciating the endless wonders of the world that are free of delusion.

 

[Cane_Toad]

Since you said it was "important":

**Edit** >> And what about that everything is energy, so everything is affecting everything ?! this important

As ZapperZ responds,

Originally Posted by ZapperZ View Post
Then you have just illustrate my point very clearly here where people are using words without understanding the underlying physics.

Sure enough everything *IS* energy. E=mc^2. So, I hope that's enough to explain why saying "everything is energy" is at once true, but is being used in a completely misleading way. The same with how the "observer creates events" in QM. If you make a statement like this in a context where nobody knows what "observer", "creates", or "events" means in the original context, it sure sounds like humans are creating reality by virtue of their consciousness, doesn't it?

If you're in the mood for something inspiring, try something like,

“I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky; then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of being a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?”

Chuang Tzu quotes (The most significant of China's early interpreters of Taoism, 389-286 BC)

It's beautiful, thought provoking, and you can use it as a way to feel about life and illusion without taking it literally.

 

[sneez]

On the contrary, there is no reason why to think that something is disconnected. Everything is inter-connected. There is a strong school of thought in today's science which is very usefull in providing practical answers in some limiting cases, however, it has nothing to say about philosophy since it denies its own assumptions that its based on. (Thats why so many contradictions arise as the field advances ...)

Ask most physicists and they will have well very predicted answer. (I am physicist as welll)

Ask biologists and they will have tend to have slightly different one in more cases (of cause since the reductionists technique which is based on this philosophy has pervaded western science this becomes harder).

Ask psychologists and they will probably more different answer.

The obvious fact is everything which at some point exists is interconnected to everything else.

it sure sounds like humans are creating reality by virtue of their consciousness, doesn't it?

That already was shown to be true. (Thats how the contradiction arise which I talk about)

If a claim about any phenomena is not being discussed in reputable news and science journals, you can be 99.9% sure that it's a load of bunk, and probably for monetary gain.

the reality is that its vice versa. As a person living daily in this market-advertisement approach to science I can give you numerous examples. Ppl who compete for grants if any here, are not going to even discuss how much good science is killed for political and other than objective reasons, its embarrassing

Modern science does not have answers to mystical experience. There are phenomena which these ppl exhibit which modern medicine ( neuroscience) cannot even approach since its philosophy does not permit it to ask those question. For some reference Shannon Moffett, the three pound enigma, book. Also, Will the God go away, book. But more importantly their "surfaces" of applicability do not intersect.
Mystisc do not know how to do science right and scientists have nothing close to mystical experiences to say anything of denial of it.

 

[hadeka]

Sneez .. i don't agree with you ..

The different between real science, and pseudoscience, is very clear.
The first, is proved to exist and you can make whatever experiements on it, and there is no skeptics to refute it.
The second, still exist as controversies .. till now, no one could ensure the existence of such phenomenas ..

I'm one of the most people that is interested in strange phenomenas .. and i had many .. such as out of body experiences ... so I am the one who should fight for proving its truth ..
But that's not me ..
I'm searching for every explanation that could explain these phenomenas ..

There is a base:
Anything that is perceived in the material world, has material causes.

This is a logical and scientific base.


It is just a matter of knowledge, to know or not know the real causes ..
Or it is a matter of time, to know them.

Materialism is the belief in reality...
Othen than that, is believing in temporor illusions.


**EDIT** >>> Mystics, and paranormal ,, are given that name, because the lack of our knowledge to explain them ... Once we get explanations, they will not longer be mysterious or paranormal ... It is the same idea of god of the gaps ..

So, these phenomenas, only exist because the lack of our explanation for them.

There is no god, and the world is matter.

 

[sneez]

Sneez .. i don't agree with you ..

The different between real science, and pseudoscience, is very clear.

Thats strange I did not argue for validity of pseudo science..., nor as a scientist would I think of it.

The first, is proved to exist and you can make whatever experiements on it, and there is no skeptics to refute it.

This is not true as you imply.

The second, still exist as controversies .. till now, no one could ensure the existence of such phenomenas

Im not arguing for any phenomena, I am saying that it depends on philosphical approach. There is much to be said on this which I do not have time to...

Anything that is perceived in the material world, has material causes.

This is a logical and scientific base.

absolutelly not true (and I don't even believe in absolutes ) (..but seriously this is just a philosophical stance about cause and effect. There are many other relationships between "entities/processes" than this simple one that ppl tend to.)

Materialism is the belief in reality...
Othen than that, is believing in temporor illusions.

Materialism is a philosophy which can be very well analyzed and shown to be wanting. You encourage you to study the history of these "scientific" atitudes to see for yourself.

Mystics, and paranormal ,, are given that name, because the lack of our knowledge to explain them ... Once we get explanations, they will not longer be mysterious or paranormal ... It is the same idea of god of the gaps ..

If that's how you define it fine. I am not forcing you to belief in them. I am tryingto direct over thinking process. There are as many philosophies as there are breaths right now on this planet.

There is no god, and the world is matter

Fine with me, as long as person who utters this realizes that its a philosophy.

 

[Mike2]

On the contrary, there is no reason why to think that something is disconnected. Everything is inter-connected. There is a strong school of thought in today's science which is very usefull in providing practical answers in some limiting cases, however, it has nothing to say about philosophy since it denies its own assumptions that its based on. (Thats why so many contradictions arise as the field advances ...

Even if there were a way to prove from logic alone that the consistency of all facts leads directly to quantum mechanics, would this really be a theory? Or would this just be an interpretation that only gives us all a warm and fuzzy feeling that there are reasons for everything? Such an thesis would not predict anything new or contradict already established theory.

 

[PIT2]

Thousands of years ago, people thought that earthquakes are caused because of god's anger.
Now, it will be extremely stupid to think of such explanation.

This kind of reasoning can also go the other way around: ball lightning and also meteors used to be dismissed by science, even though people saw them with their own eyes. Now they are well accepted phenomena, and it is silly to deny their existence. But the successes of science should not be extrapolated religiously into the future, and its failures should not be reason to abandon science.

The interconnectedness in QM has NOTHING to do with what you are describing here. In QM, it is the quantum entanglement. What you just describe above are nothing more than classical dynamics!

So there is interconnectedness in qm? Is the proposed interconnectedness of the universe a claim that can be investigated through physics?

The search for interconnectedness can be viewed as a reaction to the isolation we feel as individual self conscious creatures, as well as instinctual primate social reflexes.

Ur last statement may be true for some people, but it is also true that many mystics have been experiencing interconnectedness for thousands of years, so the very reason this is part of mysticism, is because of those experiences (they also used logic).