Is Chi an Actual Force in Our Bodies and Surroundings?

[Grev]

So how do you explain some things like Aikido, like when the grand master's arms couldn't be bent?

I'm sure he has a good grasp of body mechanics and human nature always tries to romanticise things but sometime even with my most critical switches on, I can't really think of a rational explanation...

 

[rcgldr]

So how do you explain some things like Aikido, like when the grand master's arms couldn't be bent?

Depends on who is trying to do the bending. As I previously posted, invite your grandmaster into the octagon with one of the top heavyweight UFC fighters. The grandmaster would be quickly dispatched. In the case of a arm bar, the grandmasters arm would get bent or broke if he didn't tap out. The difference here is that the UFC fighters train daily, conditining, how to take a punch, and all forms of martial arts. The results is a highly skilled, and quick martial artist, who is extremely strong.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't see what we gain by arguing that a highly trained martial artist can subdue a highly trained [but likely much smaller] martial artist. What you seem to be saying is that UFC fighting is the latest evolution in the martial arts.

 

[rcgldr]

I don't see what we gain by arguing that a highly trained martial artist can subdue a highly trained [but likely much smaller] martial artist. What you seem to be saying is that UFC fighting is the latest evolution in the martial arts.

Ok, pick a UFC fighter of the same weight as the aikido grand master, the outcome will still be the same. The claim that an aikido grandmaster arms can't be bent is science fiction to me, similar to claims by many grandmasters that they can't be thrown or even moved. I feel that these type of claims do harm to the world of martial arts.

What I like about the UFC is that it doesn't really on the tradition of one particular style, but has mixed various types of martial arts, and through process of elimination for what works in the ring, does represent an evolution in the martial arts.

As I previously posted, I've never seen any evidence in the octagon of an all powerful 2 inch punch, a fighter that couldn't be thown or have his arms bent (even the wrong way as in an arm bar hold).

 

[FredGarvin]

So how do you explain some things like Aikido, like when the grand master's arms couldn't be bent?

I'm sure he has a good grasp of body mechanics and human nature always tries to romanticise things but sometime even with my most critical switches on, I can't really think of a rational explanation...

We call them "Aikido party tricks." I'll be more than happy to demonstrate them any day. You are falling into the mysticism trap of martial arts.

 

[Grev]

We call them "Aikido party tricks." I'll be more than happy to demonstrate them any day. You are falling into the mysticism trap of martial arts.

Trust me, I'm not, I was just asking the question on how you guys would define it as skeptics.

After all, I don't trust anybody and I trust everybody. If you know what I mean.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Fred, perhaps you can explain how they work?

 

[FredGarvin]

I can't explain all of them, but some of the more popular ones I can.

One of the standard tricks involves two people standing, facing each other. One person puts their arms out and places their hands on the others' shoulders. The other person brings their hands up from underneath and wraps their hands around the elbow joint. The idea is that the person should be able to make the extended arms bend quite easily by pulling down.

The first try, usually, the person can not support the load and their arms bend. The next time they are told to relax, channel their ki and to picture their arms as rigid, steel rods. The next attempt, the person can't bend the arms or they can support much more weight.

The gist is that a couple of things happen here. 1) Most people, naturally, will concentrate on a very specific muscle group when trying to hold the weight up. Most people will immediately, either conciously or unconsciously, try to support the weight of the person with their biceps. When one relaxes, the load is moved to more muscle groupls, especially the triceps, as well as the shoulder joint. 2) Most people do not have any idea as to their capability is in this situation. It is easy to set the person up to automatically think that they will not be able to succeed in supporting the weight. They are set up to fail without the "magic power" knowledge.

That was the explanation I was given in the day when it was showed to me. It's a neat trick, but it's not the result of channeling or fucusing one's ki, which is what many want you to think. I will say that this demonstration did drive home a functional lesson in Aikido. One of the basic aspects is the use as much of the opponent's energy and as little of your own as you can. One does this by relaxing and not using energy to overly tense muscles during a movement. This shows that you can expend an incredible amount of energy and be worse off than if you were to relax.

EDIT: I just found this while doing a quick search: http://ofinterest.net/UA/
I think it says essentially the same things.

 

[bomba923]

[MEDIA=youtube]Hs8mblcgTsk[/MEDIA]&search=dim%20mak[/URL]
Is this really a demonstration of "chi", or is this more of a set up?
(I believe this is more of a set up)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

[MEDIA=youtube]Hs8mblcgTsk[/MEDIA]&search=dim%20mak[/URL]
(I believe this is more of a set up)[/QUOTE]

There is certainly nothing to suggest otherwise. In order to have any significance we would need medical experts and independant witnesses that can verify the claim. What's more, this is easily repeated so there is no reason for any question to remain. This is pretty much a dead give-away: If it could be done any day of the week in any physics lab at any major university, we should all know it to be a fact.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

A bit of the science behind this discussion:

Fight Science
National Geographic Channel
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/ET/popup/200608271500.html

The basic explanation given for extreme martial arts' feats lies in Wolff's Law - they cited bone transformation due to repeated impacts. In several demonstrations, over 2000 Lbs of force was measured: In once case from an elbow strike against a pile of concrete blocks. In another, it was due to the artist's forehead vs concrete blocks.

Edit:Also airs:
Monday, September 4, 9P
Tuesday, September 5, 12A

Wolff's law is a theory developed by the German Anatomist/Surgeon Julius Wolff (1835-1902) in the 19th century that states that bone in a healthy person or animal will adapt to the loads it is placed under. If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The converse is true as well: if the loading on a bone decreases, the bone will be adapted and become weaker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf's_law

 

[Javacano]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lRgfXob0ln4
I think this is one of the best videos out there which demonstrates no-contact fighting. The russian guy in the video is elite level military serviceman.
So what science do you think is under those techniques shown in this video (I mean those techniques where there is no physical interaction between two subjects)?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is no way to know from the video if any of this is anything but nonsense.

 

[russ_watters]

It just looks like really bad acting to me. For one thing, I cannot believe that specnaz soldiers could be in such poor physical shape - that guy has the build of an accountant.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

The first part was just Aikido, the non-contact part was just really bad acting.

In Aikido the uke learn to roll/fall on the slightest force so they don't hurt (unlike Aikijujutsu) which is why it looks like they're not doing anything. But with the right technique those first set of moves are easily possible, just not as easy and "weak" as they made it look there.

 

[Gelsamel Epsilon]

All non-contact stuff, like "I wiggle my finger, you're 10m away and you fall" is basically set up.

However, semi-contact stuff, or soft-contact stuff can either be setup or Aikido/Aikijujutsu which is VERY clever biomechanics and physics. Only difference between Aikido and Aikijujutsu is Aikido is a lot less violent (it was created to be passive), and Aikijujutsu involves a lot of bone breaking techniques. Aikijujutsu is the predecessor of Aikido.

A lot of the moves in Aikijujutsu can't really be explained. Simply because they're so hard to grasp, you have to experience and try the techniques otherwise you won't get them. The types of techniques in Aikijujutsu are the type where if you don't have your hand angled like this slightly then it doesn't work.

 

[pelastration]

Traditional Chinese Medicine

Chi is not only about martial sports.
More then 1 billion people are treated by traditional chinese medicine.
[PLAIN]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_Medicine[/URL]

-------- quote
TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) sees processes of the human body as interrelated and in constant interact with the environment. Therefore the theory looks for the signs of disharmony in the external and internal environment of a person in order to understand, treat and prevent illness and disease.

Traditional Chinese medicine is largely based on the philosophical concept that the human body is a small universe with a set of complete and sophisticated interconnected systems, and that those systems usually work in balance to maintain the healthy function of the human body. The balance of yin and yang is considered with respect to qi ("breath", "life force", or "spiritual energy"), blood, jing ("kidney essence" or "semen"), other bodily fluids, the Five elements, emotions, and the soul or spirit (shen). TCM has a unique model of the body, notably concerned with the meridian system. Unlike the Western anatomical model which divides the physical body into parts, the Chinese model is more concerned with function. Thus, the TCM Spleen is not a specific piece of flesh, but an aspect of function related to transformation and transportation within the body, and of the mental functions of thinking and studying.

The foundation principles of Chinese medicine are not necessarily uniform, and are based on several schools of thought. Received TCM can be shown to be most influenced by Taoism, Buddhism, and Neo-Confucianism.

Since 1200 BC, Chinese academics of various schools have focused on the observable natural laws of the universe and their implications for the practical characterisation of humanity's place in the universe. In the I Ching and other Chinese literary and philosophical classics, they have described some general principles and their applications to health and healing:

There are observable principles of constant change by which the Universe is maintained. Humans are part of the universe and cannot be separated from the universal process of change.
As a result of these apparently inescapable primordial principles, the Universe (and every process therein) tends to eventually balance itself. Optimum health results from living harmoniously, allowing the spontaneous process of change to bring one closer to balance. If there is no change (stagnation), or too much change (catastrophism), balance is lost and illnesses can result.
Everything is ultimately interconnected. Always use a holistic ("systemic" or "system-wide") approach when addressing imbalances.

--------
Interesting link: http://www.csicop.org/si/9509/chi.html stating: According to traditional Chinese thinking, the Chi flows through our body in a rhythmic manner, and most acupuncture and acupressure methods employ stimulation of points that lie along the acupuncture "meridians" through which Chi is said to flow. When one manipulates an acupuncture point, the traditional explanation for any effect that occurs is that it is caused by an alteration of the flow of Chi under that point.

--------
Now if members of PF "believe" in string theory they should accept Chi as a real possibility.
IMO, after my holistic ideas and theory, the membranes - which isolate and protect the integrity of the entity - will also transmit energies, next to the activities of the entities themselves. When we analyze all parts of the body (like cells) we will find out that everything is constructed by membranes.

 

[labresults]

Projection thought into water

Following along the Qi route, has anyone seen this:

http://www.shunshentao.com/MIND SCIENCE LAB NOTES.htm

Or how about "Selective Brick Breaking" in martial arts:

http://www.shunshentao.com/SELECTIVE_BREAKING_Shun_Shen_Tao.htm

 

[russ_watters]

The first link is just your typical run of the mill nonsense.

The second could be a clever trick, but I'm not sure since the video is of poor quality and the brick doesn't break in the center. Either way, I'm certain I could duplicate it without too much trouble. Maybe not the actual breaking, but certainly setting up the apparatus for someone else to break. The best way to break your hand is to not hit the bricks hard enough...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

On selective breaking:

All feats of so-called chi are tricks that can be reproduced if the demonstrator is willing to be honest. For instance, you mentioned Ed’s stack of bricks without spacers. Ask yourself if it could be possible to pick, stack, age, dry or otherwise have inner knowledge of the substance so as to provide an advantage.

- James Patrick Lacy; post #42

 

[delta001]

I think a lot of these Chi tricks are frauds, but we should always remember that our science is still relatively in infancy. The "supernatural" doesn't have to defy the laws of the physical universe, it's just that often it defys the laws as we know them. Lasers would have seemed like magic in Biblical times, would they not?

In my personal experience, focusing chi/energy does work. When I concentrate (and it doesn't take a lot of concentration, for me) I can feel and focus the energy in my body and hands, especially. But tricks similar to Jedi stuff are probably frauds. Chi/energy is more subtle.

 

[Huckleberry]

I know an engineer who will swear that the technique works, but he doesn't think there is anything mystical involved. However, when he started to explain to me what he saw as the prosaic explanation for why this works, it sounded like a real stretch to me. In fact, it sounded like nonsense to me.

At one point he described how one can build up waves of energy. For example, if one is to throw a right punch, the waves might travel between the right fist and the rear-most foot. The most proficient experts can allegedly quickly produce seven waves, I think it was, which enables an incredibly powerful punch. As a black belt, my buddy could only get to three waves or so.

Allegedly one adds power by piling up waves such that they interfere constructively, if you will, at the fist, at the exact moment of the punch. Of course the question is: Waves of what? He thinks this is something like a mechanical wave traveling along the muscles, but that doesn't make any sense to me. True believers say it is the Chi energy. At the least, it appears that using and practicing this technique mentally, one can dramatically improve the effectiveness of a punch.

The seven waves are probably the seven points of motion in the human body, ankle, knee, hip, back, shoulder, elbow and wrist. Throwing a baseball with only the motion created in ones arms makes for a very poor throw. When all the motion of the entire body from hand to foot, and even the fingers, is added and balanced properly the throw can have tremendous force behind it. Each flexible point in the body allows the pulling power of the muscles to be converted into the pushing force applied to the baseball.

A proper punch uses the entire body to strike. The joints remain flexible until the moment of impact. This allows the motion to be transferred more easily to gain greater speed. On impact the muscles are tightened as quickly as possible and the force is pushed through the target. This allows the force to be transferred to the point of impact as quickly as possible. On a graph this appears as a large spike of force followed immediately by a second smaller spike for the follow through. The clenching of the hand also helps in preventing the smaller bones there from being broken. More important though is the alignment of the hand, wrist and elbowto the target.

Cognitive thought is detrimental to the process. It is best to think of nothing and rely on muscle memory aqcuired from lots of practice. After it's learned it is as second nature as throwing a baseball. With proper technique as much as 3 or 4 tons of force can be applied over a few square inches.

 

[Hareslade]

is chi chi!

This is my first post, having read all yours, I feel yes I do have some input but plase go easy on me, I'm only human writing what turned into an essay...

I was a development engineer in electronics for 30 years, always fascinated by the 'unexplained' in all areas, because after all, I worked in a discipline where the driving force is invisible 'electricity'.

All my work depended on understanding that electromagnetic 'model' and therefore how to use electronics as technology to 'do' things. But I never 'saw' electricity, electric current, the nearest is to that was getting a shock or three, or seeing sparks, and that honestly does not 'feel' like the effect of electrons just moving slightly along a conductor..

At age 35 or so I started to learn tai-chi, or rather, was shown the moves. With my physics knowledge I knew that there was no western equivalent science 'map' for chi.. after 7 years waving my arms about and doing what I was told in class.. I started to experience how to 'do' it.

What I want to say here is, the talk here about whether martial arts relies on 'tricks' is rather missing the point. These 'martial' arts were developed initially for defense, and most teaching's philosophies do say not to fight if one can avoid it. After all, if a large brick lands on your head it doesn't matter if you're a Master or not.

Its interesting that I was told early on, tai chi is the 'inner' art compared to karate an 'outer' art. In old times the participants were trained in the outer art first, the one which showed the physical elements so that people could compete. The inner art was taught much later, because one would have difficulty understanding the inner arts (more linked to a philosophy) before having mastered an outer art.

And this is why western teaching does not really follow the old traditions - often the Master will say, people don't want to learn something invisible (inner art) in the West, they are too used to external things, and very unused to working inside-to-out.

While chi is used in such things as karate, it is not always taught as such. Whereas for tai chi, which relies on that concept even if its called something else, is an inner art much more linked to 'not being there'. In other words, best way is to not get into a fight in the first place! Conserve chi

Its too easy to look at the finger and miss the moon.. in other words, sensibly one has to ask why these arts are so old, therefore what value do they have? The answer for me in 2007, is that they offset the modern western approach which won't accept anything as 'real' unless its been in a laboratory and tested. But on the other mind-hand, as scientists we can't accept that Physicists are not allowed to at least test what the Martial Arts people get up to.

But herein is the problem. I know from experience that science tests things based on the models it already has, or related to a new hypothesis. The old joke is, well if that's the case, how does science ever progress to a new theory.. its impossible because no-one will risk their necks with new ideas unless someone can create the killer experiment that supports the original guy that put the hypotheses forward. Circular.

And no-one can test for an unknown 'field' because all science is finally verified with reference to existing models. In other words, unless I already know what chi is (compared to existing things in the science model) I cannot design a gizmo to test for it because my gizmo is made from a kit of parts from the existent model. Which means quartz crystals on bits of wire are forbiddem scientifically

So acupuncture, chi ideas, antigravity, all the 'mad things' that science is unable to get a handle on, remain 'metaphysics' until someone grounds it.

In terms of chi work, the thing I most remember is someone 'doing the form' (which is a set of movements) about ten feet away behind my back. As I stood there I could feel waves of tingling moving around my body...

This is existential proof unable to be scientifically verified. But there is a vast class of events that we communally accept as 'true' without scientists having to agree. If there was an 'authorised map' for consciousness in textbooks, we would be able each to verify that A and B mind-things are real. As it is, we are in the stone age when it comes to anything consciousness-related.

If you expect 'chi' to be a 'field' in the electromagnetic sense of a field, I personally think that is unlikely. Since all the chi 'examples' are body-related, until we know how body and mind are related (if they are even separable one from the other) science is blind.

Your arm lifts, muscles tense, neourons presumably fire in the brain to tighten the muscles. But we are totally ignorant of the way mind appears to give us personality and consistency day to day - we have very few tools in that area to even fix people who 'go wrong' in the mind.

If you want to know what chi is, go learn the arts which use it, know existentially what chi 'does'. But as for the 'chi detecting machine', technologically until someone understands mind, I don't think we'll get very far with Physicists hats on.

And btw, I sit in both camps.. I can design you a light communication device, or go watch for unidentified lights in the sky. Thats where the problems start.. I've seen lights do things that science would say are not possible given the current models.

Someone said we are like blind men sitting on a cliff.. when we understand chi (experientially) and stop questioning if it exists we may get a bit further in the quest..

So what do I think chi is? I think its an emergent property of a system we are unaware of. And when i say 'we' I mean only the western mind set ruled by science. Many countries have no problem with such ideas, it is us (the new boys on the block) who seem to get taken aback by this stuff.

You don't have to know what water is scientifically, in order to have a drink.:zzz:

 

[rcgldr]

Well after all this discussion, I'd still like to see a match between Chuck Lidell or any current top 10 UFC fighter and any "Chi Master", heck I'd might be willing to pay to see it.

 

[Hareslade]

Hi Jeff.. I know..its all just 'words' isn't it.. maybe watch Enter the Dragon again as a poor substitute

But would you be able to 'see' when chi is being truly used, and when its brute force? I'd pay to see it too, provided they don't permanently damage each other..

 

[Seanysuds]

first words

just to state a few things... there are gm such as dim mak masters who claim wild things and can do them. I have studied dim mak for about 3 years or so and i will adimit my master uses chi or ki or qi quite often and i have never been much into that but the soft touch and certain other things do work. my master can stike me and one spot and another be hurting and other things like that i can't explain and would like an explination if anyone knows it...

 

[Gokul43201]

It might help if you could better describe one of these instances.

 

[Burnsys]

Here is the demonstration of a so called Kiai master 'Yanagiryuken'



In the video he takes to the ground tens of is students without even touching them!

He trust his powers so much that he offered U$S 10.000 to anyone who could defeat him in a fight.

A mma fighter (UFC style) accepted the challenge...

Here is the video of the fight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMgVmFzBrus&NR=1

LOL. after seeing this video all i can think is, he really believed he has the powers! You can't be so stupid to know you are lying and challenge a real fighter!
What amaze me are his students! Is auto-suggestion the real force behind the Chi?
I think the relationships Student Teachers it's like the emperor clothes...

 

[ZapperZ]

It all comes back to that "placebo effect", I tell ya! It is just another demonstration of how each one of us can be extremely susceptible to things that can easily be non-existent.

Zz.

 

[Mallignamius]

For whoever's interested, I propose as an experiment, the standard Reiki technique of "feeling one's aura". If you slowly bring your palms together, there will be a separation where you will feel what I can only describe as a very weak repulsion between your palms - as though you were compressing a bubble between your hands. It helps to close your eyes and concentrate on the feeling in your palms. Rubbing your palms before starting is also said to help. I can feel this repulsion at about about a 2 inch separation.

I know this is old in our thread, but I tried this a few times and it felt more like my hands were going to pass through each other! Maybe my aura is negative. Actually, I believe it had more to do with where my mind was expecting my hands to meet (esp. after moving them slowly - and yet because you know your hands are still moving toward each other, at some point your brain might be telling you that it shouldn't go any further). With some modification, I'd bet similar experiments could be conducted under very different circumstances, and yield like experiences.