Is Chi an Actual Force in Our Bodies and Surroundings?

[Pythagorean]

I know an engineer who will swear that the technique works, but he doesn't think there is anything mystical involved. However, when he started to explain to me what he saw as the prosaic explanation for why this works, it sounded like a real stretch to me. In fact, it sounded like nonsense to me.

At one point he described how one can build up waves of energy. For example, if one is to throw a right punch, the waves might travel between the right fist and the rear-most foot. The most proficient experts can allegedly quickly produce seven waves, I think it was, which enables an incredibly powerful punch. As a black belt, my buddy could only get to three waves or so.

Allegedly one adds power by piling up waves such that they interfere constructively, if you will, at the fist, at the exact moment of the punch. Of course the question is: Waves of what? He thinks this is something like a mechanical wave traveling along the muscles, but that doesn't make any sense to me. True believers say it is the Chi energy. At the least, it appears that using and practicing this technique mentally, one can dramatically improve the effectiveness of a punch.

I am a prior martial artist and just about to graduate with a physics degree. I believe the "wave" that most people describe is related to an actual muscle tensing propagation that starts at the feet and goes up through the hips (where a lot of power comes from). As a martial artist, I can tell this is more powerful (I mean, obviously, you have to use the ground to push yourself forward anyway, so a lot of punching power already automatically comes from you pushing off of the friction bond between your feet and the ground). By following through with your hips, you're putting your whole upper body weight into the punch, and of course, you have to throw the fist out, so it's very natural to feel like you're muscles are a propagating wave..

I don't, however, think there's multiple waves. Perhaps they psychologically prep themselves for the physical wave-like motion of the muscles by doing a few imaginary runs first or something. or do a small muscle propagation (like a warm-up swing).

Other than that, I've noticed a lot of sensory can be thermodynamic and optical (with my eyes closed, I can sense somebody putting their hand near my body because I can feel the heat, or if they step in front of light it still dims what photons get through my eyelids. Or sometimes people will block off acoustic radiation and you don't often consciously recognize it, but your ears picks it up and your brain sends a little red flag up.

I had a sensei who claimed our "comfort bubble" was our energy/sensory field. I suppose that sort of makes sense in the way that you tend to notice when people are inside your comfort bubble, but I think it all comes down to our five, well-known senses working on a more subtle level.

 

[SoleKundalite]

It can make your stronger, as in do more reps of a particular weight than normally. Lately I've become better at channeling it allowing me to perform even better at bench press. But it makes more significant strides in giving you so much stamina you barely sweat while all the other guys are sweating like hogs.

[A picture of goosebumps don't prove squat.]

 

[seycyrus]

It can make your stronger, as in do more reps of a particular weight than normally. Lately I've become better at channeling it allowing me to perform even better at bench press. .

How many times can you put up 315?

But it makes more significant strides in giving you so much stamina you barely sweat while all the other guys are sweating like hogs.

Because they are working harder than you. They are curling 45s for 8-10 reps, and you are curling 30 oz for 1000 reps. Do you sweat from chewing bubble gum? Imagine the CHI you must be unleashing to allow yourself to all those reps with the bubbleicious!

Explain why and how adrenaline modifies the body's cooling response.

Noone is disputing that adrenaline has certain effects on the body. What is being disputed is your CHI-adrenaline.

 

[JayR]

Yep, a whole lot of training and the never ending ability of people to underestimate the capabilities of the human body.

 

[Poop-Loops]

It can make your stronger, as in do more reps of a particular weight than normally.

Everything I've read on weight lifting and strength training tells me you are wrong.

You do NOT gain strength by lifting small weights a lot of times.

You gain strength by lifting large weights, even if it's only a few times.

Can you do this? http://youtube.com/watch?v=mcM_SCp2KHA

 

[striker5585]

lifting

lifting small weights with more reps tone and lifting heavy weights with less reps builds strength.

 

[Poop-Loops]

lifting small weights with more reps tone and lifting heavy weights with less reps builds strength.

Wrong.

Lifting small weights with more reps wastes time. Lifting heavy weights with less reps builds strength and muscle.

http://exercise.about.com/cs/weightloss/a/toning.htm
http://www.allspiritfitness.com/library/QandA/qa_toning_myth.shtml
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/goulet5.htm
http://tcfitness-24.com/TCFitness-tips/forums/13/PrintPost.html

 

[SoleKundalite]

How many times can you put up 315?



Because they are working harder than you. They are curling 45s for 8-10 reps, and you are curling 30 oz for 1000 reps. Do you sweat from chewing bubble gum? Imagine the CHI you must be unleashing to allow yourself to all those reps with the bubbleicious!

Explain why and how adrenaline modifies the body's cooling response.

Noone is disputing that adrenaline has certain effects on the body. What is being disputed is your CHI-adrenaline.

No, it's not because they're working harder than me. I've watched how they react and proceeded to use the same machine they did and used a weight that I felt was as heavy for me relative to the heavier weight they were using (these guys were much bigger and obviously lifted consistently for a much longer time period). If I see guys who seem to be similar in muscle content and workout consistency as myself we would obviously use similar weight for a comparisson. Other than that I can say my current performance has far exceeded my past normal abilities.

As far as benching 315, you are using ridiculous numbers for someone who has been in academia for quite a while and thus not spend much time at the gym consistently. But I can assure you that anyone who can summon this Chi/Adrenaline, say tomorrow, who can bench 315 today should be able to do more reps than he thought possible (maybe 10-25% more than what is normally possible without the adrenaline rushes... w/ lighter weights he should be able to increase reps even more relative to normal). He also won't feel like he's exerted himself much after using each station or routine.

I haven't researched anything w/ regard to hardly sweating. I think it has to do w/ my body not feeling like it's exerted itself as much. Lifting what a person of my stature/consistency/muscle content can at this moment has been by and far much easier than in the past as long as I shoot some rushes every 20-30 minutes.

Here's a little more about adrenaline power:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/adrenaline-strength.htm/printable

 

[SoleKundalite]

Wrong.

Lifting small weights with more reps wastes time. Lifting heavy weights with less reps builds strength and muscle.

http://exercise.about.com/cs/weightloss/a/toning.htm
http://www.allspiritfitness.com/library/QandA/qa_toning_myth.shtml
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/goulet5.htm
http://tcfitness-24.com/TCFitness-tips/forums/13/PrintPost.html

I have no interest in becoming a gargantuan, esp. since I'm under 6 feet.

 

[SoleKundalite]

Everything I've read on weight lifting and strength training tells me you are wrong.

You do NOT gain strength by lifting small weights a lot of times.

You gain strength by lifting large weights, even if it's only a few times.

Can you do this? http://youtube.com/watch?v=mcM_SCp2KHA

If you are able to do more reps by using the rushes of the max weight that you use for a certain routine then you are in essence stronger/more powerful than your normal self. Maybe your muscle isn't in actuality much stronger than normal but the adrenaline gives you like some extra internal power/strength to push the muscle beyond normal ability.

 

[SoleKundalite]

I am a prior martial artist and just about to graduate with a physics degree. I believe the "wave" that most people describe is related to an actual muscle tensing propagation that starts at the feet and goes up through the hips (where a lot of power comes from). As a martial artist, I can tell this is more powerful (I mean, obviously, you have to use the ground to push yourself forward anyway, so a lot of punching power already automatically comes from you pushing off of the friction bond between your feet and the ground). By following through with your hips, you're putting your whole upper body weight into the punch, and of course, you have to throw the fist out, so it's very natural to feel like you're muscles are a propagating wave..

I don't, however, think there's multiple waves. Perhaps they psychologically prep themselves for the physical wave-like motion of the muscles by doing a few imaginary runs first or something. or do a small muscle propagation (like a warm-up swing).

Other than that, I've noticed a lot of sensory can be thermodynamic and optical (with my eyes closed, I can sense somebody putting their hand near my body because I can feel the heat, or if they step in front of light it still dims what photons get through my eyelids. Or sometimes people will block off acoustic radiation and you don't often consciously recognize it, but your ears picks it up and your brain sends a little red flag up.

I had a sensei who claimed our "comfort bubble" was our energy/sensory field. I suppose that sort of makes sense in the way that you tend to notice when people are inside your comfort bubble, but I think it all comes down to our five, well-known senses working on a more subtle level.

Adrenaline/Chi = fight of flight response/feeling like there's an energy field around you but iit's prob just the feeling of the goosebumps+forearm hairs standing on end and adrenaline/endorphins flowing. This has nothing to do w/ the punching power mechanism you are describing. As mentioned previously this adrenaline/Chi ability is extremely rare. I've been keeping my eyes peeled at various gyms (I feel like I'm cheating by using the energy hehehe) and still haven't found others like me. There are two energy healers that I will get in contact w/ soon who supposedly also have this ability.

 

[seycyrus]

No, it's not because they're working harder than me.

Yes it was.

I've watched how they react and proceeded to use the same machine they did and used a weight that I felt was as heavy for me relative to the heavier weight they were using

You "felt" it was as relatively heavy. That's subjective.

Other than that I can say my current performance has far exceeded my past normal abilities.

That's a benefit of working out, you get stronger. CHI has nothing to do with it.

As far as benching 315, you are using ridiculous numbers for someone who has been in academia for quite a while and thus not spend much time at the gym consistently.

Excuse me? I've had experiences with academia myself. Academia have as much free time as they require. The gym is on campus, a nice little walk near the place where you work. It's a lot more convenient compared to someone who has to drive 30 minutes in heavy traffic and then hunt for a parking space near the gym.

The reason why you aren't that strong is because you haven't made the commitment to work out. Your "academia" excuse is just that, an excuse.

Btw, the reason why you aren't going to get any stronger is because you insist on doing 100s of reps with teeny weight.

Increase the poundage. See the results.

I haven't researched anything w/ regard to hardly sweating. I think it has to do w/ my body not feeling like it's exerted itself as much.

That's an illogical conclusion. Your body doesn't work this way.

 

[Poop-Loops]

Okay, let's check the list:

Very vague descriptions: check.

Allusion to some sort of energy: check.

No idea about the "established" theories in the field, but still has his own ideas that he KNOWS are different and better and zomg why won't we listen?: check.

Can we just conclude this guy is a crackpot and move on? Browse a martial arts board like Bullshido where they debunk stuff like this on a daily basis. No magic about it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Let's move on.

I still want to know how someone can take a hard blow to the throat.

 

[Poop-Loops]

It's called adrenaline and muscles. You still have muscles in your throat, even if they aren't big ones. Tensing them though makes for a much better barrier than just regular relaxed muscles.

Adrenaline is a very powerful agent, though. I'm sure all of us guys here have been hit in the testicles either on accident or by some hateful person? Well in a fight, it won't work as well, because the adrenaline WILL mask the pain. That's why womens Self-Defense classes that focus on that one move are total BS.

Let's take a look at this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bv90DtpHTj4

and this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jtz3FoyDM38

Notice how in both cases the fighter doesn't even realize that the leg is broken until he tries to stand on it? The adrenaline during that fight just told his brain "Don't worry about it." until he noticed it himself and them ZOMG IT HURTZ!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It's called adrenaline and muscles. You still have muscles in your throat, even if they aren't big ones. Tensing them though makes for a much better barrier than just regular relaxed muscles.

Adrenaline is a very powerful agent, though. I'm sure all of us guys here have been hit in the testicles either on accident or by some hateful person? Well in a fight, it won't work as well, because the adrenaline WILL mask the pain. That's why womens Self-Defense classes that focus on that one move are total BS.

Let's take a look at this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bv90DtpHTj4

and this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jtz3FoyDM38

Notice how in both cases the fighter doesn't even realize that the leg is broken until he tries to stand on it? The adrenaline during that fight just told his brain "Don't worry about it." until he noticed it himself and them ZOMG IT HURTZ!

It's not the pain, it's the lack of soft tissue damage that interests me. And the trachea has very little protection via muscles.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepages/1118.htm

I was once clothes-lined while playing football, which amounts to a hard blow to the throat. This is not something to be taken lightly.

The same goes for some of these breaking stunts. Alright, there are tricks to help make these stunts possible, but to me that doesn't explain how this is ever done more than once by anyone person. I would expect the physical damage to be too severe for the stunt to be repeated. In some cases I don't see how we could even have enough muscle and bone to withstand these stunts without the arm snapping like a twig.

One can waive arms and claim that this is nothing but muscle control, but I still want to know how that is possible.

How can this be quantified?

 

[Poop-Loops]

Bone is stronger than cement when it is inside the body, i.e. not dried up and marrow taken out. That's how you can break bricks and stuff.

Also take note that bricks are brittle and bone is bendy. Not a lot, but have you ever seen someone try to break a FRESH 4x4? They break things that are dried up or brittle.

Breaking bricks, bending frying pans, ripping phone books in half, it's all down to physics, my friend.

Bending frying pan:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2O90vLm7SCI&feature=related

Notice how he doesn't stop mid way but keeps bending? It's to keep the metal warm and easier to bend.

Brick:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=i4GB2rAxBN4

Many bricks:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8nmoCTo513M

Besides this being a flashy load of BS, look at the stack of bricks. It's not stacked one on another, they have spacers. That means you are breaking a single brick many times. The one on the bottom? It has the whole stack coming down on it. But also, it's not only his arm or leg, it's his entire body. This guy tries to do it with a 10lb sledge hammer, and is then surprised when he uses all 250+ pounds of himself and it does work? Come on.

Is it easy? Hell no. But there's no magic involved is all I'm saying.

EDIT: Okay, sorry, the 2nd video I posted is such a load of BS it's sickening. Here are some more examples, though:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LF4BLBGRgqk&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lijz5RjQkVc

 

[FredGarvin]

That last video has a guy who looks like he escaped from the "pimp my gi" thread.

 

[Poop-Loops]

It's a special suit that cultivates Chi. You need to be at LEAST level 40 to wear it.

+5 to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.

-20 to Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Bone is stronger than cement when it is inside the body, i.e. not dried up and marrow taken out. That's how you can break bricks and stuff.

Also take note that bricks are brittle and bone is bendy. Not a lot, but have you ever seen someone try to break a FRESH 4x4? They break things that are dried up or brittle.

Breaking bricks, bending frying pans, ripping phone books in half, it's all down to physics, my friend.

Bending frying pan:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2O90vLm7SCI&feature=related

Notice how he doesn't stop mid way but keeps bending? It's to keep the metal warm and easier to bend.

Brick:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=i4GB2rAxBN4

Many bricks:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8nmoCTo513M

Besides this being a flashy load of BS, look at the stack of bricks. It's not stacked one on another, they have spacers. That means you are breaking a single brick many times. The one on the bottom? It has the whole stack coming down on it. But also, it's not only his arm or leg, it's his entire body. This guy tries to do it with a 10lb sledge hammer, and is then surprised when he uses all 250+ pounds of himself and it does work? Come on.

Is it easy? Hell no. But there's no magic involved is all I'm saying.

EDIT: Okay, sorry, the 2nd video I posted is such a load of BS it's sickening. Here are some more examples, though:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LF4BLBGRgqk&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lijz5RjQkVc

First of all, no one is talking about magic here. I have made this clear a number of times already. The question is whether or not we can explain the mechanics of what takes place. Just because we might not be able to explain something, there is no reason to start demanding magic as the only alternative to trickery or illusions.

So far all of you answers have been what we would expect to be the correct explanations, but it also arm waiving. For example, are you an expert on the human throat and the associated muscles? I personally do not understand the proportions involved and have real doubts that we fully understand what's happening here. And unless someone can post some published papers that support or confirm the explanations that we expect to be the correct ones, it is falacious to claim that we have a scientific explanation for what is observed.
http://www.ironpalm.com/Brown.html

Note that in the absence of a formal and published explanation, assuming that we can't find any, some of these stunts might qualify for Randi's challenge. Can Randi provide scientific proof of an explanation for breaking stunts like that pictured below?

 

[Poop-Loops]

Ivan, it's good to see you aren't being drawn into this, just approaching it with an open mind. I wasn't quite sure at first.

The reason I am being so apprehensive against this is because I have 1st hand experience being scammed into it and have been "into" BS martial arts for a while. Yes, I know, anecdotal evidence doesn't count.

But do me a favor and go here:
www.bullshido.net

The website is dedicated to "fighting BS in martial arts", whether it's claims of Chi, claims of secret Interpol missions, or what have you. Many have been debunked there and some even put behind bars for afore mentioned pretending to be an Interpol agent to get students.

You might not like their attitude since the forum is largely unmoderated, but they ARE serious about the "mission" so you can read some of the threads in their main forum here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10

And in the Classic Threads forum here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=33

LOTS of these people are frauds. For example the picture you posted. It's an old grainy photo. Surely you aren't putting that forth as evidence?

The two guys who break stuff (the video I posted) are legit, the only difference being I believe it is simply due to body mechanics and they choose to throw in some jargon on top of it. Which is what it really boils down to. Claiming super powers gets a lot more students than claiming physics and proper body mechanics, like this guy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp0yCP0Emr8&feature=related

Interview with him:
http://www.atomicathletic.com/articles/detail.asp?ArtID=68

It's the exact same principles.

 

[SoleKundalite]

http://www.millenniummartial-arts.com/meaning.html

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=118905&page=12

Do a word search on these sites for "adrenaline" and you'll notice it has references to "Ki", the Japanese term for "Chi". Surprised no one caught on to this earlier since one of the articles was posted in 2004.

 

[SoleKundalite]

http://www.virtuescience.com/pranic.html

http://www.martialartstalk.net/forums/taekwondo/7695-kichikiyup.html

http://www.ustkd.com/ki.htm

Word search "adrenaline"

 

[Poop-Loops]

So if Chi is adrenaline, then it has a mundane explanation and isn't the magic "energy" people talk about. End of story.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

LOTS of these people are frauds. For example the picture you posted. It's an old grainy photo. Surely you aren't putting that forth as evidence?

These stunts are performed on a regular basis. Our own Doc Al personally witnessed a highly trained martial artist take a hard blow to the throat, as he stated earlier.

This is why I suggested Randi's Challenge. If any of dozens of apparently legitimate stunts can be duplicated, then I fail to see how Randi could provide a scientific explanation that is supported by published works. Less cases of obvious fraud, so far the ONLY explanations that I've seen are arm waiving.

 

[Poop-Loops]

These stunts are performed on a regular basis. Our own Doc Al personally witnessed a highly trained martial artist take a hard blow to the throat, as he stated earlier.

So what? I saw Dave Copperfield move the statue of liberty. I guess he really did it, then? Because I can't think of a normal way it could have been done, therefore he is God.

PROTIP: That's now how it works.

This is why I suggested Randi's Challenge. If any of dozens of apparently legitimate stunts can be duplicated, then I fail to see how Randi could provide a scientific explanation that is supported by published works. Less cases of obvious fraud, so far the ONLY explanations that I've seen are arm waiving.

The hell you did. I explicitly told you that a combination of adrenaline and tensing your muscles is all it takes. I gave you examples of people bending HAMMERS AND WRENCHES for fun, not claiming any supernatural ability.

And now you even have the proponent of this garbage claiming it's just adrenaline.

Open your eyes, man. Did you even go to Bullshido like I told you to? You'd have learned a lot from there.

EDIT: You ever hear of people getting their arms blown off during war and still carrying on? Not even noticing that it happened? Yeah, it's called adrenaline and the right mindset. There is nothing magical about it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So what? I saw Dave Copperfield move the statue of liberty. I guess he really did it, then? Because I can't think of a normal way it could have been done, therefore he is God.

PROTIP: That's now how it works.

First of all, what is your background in all of this? What qualifies you to make any assertions whatsoever? Next, I have seen enough of this to be convinced that although tricks are used, there are still perplexing aspects of some of these demonstrations. Of course that is only my opinion, but I have yet see a detailed scientific analysis of the most impressive feats. What I have seen is arm waiving based on expectations.

The hell you did.

Watch your tone.

I explicitly told you that a combination of adrenaline and tensing your muscles is all it takes. I gave you examples of people bending HAMMERS AND WRENCHES for fun, not claiming any supernatural ability.

And now you even have the proponent of this garbage claiming it's just adrenaline.

Open your eyes, man. Did you even go to Bullshido like I told you to? You'd have learned a lot from there.

EDIT: You ever hear of people getting their arms blown off during war and still carrying on? Not even noticing that it happened? Yeah, it's called adrenaline and the right mindset. There is nothing magical about it.

I am familiar with all sorts of stunts, but what interests me are not the ones that are easy to understand, it is the stunts that seem to defy logic. Pointing fingers at stunts easily explained is a red herring.

Also, "adrenaline and tensing your muscles" is not an explanation. This is about limits and whether we understand how those limits are achieved.

 

[SoleKundalite]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ENeQ_2A41Us&feature=user#

http://youtube.com/watch?v=77nD5xmL0kU&feature=related

 

[Pythagorean]

It's not the pain, it's the lack of soft tissue damage that interests me. And the trachea has very little protection via muscles.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepages/1118.htm

I was once clothes-lined while playing football, which amounts to a hard blow to the throat. This is not something to be taken lightly.

The same goes for some of these breaking stunts. Alright, there are tricks to help make these stunts possible, but to me that doesn't explain how this is ever done more than once by anyone person. I would expect the physical damage to be too severe for the stunt to be repeated. In some cases I don't see how we could even have enough muscle and bone to withstand these stunts without the arm snapping like a twig.

One can waive arms and claim that this is nothing but muscle control, but I still want to know how that is possible.

How can this be quantified?

One way to quantify one explanation is dp/dt (impulse)

You ever throw a hardball back and forth with a friend without a mitt? You very quickly (and naturally) learn that you have to drop your hand as you catch it, so that you slow it down more gradually. It stings a lot less this way than if you took the full impact, holding your hand solid against it (or imagine how moving toward the ball as you caught it would hurt more and possibly cause more damage).

When I was in martial arts, we did a similar trick for getting punched in the stomach (solar plexus, really) in which we'd tense and hold strong stomach muscles, and then let out a bit of air with the impact (which has the same effect as the technique for throwing balls without mitts). Of course, with this one you have to be careful not to let out too much air or you'll get winded.

I can contest that this did actually work for the stomach, and we all know about Muhammad Ali who would roll his head away from punches for the some effect.

As for the throat, It's possible (pot not probable, imo) that someone learned a technique where they could somehow flex their throat (or swallow) in a fashion that more gradually absorbed the impulse.

 

[Poop-Loops]

Thanks for deleting my posts by the way. I actually provide good evidence and explanations and you dismiss (although I don't know who actually deleted them) them because why exactly? So much for open discussion.

 

[Quadruple Bypass]

interesting

 

[Moonbear]

These stunts are performed on a regular basis. Our own Doc Al personally witnessed a highly trained martial artist take a hard blow to the throat, as he stated earlier.

This is why I suggested Randi's Challenge. If any of dozens of apparently legitimate stunts can be duplicated, then I fail to see how Randi could provide a scientific explanation that is supported by published works. Less cases of obvious fraud, so far the ONLY explanations that I've seen are arm waiving.

I've just gone through this whole thread and can't find reference to a blow to the throat. What evidence is there that it has happened (i.e., not just a trick) and how is it performed (i.e., where exactly on the throat has the blow been placed, and with what part of the opponent's body?) A wide enough blow, such as might occur by the full palm of the hand, or side of the hand, or a foot, could likely be stopped in a very muscular person by the sternocleidomastoid muscle, which is one that can be worked out and developed (it's the very prominent muscle in those thick-necked body builders). Combine tensing that muscle (a subtle tucking of the chin would do it) and then relaxing and bobbing the head back slightly, and you might be able to absorb a pretty substantial blow (still might hurt like heck, but hey, the bruises won't show up until the camera is off). There are a few other muscles running up to the larynx (Adam's apple), that might provide a little protection from a blow slightly below it. If it were more like 2 fingers dead center to the Adam's apple, that might be harder to explain.

 

[Poop-Loops]

I am assuming this is the blow to the throat that everybody is thinking of:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=45hWbIy5Fkk

Or at least, the guys who are famous for it. The blows to the nuts are interesting, but notice how nobody ever punches the guy to the throat with a real punch? Some muscled guys do it, but if you've ever thrown a punch you know those things are pretty weak.

Hey, here's a Ki master:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&NR=1

 

[Moonbear]

I am assuming this is the blow to the throat that everybody is thinking of:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=45hWbIy5Fkk

Or at least, the guys who are famous for it. The blows to the nuts are interesting, but notice how nobody ever punches the guy to the throat with a real punch? Some muscled guys do it, but if you've ever thrown a punch you know those things are pretty weak.

The only blow to the throat I see in that clip glances off to the left, and doesn't follow through direct to the throat at all. Looks more like the stunts staged for WWF than any real blow.

 

[Poop-Loops]

The problem with a lot of these Karate types is that their punches aren't proper. The fact is, they don't know how to throw a punch.

Yes yes, I'm insulting a lot of people, but let me explain. A lot of Karate/Tae Kwon Do/Kung Fu schools are garbage pure and simple. Again, go to www.bullshido.net to see the kind of frauds being exposed.

The point is that Karate has been tainted with bad teachers and it's hard to find a good school. A lot of them teach you improper punches (proper being a boxing type punch) that don't really do much damage.

Moreover, you take untrained people, and they are equally as unskilled at punching.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I've just gone through this whole thread and can't find reference to a blow to the throat. What evidence is there that it has happened (i.e., not just a trick) and how is it performed (i.e., where exactly on the throat has the blow been placed, and with what part of the opponent's body?)

Whoops, Doc Al made a comment that he had personally witnessed this and I thought it was here.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I am assuming this is the blow to the throat that everybody is thinking of:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=45hWbIy5Fkk

Yes, this is all based on some YouTube video from unknown sources.

Or at least, the guys who are famous for it. The blows to the nuts are interesting, but notice how nobody ever punches the guy to the throat with a real punch? Some muscled guys do it, but if you've ever thrown a punch you know those things are pretty weak.

Hey, here's a Ki master:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I&NR=1

Going back to the basics: The simple fact is that there are worlds records for breaking bricks, and I have yet to see these demostrations explained by science. The breaks are done with and without spacers, and being that these are public demonstrations that require verification, I fail to see why arm waiving is needed to explain these feats.

In fact I would strongly urge any true experts out there who can perform these extreme feats to take-on Randi's Challenge. I don't think there is anything supernatural involved, but I seriously doubt that the mechanics of some of these feats can be explained, and if true, you could make a quick million bucks. Of course Randi may decline the offer.

 

[Moonbear]

Going back to the basics: The simple fact is that there are worlds records for breaking bricks, and I have yet to see these demostrations explained by science. The breaks are done with and without spacers, and being that these are public demonstrations that require verification, I fail to see why arm waiving is needed to explain these feats.

I thought that all had to do with the way the bricks were made, placed, and the particular location and way they were struck so the bricks more easily gave way (and a lot of broken hands with misplaced breaks while learning)? I don't have any links or references, but seem to recall it being explained that way by someone doing a martial arts demo (actually, I recall it was someone giving a self-defense lecture making the point that martial arts wouldn't make us super-human, just buy us the time to get away and run).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, I quoted a grand-master earlier in the thread, but even he admits that some of these are still feats to be appreciated. Allegedly genuine world's record would require good controls, and in fact the only measurments that I've ever seen of the forces involved were I think in the range of 2000 lbs or more. Whatever the number was, it was difficult to understand how an inch of bone and a pound of muscle could sustain such forces.

IMO, some of this stuff gets rationalized away when there is no need for it.

Edit: In other words, just because some fudging is done that make the feat seem even more impressive than it really is, it may still be quite legitimately impressive.

 

[Moonbear]

Yes, I quoted a grand-master earlier in the thread, but even he admits that some of these are still feats to be appreciated. Allegedly genuine world's record would require good controls, and in fact the only measurments that I've ever seen of the forces involved were I think in the range of 2000 lbs or more. Whatever the number was, it was difficult to understand how an inch of bone and a pound of muscle could sustain such forces.

What do you mean only an inch of bone? The way I've seen it done, the forces would be transferred up the length of the bones of the forearm. Even on a fairly short person, that gives you 12 inches of bone, at least. (Not sure if the upper arm is much involved or just the lower arm.) I think, if anything, the awe-inspiring part is that the human body can take such impacts and remain intact more than that there's anything mysterious happening.

 

[Poop-Loops]

Yes, this is all based on some YouTube video from unknown sources.

LOL you're a riot Ivan. Combat Ki is pretty well-known and was in at least one mainstream documentary. Look at all the Google hits you get:

http://www.google.com/search?q=comb...=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a

You should actually be thanking me for supporting your case with this video, but whatever.

Going back to the basics: The simple fact is that there are worlds records for breaking bricks, and I have yet to see these demostrations explained by science. The breaks are done with and without spacers, and being that these are public demonstrations that require verification, I fail to see why arm waiving is needed to explain these feats.

Let me see them without spacers. All you've shown me is a grainy photo.

In fact I would strongly urge any true experts out there who can perform these extreme feats to take-on Randi's Challenge. I don't think there is anything supernatural involved, but I seriously doubt that the mechanics of some of these feats can be explained, and if true, you could make a quick million bucks. Of course Randi may decline the offer.

[annoying comments deleted by Ivan]

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=208

 

[Poop-Loops]

Yes, I quoted a grand-master earlier in the thread, but even he admits that some of these are still feats to be appreciated. Allegedly genuine world's record would require good controls, and in fact the only measurments that I've ever seen of the forces involved were I think in the range of 2000 lbs or more. Whatever the number was, it was difficult to understand how an inch of bone and a pound of muscle could sustain such forces.

Difficult for you doesn't mean difficult. Ever here of a "wave"? The shock travels through the body. Again, you're talking to someone who's actually done this, just in a lesser degree.

Did you watch the video I posted?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Av9bJ_6VSGc

Here's a boxing punch in slow mo:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3BzSkb6IbGs

Look for some others. You'll see the hit travels through the recipient's body.

PROTIP: There is no world governing body for "martial arts". Anybody can declare themselves a grand master and start their own school, and many do.

IMO, some of this stuff gets rationalized away when there is no need for it.

Edit: In other words, just because some fudging is done that make the feat seem even more impressive than it really is, it may still be quite legitimately impressive.

Impressive, but not magic like you seem to be implying.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Impressive, but not magic like you seem to be implying.

I said specifically and at least several times that I'm not claiming anything supernatural. If you continue to imply that I have said otherwise, you will be banned.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I thought there were already some links in this thread... But I am talking about records that already exist. In case you aren't aware of it, not all of history is found on YouTube. And no photo or video is proof of anything, so I will have to so some looking for best sources. I will dig up some references when time allows.

 

[Poop-Loops]

I said specifically and at least several times that I'm not claiming anything supernatural. If you continue to imply that I have said otherwise, you will be banned.

If you're not implying anything supernatural, then what is it you are implying? You say regular physics isn't an explanation and even suggest that these people take up the Randi challenge. I'm really not understanding your viewpoint here.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is a big difference between claiming that there may be a mystery and claiming the mystery is explained only by supernatural forces - supernatural meaning [I guess] that something can't be explained, even in principle. The entire point of science is to explain mysteries. So to say that we have a mystery is not a call for the supernatural.

What's more, saying "tense muscles and adrenalin", or making vague references to waves is meaningless. This does not explain the biomechanics of the event. Now, I am at a disadvantage here because most of what I have seen took place twenty-five years ago, so I can't just pull references out of a hat, but I have seen enough to have serious doubts about the arm-waiving dismissals of some of these feats. And the records that I have seen online are in-line with what I remembered. So, as I said, I will have to spend a little time looking for the best references available.

Hoaxes and frauds are easy to find - they are everywhere - but a few or even a million hoaxes do not discredit the entire subject; nor does the fact that tricks are used to amplify the results. To me the questions are: What is the most credible evidence for the most extreme feats, and have they been properly studied or evaluated?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As for Randi's Challenge, that is the obvious problem with the challenge: What is "supernatural"? There is no way to prove that something unexplainable is fundamentally unexplainable. It is a meaningless challenge. Or, he means anything that can't be readily explained. In the former case it is a fraudulant challenge because the words are meaningless, in the latter case he should be liable to pay-up for any of dozens of mysteries of science.

The simplest example of what I mean is our very existence. This cannot be explained by science, nor can we prove that a God made the universe, but unless Randi can explain the Big Bang, I think he owes me a million bucks. I submit it as proof of the supernatural - it clearly happened, and he can't explain it with the laws of physics.

 

[Poop-Loops]

In that case do you think this can be explained using simple Newtonian mechanics?

 

[JayR]

I can't see the "magic" here at all.

This could be moved to General Discussion.

I would like this chat continue though.

We can't do the math, nobody strikes another with their full capacity, unless their life depends on it.
How do you measure that? It could be done but would, I figure, be unethical.

I'm with Ivan. There is a mystery for us to work on.

 

[Poop-Loops]

We can't do the math, nobody strikes another with their full capacity, unless their life depends on it.
How do you measure that? It could be done but would, I figure, be unethical.

Watch MMA matches like UFC. They get some nasty hits in there sometimes, and yes, they are going full force. The gloves they use are there to protect their own hands, so they can punch even harder.