Is cosmic muon lifetime extension a valid test of relativity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the validity of cosmic muon experiments as a test of relativity, particularly focusing on the implications of relativistic time dilation and the assumptions underlying the experiments. Participants explore the variations in the Lorentz factor (γ), the altitude at which muons are produced, and the overall reliability of cosmic muon experiments compared to laboratory measurements.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that cosmic ray muons reach the Earth's surface in greater numbers than expected, suggesting that relativistic time dilation is a factor.
  • There is a range of reported γ values from different experiments, with some participants questioning the reasons for this variation, suggesting it may relate to different energy levels of muons.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about the assumption that cosmic ray protons produce muons primarily at an altitude of about 15 km, questioning whether this assumption is validated by experiments.
  • Another participant argues that the variation in muon production altitudes could affect the observed muon count ratios and proposes that the assumption of a fixed altitude might be retrofitted to align with observed data.
  • Some participants highlight the historical context of cosmic muon experiments and compare them to other high-precision tests of relativity, suggesting that laboratory measurements may be more reliable.
  • There is a discussion about the credibility of various sources and references related to cosmic muon experiments, with participants seeking reliable literature and studies.
  • One participant mentions that muons can also be produced in controlled environments, such as particle accelerators, which provides a different context for studying muons compared to cosmic sources.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the reliability and validity of cosmic muon experiments as a proof of relativity. While some acknowledge the extension of muon lifetime due to relativistic effects, there is no consensus on the implications of the assumptions made in these experiments or their standing in the hierarchy of evidence for relativity.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the potential limitations of the assumptions regarding muon production altitude and the variation in γ values across different experiments. The discussion highlights the complexity of the experimental conditions and the need for careful consideration of the underlying factors influencing the results.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying relativity, cosmic ray physics, or experimental physics, particularly in understanding the nuances and challenges associated with cosmic muon experiments.

arindamsinha
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Experiments show that cosmic ray muons reach Earth surface in greater numbers than they should, unless relativistic time dilation is taken into consideration. It also seems to confirm the SR formula mathematically.

However, looking at a lot of different experiment records, I have some doubts about the validity of the experiments. I would like to get an opinion from those in this forum who are knowledgeable in this area.

My questions are:
1) Consensus looks as if the cosmic muons travel at about 98% of the speed of light, and therefore have a γ of about 5, and some experiments confirm this. This seems to confirm the SR time dilation formula with a very high precision.
  • Now, there seem to be some different experiments showing different γ's ranging from about 5 to 189 (based on what I can find on the internet). Why this variation of γ? Is it because different experiments focus on different energy levels of muons?
  • Which are the reliable/officially accepted experiments?

2) There also seems to be an assumption that the cosmic ray protons produce muons at an altitude of about 15 km (~ 9 miles) from the Earth surface.
  • Is there any validation of this assumption? Where did this assumption come from?
  • Should the protons not be creating muons at various altitudes (perhaps with some sort of Poisson distribution between altitude and muon numbers produced?)
  • Is this assumption a necessary one for the purpose of validating the SR formula?

One overall question - how valid are the cosmic muon experiments as a proof of relativity theory (i.e. is it among the top proofs, or low down in the order)? I am not questioning the fact whether muon lifetime does get extended (which I accept), only how valid the "exact mathematical application" of SR formula is given what seems to be somewhat fuzzy assumptions?

Any insights will be greatly helpful.
 
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arindamsinha said:
Now, there seem to be some different experiments showing different γ's ranging from about 5 to 189 (based on what I can find on the internet). Why this variation of γ? Is it because different experiments focus on different energy levels of muons?

γ is a function of the velocity of the muon in question. The greater the speed, the greater the value of γ. I won't repeat the formula that gives γ in terms of velocity because I'm sure you've taken the trouble to look it up and understand what it means.
 
arindamsinha said:
One overall question - how valid are the cosmic muon experiments as a proof of relativity theory (i.e. is it among the top proofs, or low down in the order)? I am not questioning the fact whether muon lifetime does get extended (which I accept), only how valid the "exact mathematical application" of SR formula is given what seems to be somewhat fuzzy assumptions?
I would put them low down on the list for exactly the reasons you mention. They are produced by high energy particles interacting with the upper atmosphere. The high energy particles have a wide spread in energies, and the atmosphere particles have a wide spread in altitude, so you do get quite a bit of variation in starting altitude and speed for the muons. However, the number of these muons is also incredibly high, and the distribution is well studied, so you can do good statistics and get accurate results for the population.

However, I would consider lab measurements to be much more reliable. In particular, the Bailey muon experiments listed in section 5 here.

http://www.edu-observatory.org/physics-faq/Relativity/SR/experiments.html
 
The history is similar to that of the 1938 Ives-Stilwell experiment with Doppler shifts, which was originally not very high in precision but was later made into one of the most high-precision tests of SR.
 
Thanks everyone for responses.

I am trying to understand if the assumption of 15 km altitude (for creation of almost all cosmic muons) is in any way experimentally verified.

I am giving below my thoughts on another possibility. Say that the muons are not all created at around 15 km altitude, but perhaps at all altitudes. Naturally, the lower the altitude, lesser the number of cosmic protons reaching there, and lesser the number of muons produced at that altitude. This could also account for the observed muon count ratio between sea level and higher altitudes, even with γ being a lot less that 5, or even being equal to 1. Is this line of reasoning incorrect?

So, my question is - γ having to be about 5 based on SR formula and observed average muon velocity - was the 15 km assumption retrofitted into the theory to square with the fact of muon counts?
 
arindamsinha said:
Thanks everyone for responses.

I am trying to understand if the assumption of 15 km altitude (for creation of almost all cosmic muons) is in any way experimentally verified.

I am giving below my thoughts on another possibility. Say that the muons are not all created at around 15 km altitude, but perhaps at all altitudes. Naturally, the lower the altitude, lesser the number of cosmic protons reaching there, and lesser the number of muons produced at that altitude. This could also account for the observed muon count ratio between sea level and higher altitudes, even with γ being a lot less that 5, or even being equal to 1. Is this line of reasoning incorrect?

So, my question is - γ having to be about 5 based on SR formula and observed average muon velocity - was the 15 km assumption retrofitted into the theory to square with the fact of muon counts?

Sounds like you need to look up the original reference, which is Bruno Rossi and David B. Hall, Phys Rev 59 (1941) 223. I believe they did experiments both in New England and in Colorado. Other people have studied this kind of thing using weather balloons. Since we have access to a lot of different altitudes, it seems like it would be straightforward to verify that the muons are not just getting produced at some very low altitude.
 
Thanks bcrowell. I am aware of the original reference you have suggested, but will look into it in some detail based on your inputs.

Are there any other reliable references you can suggest in cosmic muon experiments of this type? There are many on the Internet, but I am not sure which ones are really credible.
 
Note that cosmic rays aren't the only source of muons, just the first one historically. When we study muons nowadays, we produce them at particle accelerators. IIRC Fermilab has or had a beamline which produced beams of muons. The location of the production target is well-defined, and the momentum (and therefore the velocity) can be measured in a magnetic field before the muons decay.
 
arindamsinha said:
Are there any other reliable references you can suggest in cosmic muon experiments of this type? There are many on the Internet, but I am not sure which ones are really credible.

I would go to a university library and find a book on cosmic ray physics, which is a big field.

Another possibility would be to find later papers that cite Rossi and Hall. I think you can do this, for example, on arxiv.org for papers that are on arxiv.

When you talk about "references" that are "on the internet," do you mean peer-reviewed papers, or just people's web pages?
 
  • #10
@jtbell - absolutely. I have no doubts about the controlled muon experiments in labs. I am trying to understand only the reliability of cosmic muon experiments.

@bcrowell - thanks. That is exactly what I was thinking of doing.

The references I am talking about are in 3 categories - (a) papers on arxiv or elsewhere which seem to be properly written with references etc., though sometimes not easy to differentiate whether those are opinions of person(s) or whether acknowledged by the broad scientific community, (b) papers based on actual meticulous experiments, but not done by professional scientists (e.g. undergraduate experiments), (c) people's web pages.

Mostly I tend to ignore the third category. In the first two I am unable to always tell whether I can take the observations and conclusions as reliable or not (except for the few very well known papers, of course).
 

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