Is God Truly Free to Choose His Own Nature?

[Preator Fenix]

Is God free to do as he please's?

If so what certaintly do we have that he ultimatly is not evil, or weaher he has the capacity to be or not be evil?

 

[dekoi]

God has "free will". Although that seems too small of a term to define a quality of such a Divine power.

God does not need free will. Since the choices he has, "good" or "evil" do not apply to him. Because God is believed to be good by theists, he would not need the second choice of "evil".
--
"If so what certaintly do we have that he ultimatly is not evil, or weaher he has the capacity to be or not be evil?"

There is little certainty in theism, imho. Most of theism is a mistery.

 

[Preator Fenix]

If he CANNOT choose evil, then he is not able to choose freely and therefore I deduce that he has no freewill.

And if he indeed commited an "evil" how would we know he did?

In essance then 'good' and 'bad' to not apply to god.
Therefore one can infer that god has no morality?

 

[JasonRox]

Einstein once asked "How much choice did God have in creating the universe?"

Think about it.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Is God free to do as he please's?

If so what certaintly do we have that he ultimatly is not evil, or weaher he has the capacity to be or not be evil?

This is part of what is known as the Euthyphro dichotomy, from Plato's dialogues. Either God (or the gods) has free will or not. If he has free will, then his judgements might have been different, and we are not bound to obey a contingent directive. But if he has not got free will he is less than a god, and we do not have to obey such a finite being.

 

[Preator Fenix]

Not a very positive procpect. I was actually hoping someone could provide a better defense for god.

I at times wish logic could be just a little more forgiving of our human nature.

It is a good thing that me a Plato came to the same conclusion, even if thousands of years apart and in ignorance of each other. Somethings I guess never change.

 

[Prometheus]

God has "free will".

Please explain how you know this to be true.

God does not need free will.

Why would god have something the she does not need?

Since the choices he has, "good" or "evil" do not apply to him.

How do you know that she has only these two choices?

Because God is believed to be good by theists, he would not need the second choice of "evil".

Are you saying that god cannot do evil? If true, then she does not have free will?

There is little certainty in theism, imho. Most of theism is a mistery.

I would agree with this. However, you certainly seem sure of the points that you made here, although I do not know on what basis you could have made them.

 

[phoenixthoth]

I came across this interesting paradox. If a being is omniscient, then it has no free will for if a being knows what it's going to do in five minutes then it can't change what it will do. Ignorance is free will?

Anyways, what "basis" would suffice? Empericism, some abstract epistemology, intuition backed by circumstantial evidence, a math equation?

You're never going to prove or disprove that God
a. exists and
b. that it has free will
unless you arbitrarily select the criteria for proof, meet them, and consider yourself done with the issue.

Don't forget that the other form of evidence is self-evidence but keep in mind that not everything that is self-evident is necessarily obvious.

 

[Prometheus]

If a being is omniscient, then it has no free will for if a being knows what it's going to do in five minutes then it can't change what it will do.

Interesting idea.

 

[4newton]

Of course God must have free will. If God created all things then every thing that he created must have some attribute of his. Man has free will therefore one of God’s attribute must be that of free will.

Can God turn his free will on himself? No. God must be self-consistent. Being a being of eternity if he had any inconsistency he never would be. Inconsistency is self-destructive.

Evil is a direction away from the consistency of God. That is why every evil must have a counter balance to keep all things consistent. God does not punish evil it is automatic because it is against the nature of God and all creation.

 

[Mazuz]

Man has free will therefore one of God’s attribute must be that of free will.

I would say Man does not have free will. Rather that freewill is an illusion. We have "will" but it is not free. All of our decisions are bound by our environment, as is everything that we are. "free" would be to imply that there are no conditions on our actions. You can't deny our relationship to the external world. Try to explain choice free of boundaries, its impossible. The decisions we make are based on what we know, what we've experienced, what we remember what our immediate environment is.. where does this idea of "free" come in?

 

[hypnagogue]

We must agree on what we mean by 'God' and 'free will' before we can continue. It is plain to see that the nuances of what we mean by these terms will shape the form of prospective arguments, and it is also plain to see that different people are using the terms differently.

Preator Fenix, since you started this thread, do you care to elaborate on what you mean by 'God' and 'free will'? At the least, you should provide the essential properties that something must possesses in order for it to be called 'God,' and the essential conditions under which we can call a given act an act of 'free will.'

edit: also, please specify what you mean by 'good' and 'evil' such that we can agree upon a common set of criteria by which to distinguish the two.

 

[wuliheron]

If you are a pantheist, God may be the only entity with free will. Those pantheists that believe in a God, believe God is the universe en toto, that is, everything that exists combined equals God. Hence, God has free will if for no other reason than because by definition there is nothing to constrain God. Also, it is an oxymoron then to talk of God creating the universe because God is the universe.

When you move beyond pantheism into transendent beliefs, anything goes.

 

[hypnagogue]

If you are a pantheist, God may be the only entity with free will. Those pantheists that believe in a God, believe God is the universe en toto, that is, everything that exists combined equals God. Hence, God has free will if for no other reason than because by definition there is nothing to constrain God.

Sure there is something to constrain such a pantheistic God, and this is just its internal constitution itself. Its causal powers must be limited by the ways in which the causal powers of everything that exists can be combined to form this entity. The only way such a God would be free of constraint would be if all the parts of existence somehow could combine in such a way as to create some sort of top-down mechanism that could override any and all properties and constraints of any and all of its constituent parts. While such a scenario might be possible in principle, it certainly does not immediately follow from the definition you have provided.

 

[Preator Fenix]

God = As defined by Judo-Christain/Muslim Culture and complementary religous and quasi-religous texts. Based on my observations this can be summrized into a Father figure like humanistic emotional seeming entity with no observable physical compentes with the capacity to completely alter entire local and non-local enviroments seeming driving enegry from an unknown source and at times in a way that goes against agreed scientific data, all of course under the assumption that all "god" does is "good" but with no sure mechanism of verifying.

Free will= a. avalibilty of a choice c. statiscal possiblity that a certain choice may or may not be taken in a non determinable way. As an analogy compare to wave theory of quantum mechanics; under observation particules follow discreet and spefic paths with no possiblity of choice under their power to change/ without observation there exist PROBALITIES of differnt paths.

Good/Bad = The laymens understanding of common good and bad. Vanacular definetion of good and bad.


---I tend towards pantheism

 

[fourier jr]

I haven't read all the replies here, but this topic reminds me of something Stephen Hawking asked: "Did God have a choice when he created the universe?"
I asked that to a philosopher of science @ my school who asked me what do people expect to get from theoretical physics? Is theoretical physics supposed to find out the 'truth' about the real world, or explan other, theological, things?

 

[hypnagogue]

Free will= a. avalibilty of a choice c. statiscal possiblity that a certain choice may or may not be taken in a non determinable way. As an analogy compare to wave theory of quantum mechanics; under observation particules follow discreet and spefic paths with no possiblity of choice under their power to change/ without observation there exist PROBALITIES of differnt paths.

I'm still not sure exactly how you mean this term. Do you mean that if X has free will, then X's choice is not wholly determined by the environment? Or do you mean that if X has free will, then X's choice is not wholly determined by anything (thus having some degree of freedom that is completely free of all causal constraint)? Or do you mean something else?

Good/Bad = The laymens understanding of common good and bad. Vanacular definetion of good and bad.

I'm not sure this is enough to get everyone on the same page. Would the layman say it is good to kill one person in order to save the life of two others? Are you working with a utilitarian concept of good and bad here, or a deontological one, or what?

 

[Preator Fenix]

Free Will=X's choice may or may not be determined to any degree by the enviorment. It is considered "free" as long as it is in the of real possiblity, not weather it is wholly indepandant of the enviroment.

Good/Bad= As esthablised by modern legal system/thinking and current opinion. The United States legal definitions can be used as a refrance.

 

[dekoi]

Why would god have something the she does not need?

Because humans need/have it. Why assume that what humans need/have, God also needs or has?

How do you know that she has only these two choices.

I suppose we don't. We do however, know there is a good -- and therefore, there must be a bad. However, this might not apply in the metaphysical world.

Are you saying that god cannot do evil? If true, then she does not have free will?

God can be evil, although it is not in his nature.

 

[Preator Fenix]

Well if he CAN be evil, why am I trusting him with my eteranl soul?

If he is just a fallible as anyone of use, it falls ON HIM to prove to us beyound any doubt that his intentions are good, not the other way around.

So far he has been very lazy in convincing anyone that he exits, let alone trust him.

 

[Genius of Physics]

God is an unexplanable energy who is powerful then everything he is so old as the biggest number which is neverending he dant think like us but he is good because everyone likes love more then hate

 

[Genius of Physics]

God is an unexplanable energy who is powerful then everything he is so old as the biggest number which is neverending he dant think like us but he is good because everyone likes love more then hate
oF COURSE HE AHS A FREE WILL HE IS HIS OWN BOSS HE CAN BREAK ALL THE LAWS OF PHYSICS IF HE WANTED TO.

 

[chroot]

Genius,

Do you know what a "proof by assertion" is?

- Warren

 

[Genius of Physics]

Hmm... i don't know

 

[chroot]

Genius,

An argument is a statement, like "the sky is blue" or "God is unexplainable energy." An argument by assertion is an argument made without any logical underpinnings or observable evidence. The statement "my bedroom is full of little pink elephants" is an argument by assertion.

Such arguments have no real meaning. Sure, you can state something like "God is unexplainable energy," but it means nothing. It can't be refuted. It can't even be discussed, because it is not well-defined. It's just a vacuous statement.

You would do well to avoid making such statements.

- Warren

 

[Genius of Physics]

sorry but i can't so well explained that in english

 

[chroot]

I'm not asking you to speak better English. I can read your English just fine, and I'm sure it's better than my Danish!

I'm just trying to get you to see that statements like "God is older than the biggest number" are just not useful in a debate. You might believe that statement on faith, but you cannot assume the faith of your audience.

- Warren

 

[Genius of Physics]

ok i can't win this battle against evolution or creation because all the time are coming thigs which are supporting evolution. I can't because it is not giving any meaning for. me.
If there is no god then there is a creator of the universe. but you will maked even more complicated if there are fx. two creators because someone mus have created them so I am saying that there is only One.

about this gay disease damn it the bonbo apes they are having sex also with there own sex. Its even more disguisting, they are doing this with thir own sex because to make a better social conection. everytime i remember that pic than i gettin worse ****
i never thought that the animals are also homosex .

 

[saviourmachine]

Will has to do with wanting something, with desire to do something IMHO.

Don't you guys get tired about all these 'persons' wanting something from you? I do. Even if it's a god, a bonobo-creator (and observer ).

 

[Burnsys]

I haven't read all the replies here, but this topic reminds me of something Stephen Hawking asked: "Did God have a choice when he created the universe?"
I asked that to a philosopher of science @ my school who asked me what do people expect to get from theoretical physics? Is theoretical physics supposed to find out the 'truth' about the real world, or explan other, theological, things?

Exactly.. if god wanted a universe with inteligent life in it,, he could never create one with another gravity constant for example couse no planet would ever form.. or another electromagnetic coupling constant, couse no atom would form... So even GOD (If he exist) had to follow some kind of rules to create life..

 

[babsyco]

I must say I'm agnostic, I just stumbled into this thread out of the 'dark woods', but there are a few things I think that have been neglected in this discussion. I think God can't choose evil because I think evil can be defined as what God doesn't favour, or 'choose'. Evil is what is against Gods wishes. Does this mean that God has no Free Will? I don't think so, you can't choose what you don't choose. I agree with your point on Pantheism, Hypnagogue: if god is merely everything that exists combined, and this entity has free will with no constraint, then A) what the are all the physicists doing trying to find a fundamental mathematical equation for the workings of the universe if it can alter itself at will, and B) why has their research yielded such consistent and experimentally sound results?

Of course it could be argued that there is an element of uncertainty to the universe (enter uncertainty principle) and this is an opening for the will of god to alter the consititution, and in that sense Einstein's assertion that 'God does not play dice with the universe' could have been retorted with 'he doesn't have to, he controls the dice', but the reason that physics theories such as Relativity have yeided such impressive results is because the randomness is so small scale and so rare that it can be done away with in explaining everyday physical events. Does God have the power to change the universe but only does so once in a blue moon, and only one elementary particle at a time? If so, than God must be more than just the sum of the universe (otherwise there wouldn't be this veil that stops us seeing the cause of these random events, the universe would be choosing them, they would not be random) or if God is merely the combined total of all things, he is constrained because it can still be up to chance.

Thanks, Babsyco.

 

[babsyco]

Forgot to mention, that is of course assuming that the Uncertainty principle is correct, which maybe I shouldn't.

Thanks, Babsyco.

 

[fizzzzzzzzzzzy]

God cannot be evil as it defies logic. Our sense of good and evil is tyied into our idea of God. God by definition must be good because if he was even slitly evil then we would all be aware of his existence. And we wouldn't have free will

God has freewill because if God didnt have free will, He would not be God

God has left his finger prints all over the universe. There is scientific evidence pointing torward God.

 

[harvey1]

Is God free to do as he please's?

If so what certaintly do we have that he ultimatly is not evil, or weaher he has the capacity to be or not be evil?

Free will is the ability to decide freely, without captivity to environment, education, genetics, etc. In that sense, God has free will. There is no environment, education, genetics, etc, that determine God's mind.

On the other hand, intelligence and consciousness are attributes of God, and I cannot conceive of God as 'free' to not be intelligent, or cease from being conscious, etc.

So, I think on the matter of free will, God is free to be God, but not free to be anything other than God.