Is gravitation faster than light?

CarstenDierks
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As far as I read, gravitation or better: gravitational waves expand with c.

However, particles like photons which are moving along with c are subject to the curvature of space. Regarding a black hole, light cannot escape with c but gravitation can.

Is gravitation thus faster than c?

Carsten
 
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CarstenDierks said:
As far as I read, gravitation or better: gravitational waves expand with c.

However, particels like photons which are moving along with c are subject to the curvature of space. Regarding a black hole, light cannot escape with c but gravitation can.

Is gravitation thus faster than c?

Carsten


The short answer is:NO.What do you mean,"gravitation can (escape a black hole)"...?Gravitation IS a black hole (too)...A singularity in the gravitational field,that is...If u want to,a particular solution to the Einstein equations...

Daniel.
 
The gravitational field outside the black hole is already there; it doesn't need to "escape".

Of course, anything that happens inside the black hole cannot propagate to the outside... so any gravitational waves that are inside the hole never make it out.

The same, incidentally, is true of the electromagnetic field of the hole.
 
Hasn't science, so far, proven it be impossible to move faster than c?

------ Life is a Problem... SOLVE IT!
 
Hi Problem+Solve,

Problem+Solve=Reason said:
Hasn't science, so far, proven it be impossible to move faster than c?
Not quite. Theoretical physics do not rule out speeds faster than c (see also: Dirac theory). Mass cannot move as fast or faster than c.

Particles faster than c are called tachyons. However, no one has found tachyons so far.

Hurkyl said:
Of course, anything that happens inside the black hole cannot propagate to the outside... so any gravitational waves that are inside the hole never make it out.
Hm, Hurkyl, is it really true that gravitational waves cannot leave a black hole?

Changes in a gravitational field are supposed to be "communicated" by gravitational waves. If gravitational waves (which have not been detected so far) were not able to leave a black hole, nothing outside a black hole would notice changes in the gravitation of the black hole.

Since black holes of different masses are observable, are we not able to conduct that they can send out gravitational waves with this information?

Otherwise, black holes should all show the same mass (= gravitation): the mass which is necessary to initially form a black hole. Afterwards, information on the increase of its mass would not be able to be "communicated" outside the black hole...

Moreover, would there be only a 0-or-1 approach to the escape of gravitational waves from a black hole? A gradual influence on the gravitational waves seems more likely, since gravitational fields and the curvature of space also gradually influence c.

So far I read that the existing theories of gravitation (including SRT, GRT) and EM show explanatory gaps in situations of singularity (big bang, black holes). Is this one of the gaps or which are they?

Carsten
 
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Alright, thank you... Do you know a good referece page on the Dirac Theory? I understand the basics of it, but want to know more. Again, thankyou...

---- Life is a Problem... SOLVE IT!
 
Problem+Solve=Reason said:
Alright, thank you... Do you know a good referece page on the Dirac Theory?

Well, I do not know the profound reference pages but here are some links:

A simple introduction:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Tachyon

A simple introduction into the equation:
http://www.iscmns.org/iccf11/ppt/FilippovDtachyon.pdf

Not bad at all:
http://www.cbloom.com/physics/2d_dirac.html

More detailed, with coupling of branes:
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1126-6708/2001/02/002
http://citebase.eprints.org/cgi-bin/citations?id=oai:arXiv.org:hep-th/0003122

Have fun reading!

Carsten
 
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Hm, Hurkyl, is it really true that gravitational waves cannot leave a black hole?

In GR, I'm quite sure -- otherwise we'd be able to get information from inside the black hole.

The resolution is this: the increase of mass doesn't occur inside the hole -- it occurs on its boundary as massive objects fall from the outside to the inside.
 
Hurkyl said:
The resolution is this: the increase of mass doesn't occur inside the hole -- it occurs on its boundary as massive objects fall from the outside to the inside.
That is a good point!

The boundary must be the Schwarzschild radius, right?
 
  • #10
The boundary is the event horizon. It doesn't have to be spherical... (but maybe it quickly changes into a spherical shape? I don't recall for sure)
 
  • #11
As far as I know the Schwarzschild radius is the event horizon since the escape speed at this point becomes c.
 
  • #12
Something I realized a day or two back is that in the sum-over-histories version of quantum theory, if a particle is near a black hole then some of the paths being summed up must cross over the event horizon and come back out again! :biggrin:

These are obviously faster-than-light histories which form part of the sum-over-histories that result in the light-speed-or-less particles that make up the universe.

I knew there were faster-than-light histories but this crossing over the event horizon was just an amusing thing I realized. Thought I'd mention it. :smile:
 
  • #13
Thanks, Caribou, that is another interesting point. Maybe the particle will not be able to escape the black hole once it has passed the Schwarzschild radius - even if its probability inside the radius was just a fraction above zero. If it interacts with the black hole inside the radius its probability becoms 100% (like interaction with a measuring device).


But still my initial question remains. Maybe I should state it differently:

In the theory of gravitational waves: Are these waves influenced by relativity and the curvature of space (as photons and other particles are) or not?

If yes, I would consider it paradox because gravitation would influence itself.

If no, I would consider time dilation, length contraction and the like to behave differently with gravitational waves as they behave with other particles like photons. (But this would also imply that c is not the proper speed for gravitational waves.)

Does anybody know the answer?

Carsten
 
  • #14
I just looked up Jim Hartle's book on gravity and noticed something about a definition.

Gravitational waves are "ripples in spacetime curvature" caused by "any mass in nonspherical, nonlinear motion". But a mass in spherical and/or linear motion must still affect other masses.

So I assume this means gravitational waves and gravitons are different things, with the former emitted in many situations and being made up of the latter.

I think gravitational waves from a black hole are like ripples when a stone is moved back and forth in water. The stone doesn't really change in any significant way.

Gravitons would be smeared out quantum particles with wave properties that can make up these ripples when they occur. So a graviton is a gravitational wave in a different sense.

My guess is that with gravitons we'd be talking about them in smeared out orbits outside and inside the black hole's horizon with them being in increasing and increasing numbers closer to the center. And this is where the gravity comes from, with these orbiting gravitons affecting the paths of other gravitons and anything else.

A black hole is a big cloud of gravitions going out from the singularity to the event horizon and beyond? And something which disturbs a black hole causes a whole lot of gravitons to be knocked out of orbit and form a gravitational wave?

I'm speculating well beyond my own level of knowledge now. :bugeye: :biggrin:
 
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  • #15
If you accept a graviton theory of gravity, a gravity wave would be a coherent stream of gravitons, i.e. their wave functions would be in macroscopic synch.
 
  • #16
gravity is curvature

CarstenDierks said:
As far as I read, gravitation or better: gravitational waves expand with c.

However, particles like photons which are moving along with c are subject to the curvature of space. Regarding a black hole, light cannot escape with c but gravitation can.

Is gravitation thus faster than c?

Carsten

According to the GRT, curvature is gravity and vice versa.
Gravitational waves should not be imagined like electro magnetic waves, but rather as curvature ripples which move across the 4 dimensional space.

As such, gravity does not escape from a black hole. It is created by the black hole, in this sense that the black hole curves the space around it.

Greetz,
Leo
 
  • #17
Thank you caribou, selfAdjoint and Leo!

But I believe I still do not have an answer to my question. I am sorry for bugging you, but maybe I have missed the clue.

Let me put the question differently:

If we think of gravitons instead of gravitational waves, do they move with the speed of c?

And are they influenced by relativity as well as the curvature of space?

Example: Are gravitons from a mass m deflected if they pass nearby the space curvature of another mass M?

Carsten
 
  • #18
As far as I remember, fields are considered to be established when you do a problem. They travel at the speed of light, so if you don't have mass or charge in the infinite, then the fields in the infinite are zero always.
 
  • #19
Leo said it well,
Leo said:
As such, gravity does not escape from a black hole. It is created by the black hole, in this sense that the black hole curves the space around it.
Light cannot escape a black hole because the force of gravity i.e gravitons, are forcing it them back. Gravity is the black hole (though the singularity is mass).

When we say gravity waves travel at c, a good example of this is such: If the sun were to disapear right now, it would take ~8mins for Earth's orbit to be affected (aswell for us to see it). So picture a wave through 4 dimensional spacetime traveling at c. So if a black hole was to disapear, let's say a black hole powering a galaxie, the gravitons would travel at c, so each star would lose its orbit at different moments.
 
  • #20
Hi DB,

that is correct. By theory, the observer on such a star (or an observer orbiting it) should notice ("watch") the black hole vanish at the same time his star loses the orbit around it.

Leo32 said:
As such, gravity does not escape from a black hole. It is created by the black hole, in this sense that the black hole curves the space around it.
Also correct. But are gravitons or gravitational waves the same as curvature of space? The curvature itself is static in the sense of resting in space. The wave (or gravitons) propagate with a speed (c?). So it must be two different effects even if they have the same origin.

But this would imply, that

a) gravitons are either able to propagate at a higher escape speed from the black hole than photons. (However it would mean our observer´s star would lose orbit before the observer notices the black hole vanish.)

or

b) gravitons propagate at c but we do not know how they escape a black hole. (And does the relativity of c apply to gravitons as well: speed, time, length contraction?)


I do not want to be impolite. My insisting on this point might seem like it but it is truly not and I sure do not want it to look like it. I am just a little curious.


Hurkyl said:
Of course, anything that happens inside the black hole cannot propagate to the outside... so any gravitational waves that are inside the hole never make it out.
Hurkyl, is this an accepted theory or rather a personal assumption?

If gravitons or gravitational waves occur from the boundary of a black hole (Schwarzschild radius), why wouldn´t photons do the same? But wouldn´t we see a white hole instead of a black one?


Your curious

Carsten
 
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  • #21
CarstenDierks said:
Hurkyl, is this an accepted theory or rather a personal assumption?

If gravitons or gravitational waves occur from the boundary of a black hole (Schwarzschild radius), why wouldn´t photons do the same? But wouldn´t we see a white hole instead of a black one?


Your curious

Carsten

Are you purposing that photons would originate from the boundary of the black hole, and then be sucked into the middle therefor making the black hole bright? Plus, I am wondering if the Schwarzschild Radius is the same thing as an event horizon. I am currently reading up on Schwarzschild Radius and should know more soon...
Also, why would gravitons have to escape the black hole when EVERTHING is being sucked into it. Wouldn't the photons and gravitons be travaling "side by side" at the same rate of speed, going towards the black hole. I'm not sure where I am going with that one but hopefully ill find something interesting when I get where I am going.

---- Life is a Problem... SOLVE IT!
 
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  • #22
Problem+Solve=Reason said:
Are you purposing that photons would originate from the boundary of the black hole, and then be sucked into the middle therefor making the black hole bright?
Hi Problem+Solve,
No, I was referring to an earlier post by Hurkyl (#8). His suggestion was that gravitons might originate from the boundaries to be able to escape the black hole.

So my reasoning was: Why should the same not apply for photons?

Or the other way around: Black holes are black because they do not emit photons at their boundary. So why should they emit gravitons at that point when capturing additonal mass without emitting photons at the same time?

Carsten
 
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  • #23
CarstenDierks said:
But are gravitons or gravitational waves the same as curvature of space?

A gravitational wave is packets of gravitons, so we consider gravitational waves to be made up of gravitons. When a star is born, it's mass and density will curve space, by doing so it automatically sends gravitational waves traveling at c. Like throwing a rock in a pond, the second the rock hits the water it "curves' the body of water, with ripples traveling at a certain speed.
CarstenDierks said:
But this would imply, that

a) gravitons are either able to propagate at a higher escape speed from the black hole than photons. (However it would mean our observer´s star would lose orbit before the observer notices the black hole vanish.)

or

b) gravitons propagate at c but we do not know how they escape a black hole. (And does the relativity of c apply to gravitons as well: speed, time, length contraction?)

Remeber that a graviton is a very hypothetical particle, it is used mainly in string theory, helping to intertwine both quantum mechanics and relativity.
Gravitons have rest mass zero just as photons, so we now know that they will travel at c and can have similar properties.So don't get confused that gravitons are escaping a black hole, they don't need to, they are lost in space. What I mean is, that when a black hole is created it sends gravitational waves (gravitons) outward, through space, "forever". So it doesn't need to escape a black hole, the creation of a black hole itself sends them outward. You might ask then what is keeping photons from escaping if gravitons are gone. Spacetime curvature.

I've explained this in a different thread
DB said:
A common anology of spacetime fabric is "space foam" (like those beds where you can leave a hand print) a rubberish fabric. If you were to place a bowling ball in the center of space foam is would sink, curving the fabric along it's circumference. Now if you took a ball with exactly the same mass but with 1/10th the circumference and radius it will sink to the same depth that the bowling ball did and curve the space foam around its circumference. But since the circumference is much smaller, it would lead to a greater curvature of space foam. It would look like a hole. I think you can picture it. So knowing this situation, general relativity tells us that: the greater the curvature of spacetime, the strong the gravitational force. So if we took a marble and placed it on the space foam for both situations (very important that we don't place it with a force or initial velocity because it would fall into "orbit" for a bit) Here's what would happen:

The bowling ball: the marble would roll towards the center of the bowling ball at a moderate accelerated speed.

The denser bowling ball of same mass: the marble would actually roll slower towards the "event horizon" of the hole, though once it passed it, it would fall towards the ball at much faster accelerated speed than our other situation.

Edit: I realize now surface area might be better to say than circumference.
I found this too: http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/embed.diag2.jpg
So mathematically Einstein proved (in short) that a photon in a black hole cannot escape because the hole is to deep. Though spacetime curvature doesn't exist as an example of a space fabric situation, it is just a way we use to see what going on, math is the true way of understanding gravity.


If gravitons or gravitational waves occur from the boundary of a black hole (Schwarzschild radius), why wouldn´t photons do the same? But wouldn´t we see a white hole instead of a black one?
A bondary of a black hole is the event horizon. Any photon (anything) passed the event horizon can shine to it's hearts content. Pass the event horizon black holes aren't so bad, they power our galaxies, they are key to life. Also whites holes have not been proven to exist, and are very complicated phenomena, breaking laws of thermodynamics.

If you have anymore questions or I didn't cover what you want to know just ask. :biggrin:
 
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  • #24
Problem+Solve=Reason said:
Plus, I am wondering if the Schwarzschild Radius is the same thing as an event horizon. I am currently reading up on Schwarzschild Radius and should know more soon...

Picture a cone with the base upward. The tip of the cone is the singularity, the circumference of the circular base is the event horizon, the radius of that base is simply the schwarzschild radius. :wink:
 
  • #25
No, I was referring to an earlier post by Hurkyl (#8). His suggestion was that gravitons might originate from the boundaries to be able to escape the black hole.

I said nothing about gravitons! Nor about photons! GR is a classical theory, which appears to be inconsistent with current methods of quantization. Similarly, the EM field that one could describe in GR is a classical field, not a quantum field. AFAIK, any talk about photons in GR is really speculative -- "Once we get these things united, things probably should behave like this..."


Or the other way around: Black holes are black because they do not emit photons at their boundary.

No, they're called black because light cannot escape from the inside.
 
  • #26
selfAdjoint said:
If you accept a graviton theory of gravity, a gravity wave would be a coherent stream of gravitons, i.e. their wave functions would be in macroscopic synch.
Of course we cannot say for sure if graviton particles exist. For string theory and quantum mechanics it would be very important, as I understand.

But can you (or anybody else) tell me, whether in theory gravitational waves (= gravitons) and the curvature of space (= gravitation, gravitational force) are equal?

Carsten
 
  • #27
Hi DB,

thanks for the substantial explanations. That helps already to increase my understanding.

DB said:
If you have anymore questions or I didn't cover what you want to know just ask.
I would like to, if I may.

I am still a little confused when relating all facts.

For me it is difficult to understand why gravitational waves (gravitons) should propagate through spacetime with c and, thus, cause space curvature (if I have understood that correctly).

Difficult because of the following:

(1) If gravitons (gravitational waves) are not at rest in a gravitational field, this would imply to me that mass needs to constantly emit gravitational waves (gravitons) to "replace" those which are "gone".

(2) If mass curves spacetime: Is the curvature once "engraved" in spacetime and "rests" there until a new gravitational wave "updates the information"?

Or:
(3) Is the curvature of spacetime just "newly" evoked by every ripple of a gravitational wave passing by?

(4) Do gravitational waves interfere with each other? Probably yes because gravitational forces and the curvature of space of two objects do add up.

Arising questions:

(5) Is it allowed to conclude out of (4) and (1) that the path of gravitons is not straight but also influenced by the curvature of spacetime (of other objects)? Meaning: Gravitons (gravitational waves) have to travel along our (curved) cosmos as it exists?

(6) Out of (4): What about gravitational forces of 2 objects of identical mass on a 3rd object right in-between the two? Is the gravitational force for the 3rd object zero? But is spacetime not curved at that point due to the sum of the curvature of the first two objects?

(7) Out of (6): So are gravitons (gravitational waves) and the curvature of spacetime really equal?

(8) Out of (2): Is this true for black holes? Do they curve spacetime and the curvature "rests" there because the gravitons (gravitational waves) cannot escape from inside of the black hole? Is the gravitational field of black holes never "updated" by gravitons (gravitational waves)?

(9) Out of (1), (3), (4), (7) and (8): How can black holes capture gravitons (gravitational waves) inside the Schwarzschild radius and, at the same time, emit gravitons (gravitational waves) to curve space and exert gravitational force?

(10) Out of (9): How does quantum and/or string theory explain the speed and escape speed of gravitons (gravitational waves)?


I hope I was able to put everything into the context as it currently occurs to me - and to show where my gaps in understand (relating) it are situated.

Carsten
 
  • #28
Gravitons

Vey interesting but arent you forgetting that the graviton has never been detected so all of this is just conjecture, personally I think gravity has no force carrier and we have allready unified all the forces; gravity is an effect of mass, there is no mediator, thus it can escape a black hole, as we know even photons probably have mass, all be it extremely small, so gravitons ought not to be able to escape from a black hole either.

Thus my point mass is caused by the atoms themselves not by any mediating force carrier.
 
  • #29
Louis Cypher said:
Thus my point mass is caused by the atoms themselves not by any mediating force carrier.
Hm. How should one mass particle get the information where the second mass particle is located at? And how is the (gravitational) force enacted which attracts both particles?

Since a theory on gravitational waves and gravitons does exist, it should also provide answers to the questions I am still having. That is what I am looking for.

Carsten
 
  • #30
I'm not an expert, but I'll try to anwser your questions with my best knowledge of general relativity. I hope you like reading...

CarstenDierks said:
For me it is difficult to understand why gravitational waves (gravitons) should propagate through spacetime with c and, thus, cause space curvature (if I have understood that correctly).

Yup your're gettin it. I guess you could say that gravitational waves cause space curvature, though you could say vice versa, and as well that gravitational waves are space curvature. They propagate at c because they have rest mass zero as does a photon.

CarstenDierks said:
Difficult because of the following:

(1) If gravitons (gravitational waves) are not at rest in a gravitational field, this would imply to me that mass needs to constantly emit gravitational waves (gravitons) to "replace" those which are "gone".

Not exactly so. First let's consider gravitational waves as a force through spacetime. Let's almost forget about graviton particles for they are very hypothetical and are just what make up the gravitational wave. So we don't say gravitation is emited, it's exerted. We know that when space is curved by mass, it will "deforme" all of space, most anologically spacetime fabric.
Like the rock in the pond, when we throw the rock in, ripples will not be continuesly exerted forever, but the ripples that were exerted along the body of water will continue traveling as so until they barely have a wavelenght (or are slowed or stopped by more ripples of another force). Once the rock has hit bottom, it's deformation towards the body of water is finished. Now the water will adapt to have this new rock in its pond. Translation::-p the second a star is formed in space it deformes (curves) spacetime fabric, and by doing so it effects spacetime by sending gravitational waves along space forever. Once the star is formed and balanced in space, it's job is done, and space has adapted to the deformation of this new star. So the star is the rock, the gravitational waves are the ripples and spacetime fabric is the water. So gravitational waves are not constantly emited, it happens once and travels as a wave at the speed of light. Those which are "gone" have already done their job of curving space. They will keeping doing their job forever, but always at further and futher parts of the cosmos. It is now space curvature (created by the wave) to do it's job of creating and exerting gravity. (Think of gravitational waves through the water anology, but don't think of it as what gravity is, because you can't sink to the bottom of spacetime. The bowling ball anology is good for gravity.)

CarstenDierks said:
(2) If mass curves spacetime: Is the curvature once "engraved" in spacetime and "rests" there until a new gravitational wave "updates the information"?

Yes. Engraved is a great word. But the altering of a star's gravitational field is usually very minimal because stars are far away from each other, so there is minimal effect. But it happens and I will give an example soon.

CarstenDierks said:
Or:
(3) Is the curvature of spacetime just "newly" evoked by every ripple of a gravitational wave passing by?

Ill say no, but I don't exactly understand the question. Once a gravitational wave has passed a certain spot, that spot is officially considered effected by the mass that sent the wave off. The only way that the certain spot can be effected again by the same mass is if the mass or density were to change (of the mass) or if the mass would disapear, "taking it's wave back". What I mean by this is that if the object were to disapear it would send of a wave that would un-deforme space.
And remember that all this doesn't happen at once, the waves have a finite speed "c", and each spot is affected at different times.

CarstenDierks said:
(4) Do gravitational waves interfere with each other? Probably yes because gravitational forces and the curvature of space of two objects do add up.

Right. Right. Here's what I said I would get to. In our solar system, planet's orbits are elliptical, they are eccentric. There are debatable reasons for why, some say it's because planets don't orbit the sun, they orbit the common center of mass between the sun and that planet, some say that other gravitational force of other planets effect orbits, mostly Jupiter. And Jupiter is a great example for more understanding. Because it's so big it has a much stronger force of gravity i.e it curves spacetime more. (this is why it has 63 moons and probably more. More objects are likely to fall in orbit around Jupiter because of its strong gravitational force.) So now picture the sun sending a gravitational wave and Jupiter doing the same. The sun and Jupiter (in astronomical terms) are very close to each other. So the two waves sent of by each mass will clash together. Once the clash is finished with, spacetime has adapted to the deformation. It's engraved. :wink: Now in the middle of this weird deformation of space (between the sun and Jupiter), we've got planets. The sun obviously has a stronger gravitational force, so the planets orbit the sun, but they are still effected by Jupiter's gravity. Making their orbits eccentric. (This is not completely proven, but today it is said that Jupiter probably has an effect in our solar system.) (And aswell, planet's past Jupiter still feel the effect of both the sun's and Jupiter's gravity) So yes. Gravitational waves interfere with each other.

*The reason planets orbit is around bigger mass is because they start off with velocity.Iif we were to slightly place a planet in space near a star in would be forced towards the star at an accelerated speed (dependant on the mass). "In would fall down the slope". In a black hole, "it would fall into the hole and be stuck".

CarstenDierks said:
Arising questions:

(5) Is it allowed to conclude out of (4) and (1) that the path of gravitons is not straight but also influenced by the curvature of spacetime (of other objects)? Meaning: Gravitons (gravitational waves) have to travel along our (curved) cosmos as it exists?

Ya, because all large object's are symmetric. They are all completely 3-Dimensional, and will exert gravitational waves (gravitons) in every direction of the cosmos.

CarstenDierks said:
(6) Out of (4): What about gravitational forces of 2 objects of identical mass on a 3rd object right in-between the two? Is the gravitational force for the 3rd object zero? But is spacetime not curved at that point due to the sum of the curvature of the first two objects?

Let's make sure that the objects have the same density also.
This is a complicated question and is being studied today by trying to understand what's going on in binary star systems and star clusters. But I'll say this, because the question is answerable. As long as the objects are sperated by inches, centimeters, millimeters, they will both exerted the same gravitational wave (because they are the same mass and density). But when these waves "clash" together they will have a different overall curvature of space. Possible equal to the sum of each of their gravitational forces, but not exactly sure. But if we put an object in the middle I'm stumped. One would have to study the motion of this 3rd object a lot to understand what kind of pattern (orbit) it would follow, and why is that so. It's being studied as we speak. There are a lot of experts on this site that might have a basic answer, but it is a complicated matter.

CarstenDierks said:
(7) Out of (6): So are gravitons (gravitational waves) and the curvature of spacetime really equal?

Let's put it this way. Gravitational waves (gravitons) curve spacetime at equal magnitudes.

CarstenDierks said:
(8) Out of (2): Is this true for black holes? Do they curve spacetime and the curvature "rests" there because the gravitons (gravitational waves) cannot escape from inside of the black hole? Is the gravitational field of black holes never "updated" by gravitons (gravitational waves)?

None of this happens. The curve rests with every object in space wherther it's a black hole or pluto. The same as any object in space, once it's there, it's there with the speed of light, then it's engraved in space. Your question does makes sense though. But the let's say a black hole gained mass. The second it did so it would curve space more, in all directions. The reason the gravitational waves can "escape" the "hole" (the strong force of gravity) is because they travel along space curvature itself. Gravitons aren't exerted by the mass, they are exerted by the change in mass. Gravitons don't come out of the singularity of a black hole. They come from around.

One slight change is space curvature will effect the next and so on. So picture a gravitational wave in a black hole, it will travel in all directions around the singularity. This wave will curve this spot, that spot will curve the spot right after it and so on. It's one big wave. Not a particle. (String theory is the real use of the graviton.) So as one spot in space is affected (more curved), at the speed of light the next will be affected (curved). Leading to a spacetime wave climbing up the hole, climbing up the space fabric. The spacetime (gravitational) wave created the curve in the first place. You can't say that once the hole has changed (is deformed) the hole itself won't let it. It's already been changed. (The change is due to the change in mass)

CarstenDierks said:
(9) Out of (1), (3), (4), (7) and (8): How can black holes capture gravitons (gravitational waves) inside the Schwarzschild radius and, at the same time, emit gravitons (gravitational waves) to curve space and exert gravitational force?

Think I covered this. I also think you mean the event horizon not the Schwarzschild radius, which is where nothing can escape. Gravitational waves (packets of gravitons) don't have to escape the event horizon, "they go around it". In other words they travel along the curve of a black hole as a wave. They are what put the event horizon there in the first place.

CarstenDierks said:
(10) Out of (9): How does quantum and/or string theory explain the speed and escape speed of gravitons (gravitational waves)?

The speed of a graviton is that of light: "c". Quantum and string theory, uses the graviton's properties and finds that they match those to supersymmetric strings. Example: they both have spin-2. The graviton is a way to incorperated gravity into particle physics and string theory.

Carsten I think your questions are very valid and I understand their meaning. I hope I was able to cover them, and it is a difficult task to both ask, answer and understand what is going on in spacetime curvature of a black hole. Hope I helped :smile:
 
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  • #31
Louis Cypher said:
as we know even photons probably have mass, all be it extremely small.

Photons have zero rest mass. They do however, have relavitistic mass equal to:

M_{relavitistic. photon}=\frac{hv}{c^2}
 
  • #32
it occurs to me that possibly the force-carrying particle of gravity itself might be the tachyon.

-ben
 
  • #33
I did not know that, though if this were completely true it would highly effect string theory.

P.S. Carsten, if you didn't know the tachyon is a particle said to travel faster than light. But it hasn't been proven yet.
 
  • #34
benpadiah said:
it occurs to me that possibly the force-carrying particle of gravity itself might be the tachyon.

-ben

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon

Here it doesn't say anything about tachyons making up gravitational waves or tachyons carrying any force of gravity.
 
  • #35
and we all know that if it doesn't say it in a book, or at least on the internet, than it cannot be possible.

-ben
 
  • #36
There is no "force-carrying particle of gravity". Gravity is the result of the impact various forms of stable vortices (particles) make on what is eroneously called "the vacuum". Any vortex will move towards a region where it is more free to rotate. Thus space-time seems warped by mass, and it is, and it is in terms of QM but in QM the fact the level of the "vacuum" is shifted by the action of the vortec of the particle itself is glossed over. Einstein's left side of his equation is spot on. His right side is right as well but just needs updating. The big "G" needs to be rephrased so that it includes the ZPF. Well that's the first step. Then next is to add in the extra dimensions...
 
  • #37
Exactly.
I think tachyons have really nothing to do with gravity.
 
  • #38
CarstenDierks said:
As far as I know the Schwarzschild radius is the event horizon since the escape speed at this point becomes c.
The Schwarzschild radius is the radius at which the density of an object would be sufficient for that object to establish an event horizon and become a black hole. Every object has a Schwarzschild radius. The Schwarzschild radius always describes a sphere. However, not every object is dense enough to be a black hole. In a non-rotating black hole, you are correct, and the Schwarzschild radius is identical to the event horizon.

However, in a rotating black hole, the event horizon is distorted into a spheroid by an effect called frame dragging; this effect is one of the few predictions of the General Theory of Relativity that has not been confirmed. Recent experiments using Earth-orbiting satellites appear to show frame dragging is a reality; but the certainty is not yet high enough to declare this as a fact. Assuming that this is true, then there could be a region of a rotating black hole (near the equator) where the Schwarzschild radius would be inside the edge of the event horizon; the event horizon would then project out past the Schwarzschild radius. Surrounding this area would be an area where frame dragging would take place, and that frame dragging would be in excess of the speed of light outward from the Schwarzschild radius (not the event horizon!) to the same distance as that radius. Within this area of frame dragging, very close to the event horizon but still outside it, is an area called the ergosphere. No object in the ergosphere can avoid rotating with the hole; to do so, it would have to travel faster than the speed of light. At the edge of the ergosphere, an object must travel at the speed of light to avoid rotating with the hole. Matter inside the ergosphere but outside the event horizon can theoretically eventually escape from the black hole; anything that enters the event horizon can never leave.

Kerr's solutions to GRT that describe the rotating black hole have some other very peculiar effects, particularly on the singularity, which becomes a ring, and also the possibility of a so-called "naked singularity;" this has more information.
 
  • #39
Hi DB,

First of all: Thank you very much for your great explanations! That clarifies a lot!

I have still some comments on it. Also some questions remain or are newly evoked. I hope I may ask them.

DB said:
I'm not an expert, but I'll try to anwser your questions with my best knowledge of general relativity. I hope you like reading...
Yes, I definitely enjoyed it!

DB said:
(Think of gravitational waves through the water anology, but don't think of it as what gravity is, because you can't sink to the bottom of spacetime. The bowling ball anology is good for gravity.)
Plus: After the stone has sunk to the bottom, the water surface is flat again. This is what distracted me. So: space stays curved after the wave.

DB said:
Ill say no, but I don't exactly understand the question.
Well it was either (2) or (3). So if we consider (2: space stays curved) as correct, (3: after a ripple has curved space it flattens again) is incorrect.

DB said:
So now picture the sun sending a gravitational wave and Jupiter doing the same. The sun and Jupiter (in astronomical terms) are very close to each other. So the two waves sent of by each mass will clash together. Once the clash is finished with, spacetime has adapted to the deformation. It's engraved.
The picture is good. Moreover, the curvature stays not fixed since Jupiter orbits the sun. Jupiter sends out gravitational waves all the time due to its acceleration. As far as I read, accelerated mass sends out gravitational waves. So Jupiter can (has to) update his gravitational field (or: space dent) all the time.

DB said:
But if we put an object in the middle I'm stumped. One would have to study the motion of this 3rd object a lot to understand what kind of pattern (orbit) it would follow, and why is that so. It's being studied as we speak. There are a lot of experts on this site that might have a basic answer, but it is a complicated matter.
I believe we have to distinguish between two different effects:
(a) The gravitational forces of both masses exhibit field vectors of opposite directions. Thus, right in-between them the sum of the vectors equals zero.
(b) In terms of space curvature, we have a small "hill" in-between the dents of both masses. The top of the hill constitutes a point of instable balance. If the particle rests right at this point, it will stay. One small move of the particle to either side will lead to gravitational attraction by one of the masses.

However, this indicates to me, that curvature of spacetime and gravitational waves (gravitons) are not equal.

Textbooks say: Space curvature is gravitation. But I ask: Does curved space provide for vector directions?

A gravitational wave or a graviton propagates with a vector direction. A curved space (which rests) apparently not. Or am I wrong?

DB said:
Let's put it this way. Gravitational waves (gravitons) curve spacetime at equal magnitudes.
Yes, the first is action and the second is reaction.

DB said:
The reason the gravitational waves can "escape" the "hole" (the strong force of gravity) is because they travel along space curvature itself. ...Leading to a spacetime wave climbing up the hole, climbing up the space fabric. ...
Still escaping and climbing with the speed of c?

DB said:
I also think you mean the event horizon not the Schwarzschild radius, which is where nothing can escape. Gravitational waves (packets of gravitons) don't have to escape the event horizon, "they go around it".
Well, I read the event horizon is the Schwarzschild radius. Of course, a radius and a horizon are different things: the horizon is located at that radius. Or do you have different definitions of Schwarzschild radius and event horizon?

Well, I am afraid, I am coming up with more questions than answers.

Carsten
 
  • #40
CarstenDierks said:
Plus: After the stone has sunk to the bottom, the water surface is flat again. This is what distracted me. So: space stays curved after the wave.
Yup, stays curved.
CarstenDierks said:
The picture is good. Moreover, the curvature stays not fixed since Jupiter orbits the sun. Jupiter sends out gravitational waves all the time due to its acceleration. As far as I read, accelerated mass sends out gravitational waves. So Jupiter can (has to) update his gravitational field (or: space dent) all the time.
Yes, it orbits, but as it keeps around the same radial distanse (elliptical) its curvature of space remains proportional as it orbits. Is Jupiter really accelerating? I didn't know this.
CarstenDierks said:
I believe we have to distinguish between two different effects:
(a) The gravitational forces of both masses exhibit field vectors of opposite directions. Thus, right in-between them the sum of the vectors equals zero.
(b) In terms of space curvature, we have a small "hill" in-between the dents of both masses. The top of the hill constitutes a point of instable balance. If the particle rests right at this point, it will stay. One small move of the particle to either side will lead to gravitational attraction by one of the masses.
Perfect! It makes sense! I'm sorry, I had thought that it would be more complicated but your description totally gives me a visual. Thanks. (but I still do assume in star clusters its more complicated)
CarstenDierks said:
However, this indicates to me, that curvature of spacetime and gravitational waves (gravitons) are not equal.
Could you elaborate more on this please? I think you have a point but I can't understand it.
CarstenDierks said:
Textbooks say: Space curvature is gravitation. But I ask: Does curved space provide for vector directions?
It provides for the vector directions of gravitational waves, created by mass; curving space sending of its waves in every direction of spacetime.
CarstenDierks said:
A gravitational wave or a graviton propagates with a vector direction. A curved space (which rests) apparently not. Or am I wrong?
You're right.
CarstenDierks said:
Still escaping and climbing with the speed of c?
Yup. Climbing up spactime, up the curve that the mass created.
CarstenDierks said:
Well, I read the event horizon is the Schwarzschild radius. Of course, a radius and a horizon are different things: the horizon is located at that radius. Or do you have different definitions of Schwarzschild radius and event horizon?

DB said:
Picture a cone with the base upward. The tip of the cone is the singularity, the circumference of the circular base is the event horizon, the radius of that base is simply the schwarzschild radius. :wink:

:smile:
 
  • #41
We're learning from each other. :wink:
This is why I love physicsforums.
 
  • #42
Hi Carsten, I'd like to give you a slightly different viewpoint on the answers to some of your questions that may help you understand better. As DB said, I hope you like reading!
CarstenDierks said:
For me it is difficult to understand why gravitational waves (gravitons) should propagate through spacetime with c and, thus, cause space curvature (if I have understood that correctly).
This is the first part of the problem right here. Gravity can propagate in waves, but the normal everyday gravity that we deal with does not. It is merely a distortion of spacetime.

Think of an electron. There it sits. It has an electric charge, which distorts space all around it; we call this distortion the "electric field." Its nature is described by Maxwell's equations. But do you see any waves coming from it? No, you do not. If you did, then it would be emitting energy- and a motionless electron has no energy to emit, so that would violate mass-energy conservation.

That field, in quantum mechanical terms, is a field of virtual photons. These virtual photons are emitted and reabsorbed by the vacuum surrounding the electron so quickly that their presence is not in violation of the conservation law, because of uncertainty. Remember, though, that these are virtual photons, not real ones.

OK, so now we move the electron around some way. In fact, we oscillate it. Now it has some energy; and it emits that energy- as photons! And these are not virtual photons- they are real, and they go shooting off into space. In fact, if we get a whole bunch of electrons to do this together, inside of a wire, we can make radio waves. And in fact, that is exactly how a radio works- and it makes electromagnetic energy, which is photons.

So now you can see the difference between an electric field and an electric wave. The first is virtual photons; the second is real photons.

In the same way, a planet or star creates a distortion of space around it; but instead of being the space of electrical fields, this is the space of gravity fields. And that space, instead of being a separate entity from our normal spacetime like the space of electromagnetic fields, is our normal spacetime. So there are a few things that are a little different because of that. But the principle remains the same.

Now you can see that gravity waves are a different thing from the gravity field; and you can also see that the gravity field is only virtual gravitons (yes, yes, I know, we haven't proven they exist yet... I'm getting there), but the gravity waves are real gravitons. They make up gravity radiation.

So now your question is, "what is the speed of gravity waves?" And the answer is, "the speed of light." And your next question (and it is a different one!) is, "what is the speed of propagation of gravity?" And the answer is the same.

Now, all we have right now to describe gravity is the equivalent of Maxwell's equations, called the General Theory of Relativity, but for gravity instead of for electromagnetism and light. This theory talks about a lot of other things than gravity, because gravity warps spacetime, and GRT tells all about spacetime; but among the things we get from GRT is the field equations for the gravity force, and for gravity radiation.

We have QED (quantum electrodynamics) for our quantum theory of light and electromagnetism; and we even have a quantum field theory to describe electromagnetism and light. But we have neither a quantum theory nor a quantum field theory for gravity. Every time we try to make one, we run up against infinities in all the equations. There's some really crucial concept we just don't understand yet.

But that doesn't mean we don't understand gravity; we have field equations for it. We just don't understand quantum gravity. Keep in mind that all of electronics up until a very short time ago were all based completely on Maxwell's Equations; we never needed QED to design electrical circuits. Just recently, we started doing things sophisticated enough that the field equations aren't enough; but we still don't do very many things like that, and mostly we still just use the field equations. There are actually electrical engineers who are having problems because they have to learn quantum mechanics- QED, specifically- and they have only ever needed Maxwell's equations all their lives!

CarstenDierks said:
(1) If gravitons (gravitational waves) are not at rest in a gravitational field, this would imply to me that mass needs to constantly emit gravitational waves (gravitons) to "replace" those which are "gone".
No. They are virtual gravitons. They are emitted and reabsorbed by the vacuum, because it is under stress from the presence of the mass. Just as it is under stress from the presence of an electric charge and emits and reabsorbs virtual photons.

CarstenDierks said:
(2) If mass curves spacetime: Is the curvature once "engraved" in spacetime and "rests" there until a new gravitational wave "updates the information"?
The curvature changes as the object moves, but the change reaches out across the curvature at the speed of light. So there is a lag at the outside reaches of the gravity field. But remember, the waves are created by oscillation; simple movement doesn't distort things enough to create gravity waves.

CarstenDierks said:
Or:
(3) Is the curvature of spacetime just "newly" evoked by every ripple of a gravitational wave passing by?
I assume this is obvious from the above.

CarstenDierks said:
(4) Do gravitational waves interfere with each other? Probably yes because gravitational forces and the curvature of space of two objects do add up.
Yes, of course they would. But remember that you would have to either reflect them from something, or you would have to have two sources of waves; simple gravity fields aren't enough to create waves, you have to have oscillation.

CarstenDierks said:
(5) Is it allowed to conclude out of (4) and (1) that the path of gravitons is not straight but also influenced by the curvature of spacetime (of other objects)? Meaning: Gravitons (gravitational waves) have to travel along our (curved) cosmos as it exists?
Yes, that is correct.

CarstenDierks said:
(6) Out of (4): What about gravitational forces of 2 objects of identical mass on a 3rd object right in-between the two? Is the gravitational force for the 3rd object zero? But is spacetime not curved at that point due to the sum of the curvature of the first two objects?
There will be an area where the curvature of space-time forms a "lane" directly between the two massive objects. Any object along that lane, and equidistant from the two massive objects, would feel no net force. But don't be fooled by your physics book's picture of a "rubber sheet" with the two massive objects making "dimples" that both attract the object between; this is in four dimensional spacetime, so it is just a matter of the forces balancing.

Keep in mind as well that such an object would still be subject to tidal forces, unless it were of zero thickness. So it's really best to say it feels no net attractive force, because it does feel a tidal force that is the sum of the two tidal forces, rather than their difference (I'll leave it to you to figure out why; it will give you confidence in dealing with such situations).

CarstenDierks said:
(7) Out of (6): So are gravitons (gravitational waves) and the curvature of spacetime really equal?
No. Real gravitons are a sign of gravitational waves; virtual gravitons are a sign of a gravitational field.

CarstenDierks said:
(8) Out of (2): Is this true for black holes? Do they curve spacetime and the curvature "rests" there because the gravitons (gravitational waves) cannot escape from inside of the black hole? Is the gravitational field of black holes never "updated" by gravitons (gravitational waves)?
Yes, this is also true of black holes. The gravitational field does not emanate from inside the hole, nor do the virtual gravitons; the field is the consequence of the mass, not the product of the mass, although you will come across books by some rather famous people who have forgotten this. Similarly, the virtual gravitons are not emitted by the hole; they are produced by the vacuum as a result of the stress placed on it by the warping that is the consequence of the mass, they are not produced by the hole. For the rest, including the lag, everything stays pretty much the same. I did another post in which I described frame dragging, and there are some consequences that you should think about of that that I did not detail in that post. Can you see what they might be?

CarstenDierks said:
(9) Out of (1), (3), (4), (7) and (8): How can black holes capture gravitons (gravitational waves) inside the Schwarzschild radius and, at the same time, emit gravitons (gravitational waves) to curve space and exert gravitational force?
It is two different things. Remember, it is not the singularity that emits the virtual gravitons; it is the vacuum that does it. That should clarify this point for you. In field terms, the curvature of spacetime is controlled by the mass inside it; there is no reason why that curvature should not continue right on through the event horizon, although we cannot look inside the event horizon to see that it is so.

It is probable (I have not seen it mentioned anywhere) that any gravity waves that might be emitted by the singularity would not be able to exit the event horizon, because gravitational radiation could not make it past it any more than light could.

CarstenDierks said:
(10) Out of (9): How does quantum and/or string theory explain the speed and escape speed of gravitons (gravitational waves)?
I think the above is sufficient; remember that there is no viable quantum theory of gravity, and that string theory cannot currently provide specific equations that describe this state of affairs. I'd stick with the field equations that we have that we know work; they are our best source of knowledge at this time.


CarstenDierks said:
I hope I was able to put everything into the context as it currently occurs to me - and to show where my gaps in understand (relating) it are situated.

Carsten
Well, I hope that helped!

DB, I also hope I didn't irritate you- my intent was not to replace or refute what you were saying, it was to add my own perspective, which seems different from yours, though not in opposition to it. I expect to learn a thing or two from reading your responses.
 
  • #43
No problem Schneibster. No irritation here. I learned a lot from your post. I think you say it perfect:

"the virtual gravitons are not emitted by the hole; they are produced by the vacuum as a result of the stress placed on it by the warping that is the consequence of the mass"

This is a great definition of the creation of gravitational waves or virtual gravitons. "Stress placed on a vacuum by mass."
 
  • #44
DB said:
I think tachyons have really nothing to do with gravity.

I'll remember you said that.

-ben
 
  • #45
Hi Schneibster,

Thank you very much. I really enjoyed reading and understanding. I was just a little busy during the past days so I have just currently found some time to respond. I am sorry for being a little overdue…

Schneibster said:
Keep in mind as well that such an object would still be subject to tidal forces, unless it were of zero thickness. So it's really best to say it feels no net attractive force, because it does feel a tidal force that is the sum of the two tidal forces, rather than their difference (I'll leave it to you to figure out why; it will give you confidence in dealing with such situations).
I assume you mean the tidal force at both sides of the object. Either side is closer to one of the masses and, thus, its particles feel a greater attraction to one of them like tidal waves on Earth caused by the moon.

Of course, if it was just one quantum particle right in the middle of the two masses, it would not be exposed to tidal forces but “feel” zero gravity.

Schneibster said:
No. Real gravitons are a sign of gravitational waves; virtual gravitons are a sign of a gravitational field.
When examining real gravitons and virtual gravitons, what is the difference of their properties as a quantum particle?

Schneibster said:
I did another post in which I described frame dragging, and there are some consequences that you should think about of that that I did not detail in that post. Can you see what they might be?
Where did you post it? Do you indicate time dilation and length contraction associated with frame dragging? Would this weaken the gravitational field?

Schneibster said:
I think the above is sufficient; remember that there is no viable quantum theory of gravity, and that string theory cannot currently provide specific equations that describe this state of affairs. I'd stick with the field equations that we have that we know work; they are our best source of knowledge at this time.
OK. But what needs to be done, which gravitational problems have to be solved in string theory?

Schneibster said:
Well, I hope that helped!
Yes, indeed!

I still have some other small questions which I will include in the next post.

Thanks a lot,

Carsten
 
  • #46
Hi Schneibster,

Here are the other small questions. I hope I will not bother you too much with them:

Schneibster said:
But we have neither a quantum theory nor a quantum field theory for gravity. Every time we try to make one, we run up against infinities in all the equations.
Which are they in detail? Or at least the most important ones?


Schneibster said:
Just recently, we started doing things sophisticated enough that the field equations aren't enough; but we still don't do very many things like that, and mostly we still just use the field equations.
What are these sophisticated things?


Schneibster said:
But remember, the waves are created by oscillation; simple movement doesn't distort things enough to create gravity waves.
By oscillation you mean something like an orbit around a sun? Or what would it be exactly? When mass moves through space, does it not need to send out gravitational waves to “update” space curvature around it? Eventually it has moved and so has the gravitational “information carved into space” around it.


Schneibster said:
There will be an area where the curvature of space-time forms a "lane" directly between the two massive objects. Any object along that lane, and equidistant from the two massive objects, would feel no net force.
With these “lanes” you mean geodetic lines?


Schneibster said:
In field terms, the curvature of spacetime is controlled by the mass inside it; there is no reason why that curvature should not continue right on through the event horizon, although we cannot look inside the event horizon to see that it is so.
Of course, we do not know for sure if gravity in the singularity behaves totally alike as in our “normal” cosmos, right? Especially, if temperatures rise to extreme heights…

What happens physically, if real gravitons of a gravitational wave are kept inside a black hole? Will they come across the same point in space more than once? Will they thus curve space stronger? Will they accumulate behind the event horizon? Will they fall back into singularity? Will the gravitational waves interfere with each other?

I know, I am still curious…

Carsten
 
  • #47
CarstenDierks said:
Hi Schneibster,

Thank you very much. I really enjoyed reading and understanding. I was just a little busy during the past days so I have just currently found some time to respond. I am sorry for being a little overdue…
Sure! I'm glad it helped you understand.


CarstenDierks said:
I assume you mean the tidal force at both sides of the object. Either side is closer to one of the masses and, thus, its particles feel a greater attraction to one of them like tidal waves on Earth caused by the moon.
The tidal force is felt all through an object, and it tends to pull the object apart. The tidal force near a neutron star or black hole would kill you; and it would do so farther away if you had your feet toward the center of mass and your head away than if you lay prone with your back or your chest pointing toward the center of mass. This is because the difference in pull increases with the distance between the far and near sides of the object feeling the tides. The reason for the tidal force is because the force of gravity decreases as the square of the distance; thus, the far side is pulled with less force than the near side, and the difference between the pulls is the tidal force.

Consider carefully that since the tidal force is attempting to pull the object apart, while the gravity on an object between two others might cancel, the tidal forces would add!

CarstenDierks said:
Of course, if it was just one quantum particle right in the middle of the two masses, it would not be exposed to tidal forces but “feel” zero gravity.
If the point-particle physics theories are correct, then yes, that is correct- but if string physics is correct, then there might be a slight tidal force, because strings are not zero size.

CarstenDierks said:
When examining real gravitons and virtual gravitons, what is the difference of their properties as a quantum particle?
If gravitons even exist, you mean? ;)

There is no difference in their properties; but of course there is a difference in their behavior, and that difference is that a real particle travels long-distance through space, whereas the virtual particle is very limited in how far it can travel because it must disappear before uncertainty time runs out. Remember that energy (and therefore mass, by E=mc^2) and time are conjugate under uncertainty.

CarstenDierks said:
Where did you post it?
In this thread; here.

CarstenDierks said:
Do you indicate time dilation and length contraction associated with frame dragging? Would this weaken the gravitational field?
Frame dragging doesn't result in time dilation and length contraction, except as the standard result of the perception of velocity on the part of the object accelerated by the frame dragging by an observer to whom it is in relative motion. Frame dragging doesn't weaken gravity; it is an effect of the gravity of a rotating mass.

CarstenDierks said:
OK. But what needs to be done, which gravitational problems have to be solved in string theory?
String physics incorporates a quantum theory of gravity; unfortunately, no one knows what the exact equations that describe a theory of physics that makes contact with our real-world observations are. Only the approximate equations are known, and none of them yield enough detail to allow the precise correct equations to be determined so that experiments can be run to see if they agree with reality or not. You should read Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe for more information.

Because string physics cannot be confirmed at the current time, I usually prefer to call it "string physics," since it is not yet a formal theory.

CarstenDierks said:
I still have some other small questions which I will include in the next post.

Thanks a lot,

Carsten
Sure, go ahead.
 
  • #48
CarstenDierks said:
Which are they in detail? Or at least the most important ones?
We get infinite probabilities for the equations that describe the interaction of the graviton with other particles. Probabilities run from zero to one; we don't know what a probability of two means, much less a probability of infinity.

CarstenDierks said:
What are these sophisticated things?
Semiconductors. Most EEs use approximations of their behavior. It is rare in an engineering setting to need to know more than that; but if you have to, then the quantum properties of the materials become important. A good example would be gallium arsenide laser diodes.

The first approximation of a silicon junction between P-type and N-type materials is 0.7V. Thus, when you need to know the "on" voltage across the base-to-emitter junction of an NPN transistor, in the first approximation where the current is minimal, you can just use 0.7V there. To get the precise value, you must either measure the transistor on a curve tracer, or you must have a reliable figure for the DC amplification factor, called "DC beta," from the manufacturer. The accuracy of the figures from the manufacturer is generally limited, and they give a range that may be orders of magnitude. However, in most situations, particularly in troubleshooting, this level of approximation is sufficient.

CarstenDierks said:
By oscillation you mean something like an orbit around a sun? Or what would it be exactly? When mass moves through space, does it not need to send out gravitational waves to “update” space curvature around it? Eventually it has moved and so has the gravitational “information carved into space” around it.
Oscillation in general is a complex phenomenon. I would envision a star or planet suspended in a rigid motionless frame by springs, bouncing back and forth; this is of course impossible in real life, but analogous situations can occur, for instance if two massive objects are orbiting one another and the orbit is unstable and the objects are getting closer and closer. Astronomers believe that they will be able to detect gravitational radiation from stars falling into supermassive black holes believed to be at the centers of many galaxies using a project called LIGO that is currently being built in the northwestern US. They also believe they will be able to detect something much more rare: the merging of two black holes, or two neutron stars, or a neutron star and a black hole. They expect to be able to find out some really interesting details about gravity from this information.

The variations in the gravity field caused by linear motion will of course result in a continuous "update" of the gravity field of an object, but they do not create "waves" of gravity. To create a wave from any motion requires an oscillation; this is a general fact of physics, not limited to gravity fields but also true (as my example showed) of the electromagnetic field. You cannot use the analogy of water waves, like from the prow of a boat, which is what it sounds like you are trying to do; water waves are transverse waves, but light and gravity waves are longitudinal, and furthermore while water presents resistance to the movement of objects, space does not.

CarstenDierks said:
With these “lanes” you mean geodetic lines?
Actually, I was thinking in terms of the exact analogy I told you not to use; a rubber sheet. :eek: If two bowling balls were put on the sheet, there would be a "groove" running between them. This is what I meant by a "lane."

CarstenDierks said:
Of course, we do not know for sure if gravity in the singularity behaves totally alike as in our “normal” cosmos, right? Especially, if temperatures rise to extreme heights…
...and that is because we do not have a quantum theory of gravity! But even without it, we know that the strength of the field at any point is dependent on the size of each mass that affects that point and its distance from that point; if any of the masses is moving, then it also depends on the state of motion. This is independent of whether the mass is a black hole, or a regular star, or a planet, or whatnot. It is also independent of temperature, at least as far as we know; and in fact, we know that it is independent of temperature to at least 10 million degrees Kelvin, because we have a pretty thorough understanding of our Sun.

CarstenDierks said:
What happens physically, if real gravitons of a gravitational wave are kept inside a black hole? Will they come across the same point in space more than once? Will they thus curve space stronger? Will they accumulate behind the event horizon? Will they fall back into singularity? Will the gravitational waves interfere with each other?

I know, I am still curious…

Carsten
Hee hee, nobody knows the answers to any of these questions. Remember Hawking: "A black hole has no hair."
 
  • #49
Schneibster said:
... The variations in the gravity field caused by linear motion will of course result in a continuous "update" of the gravity field of an object, but they do not create "waves" of gravity ...
But suppose gravity is itself caused by waves? Since it is generally admitted that we have no satisfactory theory as to the cause of gravity, perhaps my own model deserves consideration. It is possibly similar in effect to string theory, but involves no "gravitons", whether real or virtual, only waves, which are being produced and absorbed all the time by all condensed matter. Under my "Phi-Wave Aether" model, gravity is of the same nature as all other forces: they all travel at speed c as waves in the aether, the differences between them being due to different degrees of coherence and different higher-level periodic patterns superposed on very high frequency longitudinal waves. The "fields" are themselves formed by waves, and are all constantly updated, whether or not the sources are moving.

Just a thought ...

I haven't tried to incorporate black holes into the theory, but if I'm right there is no avoiding propagation at speed c.

Caroline
http://freespace.virgin.net/ch.thompson1/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #50
Schneibster said:
Actually, I was thinking in terms of the exact analogy I told you not to use
How come we shouldn't use the bowling ball analogy?
 

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