Is Internet Access a Human Right?

[Greg Bernhardt]

Is access to the Internet a universal human right that should be recognized by the United Nations? *This*question,*buzzing around the world this week, is certainly one that I hadn’t thought of at length until now, so I posed it to … http://virtualnavigator.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/is-internet-access-a-human-right-reflections-in-the-wake-of-the-egyptian-protests/" http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=virtualnavigator.wordpress.com&blog=11498882&post=503&subd=virtualnavigator&ref=&feed=1

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[Evo]

That's like asking if a telephone, cell phones, radio, tv, etc... is a human right. I say no.

 

[waht]

Why not save a step and say that the internet is something that is and will continue to be. No need for absolutism here.

The internet has potential to provide the ultimate form of communication between people and as a result it can keep governments at bay.

The question is should governments control and manipulate the internet as a propaganda tool?

 

[Pengwuino]

No it is not a human right. No one has to pay $50/month for a human right. Especially something that is purely commercial.

 

[WhoWee]

I would say internet access is not a human right - reminds me of this story.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110203/us_nm/us_manson_cell

"Mass murderer Charles Manson was caught with a cell phone behind bars for the second time in two years, a California prison official said on Wednesday.

The state bars mobile phones for all inmates, out of a concern they could use the devices to mastermind crimes in the outside world, or arrange attacks on inmates or guards."

It's legal for anyone to purchase a car - only responsible drivers are permitted to drive.

 

[brainstorm]

The infrastructure for the communication lines that carry internet signals have to be built and maintained. I don't see why it shouldn't be a right for people to have equal access to the infrastructure based on economic rationality. For example, if someone wants to build their own line to connect to a public server, why shouldn't they be allowed to do that? If that's not feasible, then why wouldn't it make sense to regulate the lines as a public monopoly/good and have public accountability for pricing and spending, as with other public utilities?

Still, I don't get how some servers are connected on a public network while others are private intranets. Why does a cable company get to connect to the internet for free but its clients have to pay the cable company? Why can't clients directly connect to the internet the same way the cable company does?

 

[Evo]

For example, if someone wants to build their own line to connect to a public server, why shouldn't they be allowed to do that? If that's not feasible, then why wouldn't it make sense to regulate the lines as a public monopoly/good and have public accountability for pricing and spending, as with other public utilities?

I don't know what you think a 'public" server" is, but I'm sure it's not what you think.

Still, I don't get how some servers are connected on a public network while others are private intranets.

A private intranet is simply a private data network, often leased by companies to keep their data off of the public internet.

Why does a cable company get to connect to the internet for free but its clients have to pay the cable company? Why can't clients directly connect to the internet the same way the cable company does?

Cable companies do not get to connect to the internet for free.

 

[Pinu7]

If the users payed for it, the government is out of line for taking it away.

 

[Evo]

If the users payed for it, the government is out of line for taking it away.

In many countries the Government owns the telephone company which is also the internet provider. The government pays for it, the subscribers are...just subscribers. They have no say over if the service stays up.

Even if it is a private company, they provide service according to what the government allows.

When you have a country like Egypt with 4 internet/cell phone operators, it is very easy to shut off service, of course they can be cut. The fact that people have become addicted to them, does not make them a right.

MPLS can be dynamically re-routed around a cut, but the entire network can be compromised quickly.

Intranets can connect to extranets and form an internet link open to outside users. Basically, the more competition, the harder it is to shut down.

Phones, cell phones, internet, mail service, package delivery, radio, tv, etc..., these are services and conveniences.

Trying to shut down internet access would be much more difficult in the US. Thousands of companies own international private lines, which are almost impossible to shut down, that is where the strength lies, although they are being replaced by cheaper MPLS, . Internet carried via frame relay and MPLS can be shut off with a computer command. So can the internet that is not private line based. Satellites can be interfered with.

I'd say land lines are pretty secure. That is how some info out of Egypt was getting out at first.

 

[brainstorm]

I don't know what you think a 'public" server" is, but I'm sure it's not what you think.

It must not be because years ago I heard that the internet consisted of numerous private servers that were voluntarily connected as hubs for html transmissions. Supposedly the signal automatically atomized and routed itself in the most efficient way through the network, with different parts of the signal taking different routes through different servers if necessary.

I suppose it makes sense that server-controllers would charge connection fees to other server-controllers, though I don't know what factors would determine the price? If you have a very large rural area with just a few clients, would you have to pay the same price as a server in a dense urban area with loads of clients to share the cost?

A private intranet is simply a private data network, often leased by companies to keep their data off of the public internet.

I wasn't talking about a closed network. I just meant a server-operator that controlled a subnetwork of connections among its clients and provided them access to the rest of the internet.

Cable companies do not get to connect to the internet for free.

But who do they have to pay then? They don't pay every server they connect with in the process of routing information around globally, do they? Do they pay every server they connect with directly? Who owns the big fiber optic lines (are those still called T1?)?

Are the money-hungry of the world to the point of shutting down the internet until they get GDP growth up to target levels? If so, that will be a rough ride. Of course, I shouldn't complain since there are plenty of people, presumably, who have already been priced out of being able to afford an internet connection.

 

[JaredJames]

In the UK, BT owns the entire infrastructure. All other companies rent the lines off them and only BT are allowed to conduct work on the lines.

For example, we're with TalkTalk, but it's BT who come out to fix any problems relating to the line.

Now, BT is a private company and not run by the government. But, the government has imposed a set of rules on them. One of them is that every person in the UK has the right to basic telephone services. If you want to read all the rules, the following page tells you all you need to know and is from the regulator themselves (Oftel):

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/publications/consumer/consguides/cons0602.htm

However, that is as far as your rights go. They do not have to provide you with free phone calls (emergencies aside), nor do they have to provide you with internet access. These are additional services, provided to you at your own expense.

 

[JaredJames]

It must not be because years ago I heard that the internet consisted of numerous private servers that were voluntarily connected as hubs for html transmissions. Supposedly the signal automatically atomized and routed itself in the most efficient way through the network, with different parts of the signal taking different routes through different servers if necessary.

I suppose it makes sense that server-controllers would charge connection fees to other server-controllers, though I don't know what factors would determine the price? If you have a very large rural area with just a few clients, would you have to pay the same price as a server in a dense urban area with loads of clients to share the cost?

But who do they have to pay then? They don't pay every server they connect with in the process of routing information around globally, do they? Do they pay every server they connect with directly? Who owns the big fiber optic lines (are those still called T1?)?

Are the money-hungry of the world to the point of shutting down the internet until they get GDP growth up to target levels? If so, that will be a rough ride. Of course, I shouldn't complain since there are plenty of people, presumably, who have already been priced out of being able to afford an internet connection.

You don't know how the internet works do you?

People (companies, government etc) pay for hosting, that is who pays the servers. The public (and those companies, governement etc) then pay separately (this is your internet connection charge and line rental) for the technology to access these servers. You pay for the infrastructure that connects them all.

It's not as straight forward as you are making out.

 

[brainstorm]

When you have a country like Egypt with 4 internet/cell phone operators, it is very easy to shut off service, of course they can be cut. The fact that people have become addicted to them, does not make them a right.

Maybe not, but it makes them questionable as a legitimate free market commodity if addiction is a serious factor in mitigating consumers' freedom of choice, doen't it?

Still, the issue isn't the service, is it? It's access to the frequencies. Should there be free market competition in building antennae? Should there be a public monopoly that provides free cell-phone service like a library lends out books (that's a weak analogy, I know)?

 

[JaredJames]

Still, the issue isn't the service, is it? It's access to the frequencies. Should there be free market competition in building antennae? Should there be a public monopoly that provides free cell-phone service like a library lends out books (that's a weak analogy, I know)?

Who pays for it? It's not cheap to run/maintain. There's a reason companies are trying to put off upgrading the services to accommodate higher data usage with the new smart phones.

I think it's important to point out that any mobile, sim card or not (registered or not), can make emergency calls (for free). It is a legal requirement. Even in areas where you can't use your phone due to poor signal, some emergency calls can be made. My mobile operator can cut me off for not paying a bill, but they can't stop me ringing 999. I have a right to access to emergency services, but not to free phone calls.

 

[brainstorm]

You don't know how the internet works do you?

Thanks to this thread, I'm learning.

People (companies, government etc) pay for hosting, that is who pays the servers. The public (and those companies, governement etc) then pay separately (this is your internet connection charge and line rental) for the technology to access these servers. You pay for the infrastructure that connects them all.

So if I want to invest in a network hub server, I can bid a price to local internet providers and they will pay me if I'm competitively priced and reliable? How would I then connect with other hubs? Would I have to own physical lines between my server and other hub servers?

 

[russ_watters]

The infrastructure for the communication lines that carry internet signals have to be built and maintained. I don't see why it shouldn't be a right for people to have equal access to the infrastructure based on economic rationality. For example, if someone wants to build their own line to connect to a public server, why shouldn't they be allowed to do that?

I don't think that's what is meant by 'a right to internet access'. Similar to the 'right to healthcare' that is popular today, the idea isn't that you have the freedom to get it yourself, but rather that the government must provide it for you. What you describe is covered under anti-descrimination law.

If that's not feasible, then why wouldn't it make sense to regulate the lines as a public monopoly/good and have public accountability for pricing and spending, as with other public utilities?

That's fine, but electric power is not a right. You have to pay for it...


...Errrrr...REBOOT!

When I first saw this thread, I thought it pretty obvious that internet access isn't a right, like others did - so I didn't see any need to add to something I agreed with. But now I realize there is a flaw in that logic. The problem is with the recently perverted definition of "rights" that has me knee-jerk reacting against it. People argue that healthcare is a right, by which they mean the government must provide it for them. But that's not what it means for something to be a "right". To be a right - by the definition used for the past few hundred years - only means the government can't take it from you.

Cell phone networks and the Internet today are for the most part privately owned and sold to the public as a service - I can only assume they are in Egypt as well. Under the traditional definition, then, the government is not entitled to arbitrarily deprive you of the right to purchase goods and services.

However, a revolution is by definition an illegal act. It's the citizens overthrowing the government. The government then does what it needs to do to preserve itself: Martial law infringes on a lot of rights.

So to sum up: legal commerce - and therefore internet access - is a right. However in a revolution, everyone is breaking the law (the people and the government), so the concept of "rights" basically goes out the window.

 

[Evo]

Thanks to this thread, I'm learning.


So if I want to invest in a network hub server, I can bid a price to local internet providers and they will pay me if I'm competitively priced and reliable? How would I then connect with other hubs? Would I have to own physical lines between my server and other hub servers?

It's very complex and exepensive. In order to peer, you need to meet some hefty requirements.

 

[JaredJames]

So if I want to invest in a network hub server, I can bid a price to local internet providers and they will pay me if I'm competitively priced and reliable? How would I then connect with other hubs? Would I have to own physical lines between my server and other hub servers?

Well for the UK, you never own your own lines unless you have them specifically installed.

Now I've never come across a "network hub server" before, we have network hubs and we have network servers. Perhaps someone else here can cover this with you.

Again for the UK, we have three major hubs I believe, all owned by BT.

Servers are owned privately and just hook up to the network with an IP address to them allowing you to connect (there's a fair bit more involved than that though). You don't get paid to host it, you pay an ISP to let you connect to the internet with it. Server hosts make money by charging people to use their servers to put their websites on.

 

[JaredJames]

To be a right - by the definition used for the past few hundred years - only means the government can't take it from you.

Agreed.

Cell phone networks and the Internet today are for the most part privately owned and sold to the public as a service - I can only assume they are in Egypt as well. Under the traditional definition, then, the government is not entitled to arbitrarily deprive you of the right to purchase goods and services.

The question is, where does private and public merge?

We have undersea cables connecting us all over the world. Who owns them?

The private sector may own and control the internal infrastructure - the government can't stop you buying/accessing that - but if the government owns the connections out of the country they can certainly stop you using them. By cutting you off from everything outside your country (particularly somewhere like Egypt where little is internal so far as site hosting goes) you kill the internet to that country, without killing the internal networks.

I've seen the graph of network activity to and from Egypt since the switch off, but it would be interesting to compare the send/receive of the country to the world with the send/receive of the internal networks. I may not be able to connect my PS3 to the servers and play with some Europeans, but I could still have a LAN party with my friends down the street. That sort of thing.

 

[Evo]

Under the traditional definition, then, the government is not entitled to arbitrarily deprive you of the right to purchase goods and services.

So the government has an obligation to furnish me with chili cheese dogs?

 

[JaredJames]

So the government has an obligation to furnish me with chili cheese dogs?

They can't stop you buying them, but they don't have to provide you with them is what I think russ was saying.

 

[Evo]

They can't stop you buying them, but they don't have to provide you with them is what I think russ was saying.

Well, then that's what we've been saying.

 

[russ_watters]

They can't stop you buying them, but they don't have to provide you with them is what I think russ was saying.

Yes.

Using the assumption that the service operates similar to the way it does in the US, the public had internet access a few weeks ago, provided by mostly private service companies. Perhaps as well, the government owned some of the infrastructure - in the US, the government doesn't own the power lines, but it does own the roads. But it owns the roads only as a convenience. That shouldn't be interpreted to mean roads are a government-provided entitlement. When the revolution started, the government changed the rules and cut off that infrastructure.

I'm not saying its right or wrong, I'm just saying it happened.

 

[brainstorm]

I don't think that's what is meant by 'a right to internet access'. Similar to the 'right to healthcare' that is popular today, the idea isn't that you have the freedom to get it yourself, but rather that the government must provide it for you. What you describe is covered under anti-descrimination law. That's fine, but electric power is not a right. You have to pay for it...

But when the service is provided by monopoly, you have the right not to be exploited. Competitive markets supposedly protect consumers against abusive pricing and contracts, which is why monopolies are supposed to be publicly regulated; i.e. to prevent exploitation of the monopoly position.

People argue that healthcare is a right, by which they mean the government must provide it for them. But that's not what it means for something to be a "right". To be a right - by the definition used for the past few hundred years - only means the government can't take it from you.

So how does that apply to the right to a speedy and public trial by jury? What about the right to be notified of charges against you or the right to a public defender?

Cell phone networks and the Internet today are for the most part privately owned and sold to the public as a service - I can only assume they are in Egypt as well. Under the traditional definition, then, the government is not entitled to arbitrarily deprive you of the right to purchase goods and services.

But are the providers entitled to exploit you in the provision of services?

However, a revolution is by definition an illegal act. It's the citizens overthrowing the government. The government then does what it needs to do to preserve itself: Martial law infringes on a lot of rights.

That would make the U.S. revolutionary war an illegal act and the U.S. should be returned to its colonial owners, no? It was my impression that people have the right to overthrow a government by the least violent/destructive means possible. If the government refuses to be accountable to reasonable standards of legitimacy, what other option would you have but to overthrow it?

So to sum up: legal commerce - and therefore internet access - is a right. However in a revolution, everyone is breaking the law (the people and the government), so the concept of "rights" basically goes out the window.

Nonsense. You think that if a revolution is going on, people have no duty to respect each others' rights? If you classify the situation as a war, people still can argue wartime rights. Besides, who says that there aren't certain universal rights that are independent of revolution or any other social state of affairs?

 

[brainstorm]

So the government has an obligation to furnish me with chili cheese dogs?

Not some food in particular, but if a government has the means to provide people with food who would otherwise suffer from malnutrition, why wouldn't the government have the responsibility to provide that food? If a doctor is confronted with a dying person, do they have the right to let the person die? No, they took an oath to save life whenever possible. So why shouldn't a government have the same responsibility to fulfill basic needs when it has the means to do so?

Now, you can still argue that internet isn't a basic need the way food and water are, but the question is whether government may deny support of internet service as a means to levy general censorship of free speech. It seems to me that any democratic government has the responsibility to provide some form of access to public discourse for all citizens. Otherwise, how can individuals have equal access to voicing their views publicly? Stand on a soapbox in public? At this point in online-discourse, I would personally find it curtailment of my democratic participation to have internet access unavailable. How many users of online forums wouldn't?

 

[JaredJames]

So how does that apply to the right to a speedy and public trial by jury? What about the right to be notified of charges against you or the right to a public defender?

Of course it does, it means the government can't stop those things happening. You have a right to them and the government can't take them away.

But are the providers entitled to exploit you in the provision of services?

Yes, they can charge what they like. That's the whole point of having a number of companies - competition prevents you being over charged and exploited. If you only have the one you get a monopoly - which is where regulation comes in.

That would make the U.S. revolutionary war an illegal act and the U.S. should be returned to its colonial owners, no? It was my impression that people have the right to overthrow a government by the least violent/destructive means possible. If the government refuses to be accountable to reasonable standards of legitimacy, what other option would you have but to overthrow it?

It was an illegal act. That has nothing to do with it not being returned to the "colonial owners".

Nonsense. You think that if a revolution is going on, people have no duty to respect each others' rights? If you classify the situation as a war, people still can argue wartime rights. Besides, who says that there aren't certain universal rights that are independent of revolution or any other social state of affairs?

That is a very naively written paragraph. In war, there are absolutely no rights. We only have "war rights" now because the powers that be gave them to us. The rules of war only exist because those in power said they should.

If you remove those who rule and grant said rules / rights, you get rid of the rules / rights too.

Here's an example, in the past the order to "give no quarter" could be issued. It meant to kill all those you come across, not sparing anyone. Now however, it is illegal to issue that order - because the powerful nations agreed it should be.

If those nations are no longer there with their armies to enforce those rules, there is no one to stop the order being given.

Rights, as with all laws/rules, only exist so long as we can enforce them.

 

[TylerH]

brainstorm, you're confusing rights with entitlements. Rights can't be taken, but not necessarily given. Enlightenments can't be taken, and must be given.

EDIT: Wow, thanks spell-checker. "Enlightenments" is supposed to be "entitlements."

 

[JaredJames]

Now, you can still argue that internet isn't a basic need the way food and water are, but the question is whether government may deny support of internet service as a means to levy general censorship of free speech. It seems to me that any democratic government has the responsibility to provide some form of access to public discourse for all citizens. Otherwise, how can individuals have equal access to voicing their views publicly? Stand on a soapbox in public? At this point in online-discourse, I would personally find it curtailment of my democratic participation to have internet access unavailable. How many users of online forums wouldn't?

Your freedom of speech only grants you the right not to be 'gagged' by the government if you will. It does not give you the right of access to any forum you like - whether that forum is the street, the internet or the white house.

 

[brainstorm]

Of course it does, it means the government can't stop those things happening. You have a right to them and the government can't take them away.

If you are charged with a crime, SOMEONE has the responsibility to provide you with a jury trial. No one is allowed to try and convict a suspect without offering them a jury trial.

Yes, they can charge what they like. That's the whole point of having a number of companies - competition prevents you being over charged and exploited. If you only have the one you get a monopoly - which is where regulation comes in.

Well, it's not completely true that competition necessarily prevents consumers from being exploited. E.g. if consumers generally exhibit irrational consumption behavior, they could make it possible for providers to exploit them by failing to switch providers for rational reasons. Other examples are also possible but the point is when should government make it a point to ensure free-market rationality and/or regulate economic activity against exploitation?

It was an illegal act. That has nothing to do with it not being returned to the "colonial owners".

It wasn't illegal in the sense of a universal right to self-governance.

That is a very naively written paragraph. In war, there are absolutely no rights. We only have "war rights" now because the powers that be gave them to us. The rules of war only exist because those in power said they should.

That's true, but the premise of war-rights is that no single waring party could be powerful enough to escape judgment following the war. Therefore, they would act according to reasonable standards of war. I suppose this would not be the case for a waring party that had to continue fighting to the death against oppressive force that suppresses reason. This gets into the philosophy of Christianity where oppressive powers can destroy holiness itself. I don't use the word, "holiness," btw to preach religion but just to refer to the idea of ultimate legitimacy.

If you remove those who rule and grant said rules / rights, you get rid of the rules / rights too.

It depends on whether you regard rules/rights as natural and universal or culturally relative to an arbitrary ruling authority. You shouldn't state this as an absolute when you are clearly promoting relative authority.

Here's an example, in the past the order to "give no quarter" could be issued. It meant to kill all those you come across, not sparing anyone. Now however, it is illegal to issue that order - because the powerful nations agreed it should be.

But it could be enforced by anyone with the power to enforce it if they so chose, no?

If those nations are no longer there with their armies to enforce those rules, there is no one to stop the order being given.

There is never anyone to stop an order being given (or followed) except for the individual giving or following the order. All ruling authorities can do is attempt to induce commanders and commandees to resist committing illegal and/or unethical actions. Ultimately the consequences of actions are born by their bearers, no?

Rights, as with all laws/rules, only exist so long as we can enforce them.

Rights can also be claimed against those who refuse to recognize them. Invoked rights may still be disrespected, but the hope is that history will record the willful disregard of rights and hold the abuser accountable. The problem is when history is interpreted through false assumptions as is currently the case with holding Blair or other elected officials accountable for the actions of soldiers. I don't want to hijack the thread, but soldiers who act on illegal/unethical premises don't have the right to defer accountability to those with higher rank, even though the power exists to enforce that supposed right. This is a slightly different issue than unenforced rights, but it speaks to the issue of universal (il)legitimacy of rights-claims on the basis of reason and not the arbitrary authority of politics du jour.

 

[JaredJames]

brainstorm, you're confusing rights with entitlements. Rights can't be taken, but not necessarily given. Enlightenments can't be taken, and must be given.

Again, rights only hold so long as there are people to enforce them.

We have human rights because the powers that be sat down and agreed on what all humans should be granted. But, if there is no one to enforce those rights then they cease to exist.

An example of this would be a person rights whilst under arrest. When it came to terror suspects the UK government wanted to extend the holding period to 28 days. But, the European courts prevented it as it was in breach of the suspects human rights.
Now, if the European courts weren't there, the UK government could have done it.

If the US courts and people stopped defending their rights, the government could start taking them away.

The only reason we say "a person has a right to X" (particularly with war time rights) is because we currently have the power to do so. If we didn't have the power, then it really wouldn't make much difference.

 

[JaredJames]

If you are charged with a crime, SOMEONE has the responsibility to provide you with a jury trial. No one is allowed to try and convict a suspect without offering them a jury trial.

Only under current law.

It wasn't illegal in the sense of a universal right to self-governance.

Really? They committed treason.

Regardless, what is this "universal right" you speak of? Universal to who? What country A sees as a right isn't necessarily what country B sees as a right.

That's true, but the premise of war-rights is that no single waring party could be powerful enough to escape judgment following the war. Therefore, they would act according to reasonable standards of war. I suppose this would not be the case for a waring party that had to continue fighting to the death against oppressive force that suppresses reason. This gets into the philosophy of Christianity where oppressive powers can destroy holiness itself. I don't use the word, "holiness," btw to preach religion but just to refer to the idea of ultimate legitimacy.

Again, 'reasonable' as outlined by who? It's all about the most powerful imposing these on others.

It depends on whether you regard rules/rights as natural and universal or culturally relative to an arbitrary ruling authority. You shouldn't state this as an absolute when you are clearly promoting relative authority.

Universal rights are irrelevant if a person/power doesn't recognise them. You can claim everyone has the right to food, but if the dominant power disagrees then that's all that matters. Rights are based on morals and ethics at the time of writing.

But it could be enforced by anyone with the power to enforce it if they so chose, no?

Correct.

There is never anyone to stop an order being given (or followed) except for the individual giving or following the order. All ruling authorities can do is attempt to induce commanders and commandees to resist committing illegal and/or unethical actions. Ultimately the consequences of actions are born by their bearers, no?

There's no one to stop it being given, but there are consequences for issuing it - bad ones - go to prison for genocide bad. That's the whole idea.

I may feel issuing the order is acceptable, and my right to do so as the victor. You may feel it is unacceptable. If I am more powerful than you, there's nothing you can do. But, if you are more powerful than me you can do things to stop it.

 

[TylerH]

I don't know the sociology definition of a right, if there it one, but there's also schools of thought that consider rights to be absolute. Personally, I tend to be an absolutist. By the absolute view, the fact a right is unprotected, has no bearing on the fact it is a right.

This was the opinion of the "powers that sat down and agreed on what all humans should be granted."

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

[JaredJames]

I don't know the sociology definition of a right, if there it one, but there's also schools of thought that consider rights to be absolute. Personally, I tend to be an absolutist. By the absolute view, the fact a right is unprotected, has no bearing on the fact it is a right.

This was the opinion of the "powers that sat down and agreed on what all humans should be granted."

A perfect example you have given. If there is no one to uphold the constitution, it really doesn't make much difference.

What you see as a right now, wasn't necessarily 20, 50, 100, 500 years ago and may not be over the next decade or century. We create the rights, we enforce them. There's no such thing as a 'god given right' in this respect.

I'm not going further with this as it's off topic. I shan't be replying to this particular discussion any further.

So far as the internet goes, none of our current rights grant us access to it.

 

[brainstorm]

Only under current law.

You're mixing up debates. The point of the right to jury-trial was that the government has the responsibility to PROVIDE a jury-trial, not just protect you from having it taken away from you (since you wouldn't have it in the first place).

Really? They committed treason.

Treason is relative violation of authoritarian loyalty. It is not an absolute rights-violation. Sovereigns don't have an inalienable right to the submission of loyal subjects.

Regardless, what is this "universal right" you speak of? Universal to who? What country A sees as a right isn't necessarily what country B sees as a right.

You assume national-relativism. What basis do you have for assuming that rights are relative to national sovereignty? What about the sovereignty of universal reason? Can't sovereign authorities be wrong by higher reason?

Again, 'reasonable' as outlined by who? It's all about the most powerful imposing these on others.

Reason is demonstrated in good-faith dispute between parties seeking a universally valid resolution. If reason was culturally relative, how would it be possible for any two reasonable parties to come to a reasonable agreement without one being indoctrinated into the other's culture first?

Universal rights are irrelevant if a person/power doesn't recognise them. You can claim everyone has the right to food, but if the dominant power disagrees then that's all that matters. Rights are based on morals and ethics at the time of writing.

When power comes into conflict with reason, it becomes corrupt power instead of legitimate authority. Power has to legitimate itself to avoid overthrow. How long can an oppressive authority maintain functional power before it becomes undermined by, if no one else, its own agents? People universally resist illegitimacy in favor of legitimacy because they are aware of it on some level, even when they are trying to deny it.

There's no one to stop it being given, but there are consequences for issuing it - bad ones - go to prison for genocide bad. That's the whole idea.

Only because there is an ideology that commanders are accountable for the actions of others, regardless of those others' actual responsibility in the situation. This is due to a culture of authoritarianism that has been and ultimately will be recognized as illegitimate. It's just that currently, it has strong ideological foothold in everyday culture. If you think about it, though, it does not make sense to protect people who are responsible for ethical abuses just because their rank is lower than the person ranked as their commander. Isn't each individual ultimately responsible for her/his own actions insofar as s/he has the ability to choose how to act, whether on the basis of orders or otherwise?

I may feel issuing the order is acceptable, and my right to do so as the victor. You may feel it is unacceptable. If I am more powerful than you, there's nothing you can do. But, if you are more powerful than me you can do things to stop it.

That's a bully's logic. But besides, there is power in resisting power. People are too quick to assume that power flows unidirectionally and that the world is divided into the powerful and the powerless. Power doesn't work that way. Just because someone defines an order as acceptable doesn't mean it was - but the irony of debating it is the implication that the person acting on the order didn't have the power to choose not to. That is the power that authoritarians want to deny because they rely on people choosing to follow orders. Why? Because they are POWERLESS to command without people CHOOSING to follow their orders. This is why so much violence has to be used to intimidate soldiers into following orders. If they didn't have the choice to disobey, there would be no reason to intimidate them. The ultimate power lies in the hands of the soldiers.

 

[JaredJames]

You're mixing up debates. The point of the right to jury-trial was that the government has the responsibility to PROVIDE a jury-trial, not just protect you from having it taken away from you (since you wouldn't have it in the first place).

Bingo. No government to do so = no jury trial unless someone else steps into provide it.

That's a bully's logic.

Welcome to the world. Big, powerful countries impose rules on other countries.

Your freedom of speech right is just that. It does not grant you the right of access to ways to broadcast/promote your speech. It does however, ensure the government can't block your access to those services if you want it (certain legal areas aside).

 

[russ_watters]

But when the service is provided by monopoly, you have the right not to be exploited. Competitive markets supposedly protect consumers against abusive pricing and contracts, which is why monopolies are supposed to be publicly regulated; i.e. to prevent exploitation of the monopoly position.

I don't see what this has to do with the issue.

So how does that apply to the right to a speedy and public trial by jury? What about the right to be notified of charges against you or the right to a public defender?

These are still part of a negative right: the right to a fair trial is the right not to be artibtrarily and capriciously persecuted.

But are the providers entitled to exploit you in the provision of services?

I don't see what this has to do with the issue of the thread.

That would make the U.S. revolutionary war an illegal act and the U.S. should be returned to its colonial owners, no?

The revolutionary war was most certainly an illegal act: everyone involved committed treason against Britain. That doesn't mean I think the US should be returned to status as a British colony. A human right to revolt would supercede national law, so something can be illegal and yet be a human right...but that's kind of a messy line of thought - and you're mixing together the two issues and making a mess of it.

It was my impression that people have the right to overthrow a government by the least violent/destructive means possible. If the government refuses to be accountable to reasonable standards of legitimacy, what other option would you have but to overthrow it?

None.

Nonsense. You think that if a revolution is going on, people have no duty to respect each others' rights? If you classify the situation as a war, people still can argue wartime rights. Besides, who says that there aren't certain universal rights that are independent of revolution or any other social state of affairs?

Again, I'm not saying it is right or wrong, I'm just saying it happens. You're arguing against reality here, not against me.

 

[russ_watters]

Not some food in particular, but if a government has the means to provide people with food who would otherwise suffer from malnutrition, why wouldn't the government have the responsibility to provide that food?

Interesting that you used the word "responsibility" here, not "right".

The so-called "entitlements" (we do have Social Security and Medicare, plus welfare and unemployment compensation) can certainly be justified under that logic, but that does not make them rights. [edit: I see this has already been pointed out...]

It's been my perception that people slap the lable "rights" on things like healthcare to try to short-circuit logical debate about the issue. An awful lot of the healthcare debates both here and in the public forum went that way.

 

[russ_watters]

If those nations are no longer there with their armies to enforce those rules, there is no one to stop the order being given.

Rights, as with all laws/rules, only exist so long as we can enforce them.

Ie, our enemies in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan enjoy sawing the heads off civilian kidnapping victims and POWs. These acts were made illegal by the Geneva convention, but we're unable to enforce the rules.

It sounds like I need to put this disclaimer on every post now (not for you): Again, I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's the reality of how it works.

 

[russ_watters]

In an effort to keep this thread focused...

It is easy to say that the government shouldn't be doing these things when it is a government we don't like, but what about when it is a government we do like? Lincoln was by definition a traitor because he suspended certain rights during the Civil war (and, in fact, we now have laws that make it legal to do similar things). Yet at the same time he is revered by many (including me) for successfully freeing the slaves and keeping the union together. The treason part is typically ignored because I think it is difficult if not impossible to reconcile the two either logically or emotionally. So for people such as myself who recognize the two issues, we just have to allow them to be, without reconciliation. I'm not saying it's right or wrong and neither is this Doublethink. I'm just saying it happened - and I'm glad it did!

 

[JaredJames]

Ie, our enemies in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan enjoy sawing the heads off civilian kidnapping victims and POWs. These acts were made illegal by the Geneva convention, but we're unable to enforce the rules.

It sounds like I need to put this disclaimer on every post now (not for you): Again, I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's the reality of how it works.

In an effort to keep this thread focused...

It is easy to say that the government shouldn't be doing these things when it is a government we don't like, but what about when it is a government we do like? Lincoln was by definition a traitor because he suspended certain rights during the Civil war (and, in fact, we now have laws that make it legal to do similar things). Yet at the same time he is revered by many (including me) for successfully freeing the slaves and keeping the union together. The treason part is typically ignored because I think it is difficult if not impossible to reconcile the two either logically or emotionally. So for people such as myself who recognize the two issues, we just have to allow them to be, without reconciliation. I'm not saying it's right or wrong and neither is this Doublethink. I'm just saying it happened - and I'm glad it did!

I think these two sum it up nicely.

Now so far as the internet goes, let's break it down a bit. For those who believe it is / should be a right, do you believe it is so under a current granted right (ie it is implied by freedom of speech or the like) or do you believe it is a right in itself?

 

[WhoWee]

Interesting that you used the word "responsibility" here, not "right".

The so-called "entitlements" (we do have Social Security and Medicare, plus welfare and unemployment compensation) can certainly be justified under that logic, but that does not make them rights. [edit: I see this has already been pointed out...]

It's been my perception that people slap the lable "rights" on things like healthcare to try to short-circuit logical debate about the issue. An awful lot of the healthcare debates both here and in the public forum went that way.

I'd like to add that Social Security, Medicare, and unemployment (originally) require(d) a contribution in the form of a payroll deduction. The beneficiary paid into the system - had a vested interest. That is not a correct description of the systems at this time.

 

[WhoWee]

Is access to the Internet a universal human right that should be recognized by the United Nations? *This*question,*buzzing around the world this week, is certainly one that I hadn’t thought of at length until now, so I posed it to … http://virtualnavigator.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/is-internet-access-a-human-right-reflections-in-the-wake-of-the-egyptian-protests/" http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=virtualnavigator.wordpress.com&blog=11498882&post=503&subd=virtualnavigator&ref=&feed=1

More...

Under this definition, I would say no.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights-human/
"Human rights are international norms that help to protect all people everywhere from severe political, legal, and social abuses. Examples of human rights are the right to freedom of religion, the right to a fair trial when charged with a crime, the right not to be tortured, and the right to engage in political activity."
The people in Egypt were not prohibited from engaging in political activity - they just couldn't use their social media. If it happened in the US - perhaps a class action suit could be filed?

I also looked through the United Nation's website regarding human rights.
http://www.un.org/en/rights/index.shtml


I found this piece - the topics of the paper are specified. The concern of the UN seems to be "the diversity of languages" and "the diversity of people of different abilities".
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/pi1869.doc.htm
"The meeting will address five main themes: reaching the next billion; promoting cyber security and trust; managing critical Internet resources; taking stock and the way forward; and emerging issues -- the Internet of tomorrow. In addition to plenary sessions on these themes, there will be open meetings and thematic workshops to discuss specific issues and share best practices."

 

[D H]

No it is not a human right. No one has to pay $50/month for a human right. Especially something that is purely commercial.

To quote Russ, "Errrrr...REBOOT!"

The right to a free press does not mean the government has to supply me with a printing press. Freedom of religion does not mean the government has to build a church for me and my flock. Freedom of speech does not mean the government has to supply me with a bully pulpit. The right to petition your congresscritter does not mean the government has to buy me a plane ticket to Washington.

A right is a limitation on what the government can do. The concept of rights has been twisted as of late into meaning a requirement on what the government must do. The US Constitution, at least, is rather clear in this regard: The first amendment does not start with "Congress shall make laws ...". It instead starts with "Congress shall make no law ..."

In the sense that a right is a restriction upon what governments can do, I would say that free and unfettered access to the internet is a right, one that I may well have to pay a non-government supplier $50/month to obtain.

 

[AlephZero]

The entire concept of "rights" is a human invention. My position is that thy entire concept is a straw man. There is no such thing as "rights" to anything whatever. The only purpose of the concept of "rights" is to appeal on people's vague idea that "equality is a good thing", and it usually translates as "I think I should have more of something and other people should have less of it".

The US constitution is no more relevant to this debate than any other "holy book". It's truths are only self-evident if you happen to believe they are true.

 

[JaredJames]

In the sense that a right is a restriction upon what governments can do, I would say that free and unfettered access to the internet is a right, one that I may well have to pay a non-government supplier $50/month to obtain.

We have two separate issues as I see it.

1. The right to internet access - does an individual have a right to internet access (the government can't stop it without good cause - there are crimes that can get you blocked from using the internet in the UK)?

2. The rights relating to internet access - does an individual have a right to unrestricted internet access by the government (as you describe above, criminal issues aside)?

Now I agree with both, in that the government shouldn't impose restrictions without due cause (as China do). But this is completely separate to "it should be provided for free".

The entire concept of "rights" is a human invention. My position is that thy entire concept is a straw man. There is no such thing as "rights" to anything whatever. The only purpose of the concept of "rights" is to appeal on people's vague idea that "equality is a good thing", and it usually translates as "I think I should have more of something and other people should have less of it".

The US constitution is no more relevant to this debate than any other "holy book". It's truths are only self-evident if you happen to believe they are true.

That my friend is my exact thinking on the matter (as you can probably note from my posts). Which is why I dislike the whole rights (especially human rights) debate.

 

[brainstorm]

Bingo. No government to do so = no jury trial unless someone else steps into provide it.

There is a government of checks and balances among conflicting powers. If one power tries, convicts, and punishes people without a fair trial, other powers will become hostile toward the abusive one. People try to stay friends or at least keep the peace with malevolent others, but ultimately there will always be a potential conflict and it's just a matter of time before it emerges into an active process of resolution.

Welcome to the world. Big, powerful countries impose rules on other countries.

But you make it sound like that's where it ends. Powerful oppressive forces can maintain stability despite illegitimacy for a while but known illegitimacy brews increasing resistance. There is no such thing a permanently sustainable corruption.

Your freedom of speech right is just that. It does not grant you the right of access to ways to broadcast/promote your speech. It does however, ensure the government can't block your access to those services if you want it (certain legal areas aside).

Right, but that also means that the government mustn't allow private parties to block access to transmission media when no adequate substitute is available. Thus the government can recognize internet as a univeral medium of communication but it could say that cable providers don't have a responsibility to allow universal access because people can use phone lines, etc. In other words, the government can prevent people from blockading each others' rights by breaking up monopoly (or oligopoly) control where it is functioning to curtail rights.

I don't see what this has to do with the issue. These are still part of a negative right: the right to a fair trial is the right not to be artibtrarily and capriciously persecuted. I don't see what this has to do with the issue of the thread. The revolutionary war was most certainly an illegal act: everyone involved committed treason against Britain. That doesn't mean I think the US should be returned to status as a British colony. A human right to revolt would supercede national law, so something can be illegal and yet be a human right...but that's kind of a messy line of thought - and you're mixing together the two issues and making a mess of it. None. Again, I'm not saying it is right or wrong, I'm just saying it happens. You're arguing against reality here, not against me.

It's not a messy line of thought, or rather it is a very important mess that has been created by authoritarianism, first in the form of divine rights of kings and later as national sovereignty. The issue is whether human authority can ever be absolutely relative to its own arbitrary sovereign. Are sovereigns accountable to higher reason, or can they claim an absolute monopoly over reason and truth from their own perspective. Can a king claim that killing is ethical when he decrees it, or is their a higher moral/reason that makes killing unethical regardless of who legitimates it and how? Maybe a more clear cut example would be if 1+1 could = 3 because a king says so.

Interesting that you used the word "responsibility" here, not "right".

One person's right is another person's responsibility to respect that right, no?

The so-called "entitlements" (we do have Social Security and Medicare, plus welfare and unemployment compensation) can certainly be justified under that logic, but that does not make them rights. [edit: I see this has already been pointed out...]

The question would be whether these bureaucratic administrations have the right to systematically exclude people from benefits without undermining their fundamental rights. If people have the right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness - does that mean they also have the right to SOME form of economic access, however defined?

It's been my perception that people slap the lable "rights" on things like healthcare to try to short-circuit logical debate about the issue. An awful lot of the healthcare debates both here and in the public forum went that way.

That's possible. There should be open critical discussion without obfuscation and bullying on any issue.

Back to the OP: what about the simple fact that if internet connections between family members are broken, those people can go through a lot of emotional stress worrying about what could be happening to their loved ones? Does a government have the responsibility to stop people from blocking communication lines when doing so social isolates people from loved ones? To make it more concrete, if I knew that a person's spouse was trying to call or email them to find out if they're alright during a crisis, is it my right (as police) to block that call/email as a military tactic to bring the rebels to submission?

 

[JaredJames]

Brainstorm, your view is highly idealised and doesn't reflect reality.

The rights granted now only last so long as those who agree to them maintain them. If the UN, European Union etc disappeared along with the governments that support them those rights granted under them do so also (that include human rights). Period. It is only if another government steps in an upholds them that they are maintained.

As a private party, I can prevent you exercising your right to freedom of speech on my property - there is nothing the government can do. That's the end of it.

I pointed out previously, in the UK everyone has the right to a phone line - the cost of installation and any calls are the responsibility of the consumer, not the government. The right only says a company / government cannot block a person getting a phone line and cannot stop you making an emergency services call for free.

Your ability to communicate with family/friends is irrelevant. You are only granted communication for emergency purposes. Any other forms are chargeable to the consumer as they are services provided.

 

[JaredJames]

One person's right is another person's responsibility to respect that right, no?

Precisely. Respect it and only respect it.

The government recognise your right to freedom of speech. They cannot prevent you from exercising it. But, they don't have to help you exercise it either.

You have the right to own a gun (in America). The government can't stop this, but that doesn't mean they have to give out free guns. It simply means they can't stop you buying one. By your logic, the right to protect yourself with a gun implies the government should ensure everyone is equally armed - this is just non-sense.

 

[baywax]

That's like asking if a telephone, cell phones, radio, tv, etc... is a human right. I say no.

Have to sadly agree here Greg and Evo...

clean water is a human right... or at least one should have the right to drink water without paying for it... but they'll have to pay for the filters to clean it...

human rights are a human right... what are they you ask??!

List of human rights:

Article 1

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, color, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offense has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defense.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offense on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offense, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offense was committed.

Article 12

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Article 20
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right to equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favorable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favorable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29

(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

This was the UN list of human rights laws that safeguards each and every individual. However, there are many places and many instances where these human rights are blatantly ignored. These human rights need no declaration to be drafted and passed. These are basic rights that every one, everywhere should follow. The greed for power and the false pride of begin better than the other, makes one forget the rights of others. Before anyone tries to violate the fundamental human rights of any individual, one should spare a thought, that the same thing could soon happen to them too. Hope this article on list of human rights issues has helped you understand your rights as an individual.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/list-of-human-rights.html

 

[D H]

clean water is a human right... or at least one should have the right to drink water without paying for it...

I've never lived anywhere where water is free. There is always a fee, and that's a good thing. We have enough problems with water shortages during dry summers as it is.

List of human rights: [Long list elided]

That is ridiculously long, and I doubt any government fully complies with it. There are too many "government shall pass laws ..." kinds of statements in that list. I like the way the US Constitution does it: "Congress shall pass no laws ..."

Rights are not things that governments provide for people. Rights are things that governments cannot take away from people.