Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[pattylou]

So why did you bring it up?

Ummm... I didn't have a problem with Iraq. I still don't.

Bush did.

Iraq is not part of the US. Our soldiers ... *are.* I brought up taking our *soldiers* into an illegal war. I would *not* sell my children into this sort of twilight-zone mentality of it being ok to fight when you haven't been crossed in the first place. Our military, now, unfortunately, has a recent record of this behavior. I see no honor in joining the military at present, (although I hold my father's service in the highest regard. World War II was a war "worth fighting" if any war ever was. ) The invasion of Iraq isn't, wasn't, and never will be. It was a colossal mistake. This has to do with our actions, not with the sovereign nation of Iraq.

(... this isn't rocket science...)

 

[Townsend]

I am not opposed to some aspects of the military.
The question is, is it ok to sell kids on the military *now?*

There are US kids over in Iraq being killed right now! Wheather you agree with the war has nothing to do with you wanting to be over there to help out your fellow American who has is life on the line!

What is the first thing that comes to mind at the moment, when you think "military?"
For most people it's 'Iraq.'

If what you are considering is wheather or not to join then it should be about what you will be able to contribute and what you will be able to get out it. Not wheather you agree with the Iraq war.

Incidentally, why are you being so harsh towards me? My dad was at the battle of the bulge. I have no particular opinion on the military as a necessary part of state. It's clear that Bush sees the military as his little toy soldiers. *that* IO have a problem with. But let';s save all that for another thread and stick to the OP.

You are the one who brought up the Iraq war, NOT me...go back and look. I take offense when people denigrate a large and important part of my life with badly formed opininions. I think you would too.

Do you acknowledge that the invasion of Iraq does not embody the ideals of "America" quoted above? Do you acknowledge that our military presence in Iraq is a major mental link for most americans, when they think "military?"
Can you then understand why sending naive children into the military, will promote the idea to them, that GWB's vision of the world is more important than the truth of the matter? This is why it is wrong.
Do you understand that?

Yes, no, no... and I understand completely. You are the one who doesn't understand people reasons for joining the military.

I never once thought about joining or leaving the military because I disagreed with the whatever the current president is doing. I cared about what I had to offer to the military and what the military had to offer me. I know what it is like to work in a shop when your short half the manpower you should have. I understand what it means to help out someone else when there is no reward. I, like most sailors, had a love/hate relationship with the military.

What do you really have to base your opinion on?

 

[Pengwuino]

Since when did adults become your property? Is slavery still legal? Also, this war is not illegal, nothing exists saying a country has to follow the UN's view on reality seeing as how the UN is one of the most corrupt organizations on Earth. The invasion of Iraq is obviously not worth it if you see it through brainwashed anti-american eyes.

Of course, I'm sure you would never shed a tear for the 300,000 people who were murdered under Saddam because you don't believe in the American ideals of freedom and liberty... right?

 

[Townsend]

Ummm... I didn't have a problem with Iraq. I still don't.
Bush did.
Iraq is not part of the US. Our soldiers ... *are.* I brought up taking our *soldiers* into an illegal war. I would *not* sell my children into this sort of twilight-zone mentality of it being ok to fight when you haven't been crossed in the first place. Our military, now, unfortunately, has a recent record of this behavior. I see no honor in joining the military at present, (although I hold my father's service in the highest regard. World War II was a war "worth fighting" if any war ever was. ) The invasion of Iraq isn't, wasn't, and never will be. It was a colossal mistake. This has to do with our actions, not with the sovereign nation of Iraq.
(... this isn't rocket science...)

That is pathetic at best...

A person’s service in the military has NOTHING to do with the current politics of the world and equating the two is just plain BS...

Your values are not inline with American values or the ones you listed. What about joining the military to help out your fellow Americans? You can hate the war in Iraq but not joining the military is not going to end the war and it most certainly will not save anyone life!

 

[pattylou]

Exactly what evidence do you have other hten your own personal hatred for him that indicates Bush thinks of the military as "litlte toy soldiers"?

I'd start with the fact that he never refers to fallen sons by name, to their parents.

He de-personifies them into nameless "war heros" or "loved ones."

If you can talk about my Rachel by name, then I know you recognize that she was a person as much as any of us. If you can only marginally talk about "my loss" or my dead "child" I know that you are unwilling to fully face the fact that Rachel had to suffer through a life-threatening operation, that she ultimately died, and that this is a greater physical challenge than you or I have ever faced.

Bush's abilities have been very clear on this score. He does not recognize the personhood of the boys that have died in this war.

 

[Townsend]

Bush's abilities have been very clear on this score. He does not recognize the personhood of the boys that have died in this war.

It seems you have a lot more in common with Bush than you thought.

 

[Pengwuino]

Wow... so you're evidence is basically "im right, he's bad". I say this because he has numberous closed door conversations with individual families of soldiers who died and I HAVE heard him talk about people by name. If that's the actions of someone who doesn't see these people as human beings, then I don't know what does. Do you want him to set up funeral plans for every single soldier who died? How bout for everyone who dies in every war on earth? What can convince an ideolog...

 

[pattylou]

That is pathetic at best...

A person’s service in the military has NOTHING to do with the current politics of the world and equating the two is just plain BS...

You didn't answer my questions. I will not accept being on the receiving end of your attack. Answer my questions if you wish to continue a dialog. If you don't wish to consider a dialog, then recognize that you are closing yourself off from American sentiment, on what you seem to think is a very important matter.

 

[Townsend]

You didn't answer my questions. I will not accept being on the receiving end of your attack. Answer my questions if you wish to continue a dialog. If you don't wish to consider a dialog, then recognize that you are closing yourself off from American sentiment, on what you seem to think is a very important matter.

Show me what question of yours I left unanswered.

 

[Gokul43201]

Out of curiosity, what is the official statement that is conveyed to a spouse/child/parent/other family member of someone who dies a collateral death ? Or is there no such statement ?

 

[pattylou]

Wow... so you're evidence is basically "im right, he's bad". I say this because he has numberous closed door conversations with individual families of soldiers who died and I HAVE heard him talk about people by name. If that's the actions of someone who doesn't see these people as human beings, then I don't know what does. Do you want him to set up funeral plans for every single soldier who died? How bout for everyone who dies in every war on earth? What can convince an ideolog...

If you can show where he has referred to fallen soldiers by their name to their parents (rather than for political gain), then I'll gladly take back that piece of evidence. Incidentally, you'll also be restoring something of my faith in the basic decency of the guy.

I haven't seen such behavior, not once.

Can you show me where he has ever talked to a parent about their killed child, by name?

 

[Townsend]

Out of curiosity, what is the official statement that is conveyed to a spouse/child/parent/other family member of someone who dies a collateral death ? Or is there no such statement ?

I don't know but I hope it at least mentions what happened in which case it shouldn't be some rubber stamp letter along with a flag.

 

[pattylou]

It seems you have a lot more in common with Bush than you thought.

We have a lot in common. Why did you think I thought otherwise? And I have a lot in common with you, as well.

 

[Pengwuino]

(rather than for political gain)

What a cop out. If I point to any speech, you'll say its political gain and of course, closed door talks with parents don't exactly get recorded. Why waste my time with such ideological brainwashing...

 

[Pengwuino]

Out of curiosity, what is the official statement that is conveyed to a spouse/child/parent/other family member of someone who dies a collateral death ? Or is there no such statement ?

You mean like.. during a training accident? There probably is a statement... not sure anyone would know it off-hand.

Well I'm not wasting anymore time on this insanity-fest (not directed at you gokul). I think this kinda crap is the reason I vote Republican.

 

[Townsend]

We have a lot in common. Why did you think I thought otherwise? And I have a lot in common with you, as well.

You certainly don't have the decency to think about something beside politics long enough to realize there are good reasons to join the military even if it is during an unjust war.

That is a big enough difference that I don't we are anything alike.

 

[kat]

I'd start with the fact that he never refers to fallen sons by name, to their parents.

An outright lie or you're seriously misinformed.

 

[pattylou]

You are the one who doesn't understand people reasons for joining the military.

I think this is the basis of our disagreement.

I am speaking as a parent. You are speaking as an adult who would/did serve in the military.

I am talking about the "rightness" of me *saying* to my daughters "Joining the military is a good thing." Such a statement would be wrong for me to make. Me advising my kids to join the military is *not* a good thing, because our military's actions are serving primarily to create cost and loss for us in every area.

But, this is entirely different from my daughters coming to their own decision (at adulthood) about what is right and wrong in this regard. If they expressed deep convictions about the rightness of joining the military I would support them in that decision.

The original post was *not* "Is it wrong for kids to join the military?" Rather, the original post was "Is it immoral to *sell* kids on the military?"

It's two different questions. I realize you don't have children, and further that you have not buried any. I expect you recognize that your role as father will be different than your role as independent adult.

(Thank you for answering my questions.)

 

[pattylou]

An outright lie or you're seriously misinformed.

I'm always happy to be shown otherwise.

I'm talking about his conversations to parents. Prove me wrong.

 

[pattylou]

You certainly don't have the decency to think about something beside politics long enough to realize there are good reasons to join the military even if it is during an unjust war.

That is a big enough difference that I don't we are anything alike.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel otherwise.

 

[pattylou]

What a cop out. If I point to any speech, you'll say its political gain and of course, closed door talks with parents don't exactly get recorded. Why waste my time with such ideological brainwashing...

It's not a copout. Would you like me to find some discussions between him and parents?

 

[Townsend]

I think this is the basis of our disagreement.
I am speaking as a parent. You are speaking as an adult who would/did serve in the military.
I am talking about the "rightness" of me *saying* to my daughters "Joining the military is a good thing." Such a statement would be wrong for me to make. Me advising my kids to join the military is *not* a good thing, because our military's actions are serving primarily to create cost and loss for us in every area.

No parent wants to lose their kids for any reason the least of which is war. Therefore, I couldn't blame someone for not wanting their kids to join the military for that reason. However, there are people’s kids that are going to go over there and will die regardless of whether or not your kids join the military.

The fact of the matter is that it is much harder for the men and women, many of whom are but kids, in Iraq to do their jobs if they do not have the manpower they need to get the job done. There is a chance that if more soldiers were available, there would be fewer US casualties...

That is the reason that I believe we need to set politics aside on this issue...it is not about supporting the war. It is about supporting your fellow American who is likely in Iraq by duress.

 

[Moonbear]

Wow, this thread got off-topic pretty quickly.

In reading the opening post, I'd say it's wrong to sell them on the military using the reasons given...travel the world, get an education...

If someone enlists for those reasons, and not out of a sense of duty to their country, or desire to protect the country, then they are being misled regarding that enlistment. You don't need to enlist in the military to see the world or get an education. I think it's actually dangerous to the military and other enlistees to have people joining for the wrong reasons. They're not signing up for a Club Med vacation, and will have a lot of trouble adjusting if that's what they are expecting.

 

[Townsend]

If someone enlists for those reasons, and not out of a sense of duty to their country, or desire to protect the country, then they are being misled regarding that enlistment. You don't need to enlist in the military to see the world or get an education. I think it's actually dangerous to the military and other enlistees to have people joining for the wrong reasons. They're not signing up for a Club Med vacation, and will have a lot of trouble adjusting if that's what they are expecting.

That much I would agree with...

I do wish the recruiters were straight with kids instead of feeding them the crap they do.

 

[Townsend]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel otherwise.

I'm sorry for saying that and I don't really mean it. It's just that this issue is somewhat personal for me as you can imagine. I still value your opinion as a fellow American and I value your opinion as a person as well.

Regards

 

[Entropy]

I don't approve of military advertizement to kids in public schools, or to people under 21 for that matter. I'm aloud to die for my country but not die of alcohol poisoning?

 

[Townsend]

I don't approve of military advertizement to kids in public schools, or to people under 21 for that matter. I'm aloud to die for my country but not die of alcohol poisoning?

At one time drinking was allowed on base by all military persons who were 18 and older. I also think that if your old enough to die in combat you should be old enough to drink alcohol.

 

[pattylou]

I'm sorry for saying that and I don't really mean it. It's just that this issue is somewhat personal for me as you can imagine. I still value your opinion as a fellow American and I value your opinion as a person as well.
Regards

Thank you Townsend.

I respect your choice. I live near Port Hueneme and Pt. Mugu and so we have a good number of military around here. Some wives were in my Micro class (trying to get into the nursing program, etc). Dear Husband is a fighter jet fanatic (loves thiunderbirds, blue angels, etc, and flies Falcon virtual missions every thursday with a world-wide squadron.) (I know, that kind of stuff doesn't count, but at least it shows you that we don't sit around singing Kumbaya all day.)

Father in law worked at Boeing and Honeywell way back when, and both dad and step-dad were in WWII. My great aunt died in the flu pandemic as she treated WWI soldiers overseas.

It's part of man's history, and there's a brotherhood in military service. I understand about giving your life and standing up for your brother. I'd give my life for something I believe in.

I can't *kill* for something I believe in. (At least I hope I can't.) I believe we're *all* brothers. This is probably one area you and I disagree.

I don't think you can separate politics out of it, but I don't mean to give the impression that there is no other motivation for signing on, and I apologize if it came across that way.

Yours,
Patty

 

[BobG]

I think this is the basis of our disagreement.
I am speaking as a parent. You are speaking as an adult who would/did serve in the military.
I am talking about the "rightness" of me *saying* to my daughters "Joining the military is a good thing." Such a statement would be wrong for me to make. Me advising my kids to join the military is *not* a good thing, because our military's actions are serving primarily to create cost and loss for us in every area.
But, this is entirely different from my daughters coming to their own decision (at adulthood) about what is right and wrong in this regard. If they expressed deep convictions about the rightness of joining the military I would support them in that decision.
The original post was *not* "Is it wrong for kids to join the military?" Rather, the original post was "Is it immoral to *sell* kids on the military?"
It's two different questions. I realize you don't have children, and further that you have not buried any. I expect you recognize that your role as father will be different than your role as independent adult.
(Thank you for answering my questions.)

I can understand that completely. I spent 20 years in the Air Force and I'd do it again.

I'm a little less enthusiastic when one of boys starts talking about joining the Army and not that excited about one of my nephews being in Iraq. When my daughter mentioned she was thinking about getting out of the National Guard because she was pregnant, I said I thought that was a pretty good idea.

It doesn't mean joining the military is the wrong decision. It's probably closer to being rational than my idea about little kids that aren't so little anymore.

 

[Cosmo16]

Who was it that said that the military should not be "sold" to people in schools? What the hell is this BS! I am a junior in HS and they are there. They stand there with fliers. WoW! talk about bad people. Why should everybody not be informed about all of their options. And the military is an option for many people.

P.S. Townsend, I believe the drinking age should be 18 for the same reason.