News Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[Ivan Seeking]

If someone enlists for those reasons, and not out of a sense of duty to their country, or desire to protect the country, then they are being misled regarding that enlistment. .

That is my objection. People should understand that the military is for defense [or offense under this administration] and not self improvement. It's a terrible job that somebody has to do, but we would all be better off if no one ever served in any military. It should be sold as nothing more.

 

[moose]

At least we don't have a draft ;)

 

[Townsend]

That is my objection. People should understand that the military is for defense [or offense under this administration] and not self improvement. It's a terrible job that somebody has to do, but we would all be better off if no one ever served in any military. It should be sold as nothing more.

I can understand that... and I would even agree that we need to be honest with people who are joining the military. Something that is clearly not being done.

But that is a whole lot different than

I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.

And you have to keep in mind that times do change even with the military. Today’s military has made a lot of improvements on a whole host of quality of life issues. Better gyms, more accessible off duty education and practically a paradigm shift in core values. Things like hazing and sexual harassment is taken very seriously.

If you take a look at what today’s military is all about you might be surprised at what you find out.

By the time I separated I almost didn't want to leave...and it wasn't just because I had picked up rank so don't assume that's it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The point in part is this: If you want an education, go to school. If you want to travel, travel. If you want a skill, go to a trade school. If you want to offer your life, or possibly end up crippled, blind, in therapy for life, or like one guy that I met that introduced himself every five minutes, all for what the present administration claims is the defense of the nation, fine, but realize that you are doing no less and for no other reason. The rest is fluff and bull. And most people that I've known do not come out of the military with marketable skills. In fact I found a couple of X Navy Nukes sitting next to me in my physics classes. They were no more marketable than I was.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

At least we don't have a draft ;)

In fairness to the soldiers serving in Iraq, we should. How many thousands and thousands of promises - release dates - has Rummy broke in order to support the demand for the war.

 

[revelator]

That's one of the better arguments I've heard in favor of draft.

 

[Cosmo16]

There should not be a draft! That is ridiculous! A draft would only increase deaths, ( due to rushed training), and a give people a very good reason to complain.

 

[Skyhunter]

There should not be a draft! That is ridiculous! A draft would only increase deaths, ( due to rushed training), and a give people a very good reason to complain.

There would be no need to rush their training.

People already have good reasons to complain.

A draft would make the sacrifice for an ill-conceived war be borne by the rich as well as the poor. Kill off a couple of rich white kids in Iraq and then see how much support for the war declines.

 

[Integral]

There would be no need to rush their training.
People already have good reasons to complain.
A draft would make the sacrifice for an ill-conceived war be borne by the rich as well as the poor. Kill off a couple of rich white kids in Iraq and then see how much support for the war declines.

I don't think it would help. The laws will end up have huge loopholes that only require money to get through.

I Have 3 sons in the prime military age (23 - 27) none of them have found it necessary to join. All have managed to complete educations and even find employment in or very close to their chosen fields.

On the other hand, I was 19 in 1969 and had completed my first year of college with a 2.0gpa (yep, I managed to pull it up to that in the final term!) I was out of money and Uncle Sam was drafting anybody that was not in school. My older brother's grades slipped and he had been drafted out of his Junior year at the local university the previous winter.

I had no desire to camp in the jungle or to be shot at by anybody, so in order to have some control over my destiny I enlisted in the US Navy. My hope was to do some traveling and some partying, then after 4yrs I would have the GI Bill to see me through college.

Once in I discovered that what was considered some of the worst possible duty was air craft carriers on the east coast. I volunteered for it... They gave it to me. So after Electronics school in Chicago, I spend over 3 yrs in Caribbean and Mediterranean seas. I achieved my selfish goal of travel in a manner far exceeding any realistic dreams.

Perhaps the biggest payoff of my 4 years service was the electronics training. It has been the core of my employability for the last 30yrs, which has seen only 2 periods of unemployment (4 months each).

Personally I did not care for the military lifestyle. I simply do not have the right outlook on life to do well there. I did my time and I got out. And yes I did complete my first college degree using the GI Bill, I believe that I used every cent available to me.

So I got everything I wanted from the Navy plus something that I did not plan on, a career.

Still in this day and age I am glad that none of my sons have had to follow that path.

If private industry can make job pitches in schools why can't the government? If you are not interested in joining the military, don't. But don't force your choices on your neighbor. For some people that is a good path for others not. But do not block a path just because it is not suitable for you.

 

[Skyhunter]

I don't think it would help. The laws will end up have huge loopholes that only require money to get through.

I agree, the rich and powerful will get to go to the "champagne units".
However, with enhanced communication, a la the internet, it will be harder to cheat with anonymity, like they did in the 60's and 70's. But hey, Bush got away with it, and he only suffered a little bit politically.

I guess that is the benefit of being "born again", all your past sins are washed away. Everyone forgives and forgets about your draft dodging drug using past.

I believe there is true repentance, but it should be accompanied by real penance. Bush in his arrogance is the epitome of someone who used religion to absolve them-self of past trespasses.

What is he going to do for the present ones?

If your born again, do you go to hell twice?

Sorry, just an off topic rant.

A draft today would make the Iraq war "less convenient". The war does not effect enough peoples lives. Not enough Americans share the sacrifice. Why, we even got a tax cut.

 

[loseyourname]

Perhaps those saying we should have a draft because we need more soldiers over there to either alleviate the burden on our current soldiers or make the war directly affect more Americans should enlist and help out - unless, of course, you are too old. I suspect that with all the health problems I've had recently, I probably wouldn't even pass a physical, but even if I could, I wouldn't be enlisting.

 

[Skyhunter]

Perhaps those saying we should have a draft because we need more soldiers over there to either alleviate the burden on our current soldiers or make the war directly affect more Americans should enlist and help out - unless, of course, you are too old. I suspect that with all the health problems I've had recently, I probably wouldn't even pass a physical, but even if I could, I wouldn't be enlisting.

I think that anyone who supports the war should volunteer. Then we won't need a draft.

None of the people making the decisions have combat experience, and most don't even have military experience.

It is easy to have a war when it is not personal.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So I got everything I wanted from the Navy plus something that I did not plan on, a career.

Of course, IIRC, you barely missed going to Vietnam.

 

[Mk]

Although the title is highly decieving, i get what you're saying. Oddly enough my nephew is a marine reservist and let's see..

Mental problems? No.
Alcoholism? No (but then again he drank before even considering the military)
Lack of respect for life? No (and of course that's just your personal opinion)
Brainwashing? Dream on.
Four years of utter boredom? Well he's been pretty bored so far. Oddly enough, he can't wait to go to Iraq but they have been delaying their call-up for i think 18 months or so already.
Flag draped coffins? It's a military, people die, want us to disband it and go back to the stone age?

Whats with all the uninformed ideological rants lately.

And not just people die, they die to preserve America's freedoms and what it stands for, which are freedoms! The same for all nations that have a military. They fight so you can be able to say that they have mental problems, so you can say how much they waste their life. I have some friends as well that can't wait to get back to Iraq. Some of them are happy as clams doing that.

[edited out by myself]
And like Integral's account of his experience in the US Navy, you can get something out of it.

Also Ivan mentioned that people in the military have no respect for life. Have you ever been shot enough times to have almost died? Well, one is good enough for me to get the point. Have you seen a friend perish in a firey explosion? If something like that happened to you, would you not give a sh*t about living? Or would you appreciate life more, give more than you take? Carpe diem? Live like you were dying perhaps?

cult style brainwashing [patriotism]

You just compared patriotism, the love for your country, to cult brainwashing. Love and brainwashing don't mean the same-thing no matter how much you twist it. I wonder if you've ever stayed extended periods of time outside. Have you visited a "third-world" village? A second-world (if there is such a term)? You need a reality check, perhaps love your rich and prosperous life more.

I'd start with the fact that he never refers to fallen sons by name, to their parents.

He's too busy to learn every person's name!

I see no honor in joining the military at present, (although I hold my father's service in the highest regard.

What would your father think if he were alive now about you thinking there is no honor in the military?

The invasion of Iraq isn't, wasn't, and never will be [justified].

This has not been proven as fact, and is only your opinion. You should not hold your opinion as fact.

I think that anyone who supports the war should volunteer. Then we won't need a draft.

There is no draft, it is all voluntary.

None of the people making the decisions have combat experience, and most don't even have military experience.
It is easy to have a war when it is not personal.

Sorry maybe I misread, but there is a ranking system, you start out at the bottom and move to the top. And you would rather have everyone go into combat than stay out of Iraq's business?

:zzz: I still wish you long days, pleasent nights,

Mk

 

[devil-fire]

the difference between advertising for a regular job and for joining the military is the hazards and stresses involved. i can't think of any more hazardous an occupation then the armed forces. i don't like how the armed forces usually tries to pitch enlistment based on 'its great fun and it'll build character' and don't mention post traumatic stress syndrome.

for the army to recruit young people and for it to be morally agreeable in my eyes there should be tests that demonstrate the enlistee's understanding of the potential and likely risks they are signing up for. if they do this already that's great, iv just never heard of it.

i don't think a draft should ever be used in an educated democracy. if people wanted to go fight for their country's foreign agendas then they have the option, otherwise its time to change the education system so people understand why its important they fight.

 

[russ_watters]

Pointless, random, ranting neohippieism. Just wanted to let you all know I'd seen it but won't even bother trying to argue against it. At face value, it should be clear there is no need.

 

[FredGarvin]

I think so. I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.
I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.

Well, I think this happens to be, at best, a huge sweeping statement that has very little basis in truth other than the limited exposure Ivan has had.

So let's see here, we have never seen alcoholism, mental problems or premature deaths ANYWHERE else other than the military? Of course, we don't see people being burried in civilian life on the news every day and they don't get flags, so I guess that's not worth mentioning.

I, like Integral, owe a lot to my stay inthe Army. I saw what combat I did and I did EXACTLY what the commercials said I would do. I travelled, I lived in Germany for 3 years, I made money, I saved enough for college (which my family could not afford) and I made some very good friends that I still am in contact to this day with. Most of all, it also gave me my career. I can not imagine what my life would have been like without my stint. For every person Ivan saw in that VA hospital, I would bet there are 100 that benefitted greatly from their service and 1000 that really could have taken it or left it, but are not traumatized in any way.

This thread reminds me of the idiots who joined the reserves or National Guard for the selfish reasons of some extra money and the GI bill. Oh, you mean I have to do what the government said I may have to do? What they trained me to do? Time to complain and become a concientous objector.

I think this thread is inappropriate at best until Ivan backs up his claims with anything other than his own opinions. Nowhere other than the GD forum would this be tolerated.

 

[Bystander]

1961 --- "... pay any price, bear any burden ..."
1965 --- "Hell no. (They) won't go."

2001 --- No particularly memorable words.
2005 --- The "instant gratification," full diaper lib crowd is right on schedule.

Wonder what math department they're planning on blowing up this time around.

S'pose any mayor in the country is going to be willing to host the democratic convention in '08?

Instead of Cooper-Church what're we going to get? Kennedy-Feinstein? Or, maybe Clinton-Kennedy? Clinton-Kennedy-Feinstein?

Sit through the same snivelling two or three times (the first time was boring as hell), and it's no wonder no one takes libs or dems seriously.

 

[BobG]

I think so. I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.
I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.

Mental problems and alcoholism among military members is about the same as that for the civilian population. It does receive a little more attention in the military because of its cost - 25% of military members that develop mental disorders or came into the service with mental disorders are out of the service within 6 months. Losing the investment in training and experience is more expensive than the treatment. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200303/ai_n9195957

 

[pattylou]

What would your father think if he were alive now about you thinking there is no honor in the military?

We have a picture of my father at (or after) the battle of the bulge. He is completely unrecognizable in the photo.

His sister said to him some years ago "That's not you!" and he replied in a disturbed voice: "War changes you, Lina."

My father would understand my position completely.

 

[alexandra]

You did have a good reason and what you posted is fine by me. What I don't get is why you don't challenge Ivan's points when they are clearly very weak?

The question Ivan asked was as in the subject line above: "Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?" This question invites a response based on opinions rather than on evidence and fact (morality is subjective). My opinion regarding this issue, and I have no facts to back it up, is that yes, it is immoral to sell kids on the military (and, in my opinion, on religion as well). It is immoral because the kids have not had enough life experience to know what they are getting into - they are incapable of making an informed decision about something that is very important because it is going to shape what sort of person they become in the future (it is not relatively harmless advertising, after all, like adverts urging kids to buy a cd or computer game). My personal, subjectively-defined morals go against training kids to be killers. That is what people are trained to do in the military - by definition. Perhaps I'm wrong about this last statement? I think not - but I am sure people will let me know if I am wrong
alex

 

[alexandra]

This thread reminds me of the idiots who joined the reserves or National Guard for the selfish reasons of some extra money and the GI bill. Oh, you mean I have to do what the government said I may have to do? What they trained me to do? Time to complain and become a concientous objector.

In my opinion (note the word 'opinion'), this is exactly what Ivan was getting at: advertising the military as a way of gaining an education, traveling, etc (rather than as an institution that involves risking your life and learning how to kill others in a war situation) is exactly what leads to what you call 'the idiots' and their 'selfish reasons'. They are not idiots precisely because recruitment advertising is not honest: they were not told they would be required to do these things. They were promised a holiday and a free ride!

 

[Townsend]

That is what people are trained to do in the military - by definition. Perhaps I'm wrong about this last statement? I think not - but I am sure people will let me know if I am wrong
alex

The only gun I ever fired in the line of duty was a .22 caliber rifle at a test range. I was trained to be an aircraft mechanic and to be teach people coming out of boot camp how to be aircraft mechanics. After over 8 years I could never see another jet and I wouldn't mind it at all...it's just not my cup of tea. I could have easily made good living from my training and experience if it was something I would have liked to do. There are thousands of jobs in the military that have no killing as a part of your training. For example, the Navy corpsmen are trained to save lives, not kill.

Those are some facts for you to consider while forming your opinion.

 

[Townsend]

In my opinion (note the word 'opinion'), this is exactly what Ivan was getting at: advertising the military as a way of gaining an education, traveling, etc (rather than as an institution that involves risking your life and learning how to kill others in a war situation) is exactly what leads to what you call 'the idiots' and their 'selfish reasons'. They are not idiots precisely because recruitment advertising is not honest: they were not told they would be required to do these things. They were promised a holiday and a free ride!

If that is what Ivan was getting at then I would have agreed with him from the start. Like I said...I wish they were honest about what they are selling to kids and I would agree that they are not. I would like to see that change...

But that does not make it immoral to sell it kids...it makes it immoral to lie to kids about what they are getting into. Two very different things.

 

[FredGarvin]

In my opinion (note the word 'opinion'), this is exactly what Ivan was getting at: advertising the military as a way of gaining an education, traveling, etc (rather than as an institution that involves risking your life and learning how to kill others in a war situation) is exactly what leads to what you call 'the idiots' and their 'selfish reasons'. They are not idiots precisely because recruitment advertising is not honest: they were not told they would be required to do these things. They were promised a holiday and a free ride!

It is your opinion, but my opinion is that it is absolutely WRONG. The first year I was in training I served with both active duty and reservists. Every day we were drilled with the idea of why we were there and why we were learning what we were. Make no mistake, you knew that you were going into learn how to be a soldier. Also, despite popular belief, there are a lot of opportunities for people to get out in the initial training phases. Every single person who goes into the military knows that they may be called upon to go to war. I defy anyone to try to tell me that the only reason they were in basic training or advanced training was because the government had to have you do "something" to earn all that money you were promised. I call those people idiots and selfish because they knew they could be called, but they decided to play the odds for some easy money and perks and lost.

 

[Entropy]

The only gun I ever fired in the line of duty was a .22 caliber rifle at a test range. I was trained to be an aircraft mechanic and to be teach people coming out of boot camp how to be aircraft mechanics. After over 8 years I could never see another jet and I wouldn't mind it at all...it's just not my cup of tea. I could have easily made good living from my training and experience if it was something I would have liked to do. There are thousands of jobs in the military that have no killing as a part of your training. For example, the Navy corpsmen are trained to save lives, not kill.

I was wondering. Did you get to choose to be a machanic? I'm curious as to exactly how people get certain jobs once they sign up.

 

[Townsend]

I defy anyone to try to tell me that the only reason they were in basic training or advanced training was because the government had to have you do "something" to earn all that money you were promised. I call those people idiots and selfish because they knew they could be called, but they decided to play the odds for some easy money and perks and lost.

Recruiters will and have lied to people to get them to join the military. This is a fact and that is what I have a problem with. I have heard recruiters tell kids that they will not likely have to live on a ship or go over seas...the statements are lies and they shouldn't be try to trick people into thinking it's a joy ride.

 

[Townsend]

I was wondering. Did you get to choose to be a machanic? I'm curious as to exactly how people get certain jobs once they sign up.

My choices were limited by the fact that I was a bad boy...in other words I couldn't get a security clearance. Beyond that I was able to choose from a list of jobs where the Navy needed people with my aptitude and abilities.

For example, they wouldn’t want me to be a CS (mess specialist) because I scored relatively well in mechanical aptitude.

But you don’t have to join unless you are happy with the contract they give you. If you want to be an aircraft mechanic and they won’t let, just walk out. They cannot stop you. So the choice is really up to you.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Recruiters will and have lied to people to get them to join the military. This is a fact and that is what I have a problem with. I have heard recruiters tell kids that they will not likely have to live on a ship or go over seas...the statements are lies and they shouldn't be try to trick people into thinking it's a joy ride.

That is partly what happened in my case. The recruiter didn't really lie but he made very misleading statements. Also, a few issues came up such as, the likely results if I ran into problems in school for some reason. I could end up anywhere doing anything with a six year commitment. Beyond that he made the nearly certain sub duty sound like a vacation. The person that I mentioned who talked me out of joining had been in the Navy and had known submariners. The reality was nothing like that described by the recruiter. And if I didn't qualify psychologically for sub duty, which was likely, I would spend 2 years in school and then 4 years in the bowels of a carrier. Again, not what I had been told. The bottom line is that I walked away feeling as though I very nearly made a huge mistake based on a cheesy sales pitch.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay let's take one thing at a time.

True or false: Boot camp is designed to reduce a person to the lowest level and then build them back up with the desired mindset.

True or false: This is precisely how cults brainwash their members. In fact, this is one clue used to identifiy cults.