Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[Townsend]

No doubt you would make a "good German" Townsend.

1. Your conclusions contradict reality.

2. If you took the time to read the thread carefully you would see that I took back what I said in that post and I explained why I said that.

3. Wheather you care to admit it or not, there are good reasons for serving in the military and you have selectively skipped over those things.

4. You completely ignore that fact that I do criticize the military on certain points.

5. Joining the military does NOT mean you support going to war! That is a fallacious argument and your premises do NOT support that conclusion whether you understand that or not! If you believe it is true I welcome you to establish that as a fact while acknowledging that the oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States does not mean mutiny is authorized!

 

[Skyhunter]

Ha ha, that same thing happened to me. I took the ASVAB and don't remember what I scored, but I must have impressed the Navy recruiter. When I went to see him, he was telling me about all the bonuses I would get, and showed me the new car and speaker system he bought with his own. He told me he thought I would be well-suited to nuclear engineering and suggested I work on submarine reactors. I was actually pretty close to doing it, and my father (who was disqualified from military service because of color-blindness) talked me out of it.
I have to admit, I wanted to do it. I love submarine movies, and my grandfather served in the Navy during WWII. He was shipwrecked in the Pacific for two months and it's great hearing the story of how he and his mates lived on a raft eating fish and drinking their blood. I'm so damn weak-minded romanticizing all of this military stuff. Part of me still wants to join the JAG Corps when I get out of school.

I came real close to joining as well. There are a number of aspects of military life that are appealing to me. But I am glad I decided against it.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Although the title is highly decieving, i get what you're saying. Oddly enough my nephew is a marine reservist and let's see..

Mental problems? No.
Alcoholism? No (but then again he drank before even considering the military)
Lack of respect for life? No (and of course that's just your personal opinion)
Brainwashing? Dream on.
Four years of utter boredom? Well he's been pretty bored so far. Oddly enough, he can't wait to go to Iraq but they have been delaying their call-up for i think 18 months or so already.
Flag draped coffins? It's a military, people die, want us to disband it and go back to the stone age?

Whats with all the uninformed ideological rants lately.

This is going to scare the hell out of you.

I tend to agree.

If we view the US forces in a vacuum, one would tend to come to this conclusion.

Looking at a 'cross nation' sampling with countries that have manditory service like The Netherlands, you find that with all classes represented in the military, the general mental health and the demeour of the troops are substantially improved. In fact, the problems in their military shrink to those proportionate to that of their society as a whole.

The problem in the US military is that it is used as an alternative for punishment in minor crimes where the offender is given the option of military service and that most of the military is recruited from the out of work and desperate as a form of escape.

Maybe you recognize the systems term GIGO? Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Sure they LIKE to sign up Harvard Grads with caviar tastes but, more often, the source is Trailer Parks and food stamps.

 

[Townsend]

...

Welcome back TSM...

 

[Townsend]

Maybe you recognize the systems term GIGO? Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Sure they LIKE to sign up Harvard Grads with caviar tastes but, more often, the source is Trailer Parks and food stamps.

It is rather cruel to call people garbage even if they are criminals. And you are correct that for many people the military is used as a chance to get away from a life of poverty. I don't see why that is such a bad thing considering some people don't have much better in the way of options.

 

[The Smoking Man]

It is rather cruel to call people garbage even if they are criminals. And you are correct that for many people the military is used as a chance to get away from a life of poverty. I don't see why that is such a bad thing considering some people don't have much better in the way of options.

Sorry, the term, used in reference to computers is an all encompassing word used figuratively.

If I say that the group of individuals brings with them the problems acquired in their previous life, the sampling then becomes indicative of the organization they join, this is more complex but is the same thing.

If you staff any organizations with a higher number of criminals or people with alcohol problems etc. then the organization inherits a greater penchant for having people like this in their midst.

While it may solve their immediate problems of funds or education, it does not take away the other influences in their life.

 

[Tide]

I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.

I think you made the case for your thesis. Young people aren't smart enough to make their own decisions, they lack judgment, reason, knowledge, good sense, act and react emotionally, are prone to exaggeration and they are easily persuaded by anyone with a flashy argument. You succumbed, not once, but twice. Thanks for settling the issue.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Welcome back TSM...

... Bwuahaha!

 

[Anttech]

Welcome back TSM ;-)

Looking at a 'cross nation' sampling with countries that have manditory service like The Netherlands, you find that with all classes represented in the military, the general mental health and the demeour of the troops are substantially improved. In fact, the problems in their military shrink to those proportionate to that of their society as a whole.

the Netherlands don't have a manditory service any more, it was ablolished in the mid 90's...

 

[loseyourname]

What exactly does military service in Die Niederlande entail anyway? Are they actually deployed in any overseas operations? UN peacekeeping, perhaps?

 

[Anttech]

Well first off they don't speak German in de nederlands they spreken Hollands or Nederlands ;-)

No idea, its cheap labour for the goverment, but they are also part of the UN peacekeeping force... There troops are in Afgainistain right now if my memory serves me correctly. Also They still need to defend there borders, just like you do in the states

 

[Mk]

I know someone that is German...

 

[The Smoking Man]

Well first off they don't speak German in de nederlands they spreken Hollands or Nederlands ;-)

No idea, its cheap labour for the goverment, but they are also part of the UN peacekeeping force... There troops are in Afgainistain right now if my memory serves me correctly. Also They still need to defend there borders, just like you do in the states

So if the Dutch get snarky it's 'Hollandaise Sauce'?

 

[Diane_]

In fairness to the soldiers serving in Iraq, we should. How many thousands and thousands of promises - release dates - has Rummy broke in order to support the demand for the war.

I know I'm coming in late, and I haven't read the entire thread, but I have to respond to this.

I think it would be fair to say I come from a military family. My father was a career Navy man, my oldest brother died on active duty and my middle brother was a nuclear-trained officer.

Every one of them, and I too, would strenuously object to a reinstatement of the draft. For me, it's a simple matter of involuntary servitude, something I always thought was outlawed in the Constitution. My submariner brother has a more practical attitude - he has said that he doesn't want to be on a sub with anyone who doesn't also want to be there. It's just too dangerous.

Ultimately, though, I think Robert Heinlein (another ex-Navy) had it right when he asked if a country founded on principles like ours that couldn't even get its own citizens to volunteer to defend it really deserved to survive.

 

[Tide]

Diane - well put! :)

 

[Anttech]

I know someone that is German...

well there is over 80 million of them

 

[BobG]

The problem in the US military is that it is used as an alternative for punishment in minor crimes where the offender is given the option of military service and that most of the military is recruited from the out of work and desperate as a form of escape.
Maybe you recognize the systems term GIGO? Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Sure they LIKE to sign up Harvard Grads with caviar tastes but, more often, the source is Trailer Parks and food stamps.

Welcome back

I think your perception of who joins the military is a little out of date (but, then again, considering recruiting numbers in the last couple years, maybe it's current again).

The military probably had a higher number of minor offenders in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, but recruiting standards have been raised every time the discrepancy between military pay and civilian pay is reduced. I'm not sure the story of a judge letting a minor offender avoid jail or prison if they joined the military was ever all that common, but it's an out of date myth today.

Adjusting to an all-volunteer force by reducing the gap between military and civilian pay, offering enlistment bonuses and education assistance, etc has allowed the military to be pretty selective in who they pick. The image of quick US victories in the first Gulf War and Kosovo adds prestige and allows the military to be even more selective. Among things that are easily measurable, military recruits are generally above average (definitely above average when the economy is poor, about average when the economy is booming). They have higher ASVAB scores than the population as a whole and they have fewer people with criminal records than the population as a whole.

Of course, they still have a problem getting the top scorers on the ASVAB to join. Most folks scoring up in the high 90's probably have a few options to choose from besides the military (that's why there's some good bonuses for some of those hard to fill career fields like linguists - the DLAB test is considered incredibly difficult, but that's probably because it actually tests a person's ability to learn. Most are more familiar with tests that test what you already know).

So, it is true that the average family income of recruits is below average. It's hard to bring in recruits with some intelligence from upper middle class families when the kid's parents can pay the kid's way through college. Once out of college, it gets pretty tough to compete against what the person could earn in a civilian job.

Low income isn't equivalent to 'garbage' and assuming low income automatically goes hand in hand with criminal behavior is a pretty broad generalization.

 

[Anttech]

In the US military, do you have an "officers university" like the british military?

Basically its a bit like a university, and when you graduate you become an office right of the bat, rather than a "squadie"

 

[Townsend]

In the US military, do you have an "officers university" like the british military?

Basically its a bit like a university, and when you graduate you become an office right of the bat, rather than a "squadie"

Of course...and they are top rated schools as well.

 

[Astronuc]

The No Child Left Behind Act, requires schools who receive federal funds to give their students personal information to military recruiters. The schools in wealthy areas don't need the federal funds.

ALL US high school, and I believe college, students are now entered in a Pentagon database in order to track them for recruiting purposes.

We have been contacted twice by the Army regarding my daughter, and in fact, they called our house and asked to speak directly to my daughter who is considered a minor!

So the US government is keeping tabs on our children.

p.s. A private database company has bought various 'lists', such as loans (not necessarily government), etc., and the student data have been entered. So even if a student does not receive a federal student loan, more than likely they are still in the Pentagon's database.

 

[MaxS]

Ultimately, though, I think Robert Heinlein (another ex-Navy) had it right when he asked if a country founded on principles like ours that couldn't even get its own citizens to volunteer to defend it really deserved to survive.

If I felt that my leaders had the best interests of the common man in mind, and not profiteering and racketeering over seas, I would join up.

As it stands I don't see any connection between military service, and service to my country.

I'm sure many here have read this before, but in a thread like this I think it should be reiterated:

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

 

[loseyourname]

In the US military, do you have an "officers university" like the british military?

Basically its a bit like a university, and when you graduate you become an office right of the bat, rather than a "squadie"

There are two paths to take if you want to start out as a commissioned officer. The first are the academies themselves - West Point, Annapolis, etc., which are extremely competitive and difficult to get into. The other path one can take is to get an ROTC scholarship. Although also competitive, it is a little bit easier to obtain one of these, and what it does is fund your way through any college/university you wish to attend that has an ROTC (reserve officer training corps) Unit either on campus or crosstown. Priority is given to majors in subjects that are in demand - last I checked, meteorology majors were almost guaranteed a spot because they are in huge demand with the Air Force. Once awarded, your schooling is free and you take a military science class every semester along with your regular classes, go through basic training over the summer, and graduate as a commissioned officer.

 

[loseyourname]

Also, I'm pretty sure that if you have a college degree (especially in a needed field) and simply enlist, you'll become a commissioned officer very quickly.

 

[Anttech]

West Point

yeh I've heard of that... (probably from some Film somewhere)

In the UK they have Sandhurst which is where future "officers" are trained.. Bit like West point, it depends on which unit you want to get into I think on how hard the entry is.. But I may be wrong I am not a military expert

 

[Diane_]

There are two paths to take if you want to start out as a commissioned officer. The first are the academies themselves - West Point, Annapolis, etc., which are extremely competitive and difficult to get into. The other path one can take is to get an ROTC scholarship. Although also competitive, it is a little bit easier to obtain one of these, and what it does is fund your way through any college/university you wish to attend that has an ROTC (reserve officer training corps) Unit either on campus or crosstown. Priority is given to majors in subjects that are in demand - last I checked, meteorology majors were almost guaranteed a spot because they are in huge demand with the Air Force. Once awarded, your schooling is free and you take a military science class every semester along with your regular classes, go through basic training over the summer, and graduate as a commissioned officer.

There is a third option, which happens to be the one my brother took. You can get a degree and then join, going through Officer's Candidate School. People who join that way - again, like my brother - tend not to make it a career. Although they join for various reasons, one that gets mentioned a lot is a desire to give something back to the country.

Some people do see military service as one path to serving their country.

 

[Astronuc]

Regarding the last post by MaxS - the kind of behavior described by General Butler still goes on.

Founded in 1921 in New York City, Newmont has been trading on the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) since 1925. In addition to the NYSE, Newmont trades on the Australian and Toronto stock exchanges. Newmont is headquartered in Denver, Colorado. We invite you to explore Newmont’s world of gold.

http://www.newmont.com/en/ - and what Newmont says about social responsibility - http://www.newmont.com/en/social/index.asp

However -

Tangled Strands in Fight Over Peru Gold Mine (The Cost of Gold | Treasure of Yanacocha )
By JANE PERLEZ and LOWELL BERGMAN, October 25, 2005
SAN CERILLO, Peru - The Rev. Marco Arana drove his beige pickup over the curves of a dirt road 13,000 feet high in the Andes. Spread out below lay the Yanacocha gold mine, an American-run operation of mammoth open pits and towering heaps of cyanide-laced ore. Ahead loomed the pristine green of untouched hills.

Then, an unmistakable sign that this land, too, may soon be devoured: Policemen with black masks and automatic rifles guarding workers exploring ground that the mine's owner, Newmont Mining Corporation, has deemed the next best hope.

Newmont gained undisputed control of Yanacocha in 2000 after years of back-room legal wrangling. Behind the scenes, Newmont and its adversaries - a French company and its Australian ally - reached into the upper levels of the American, French and Peruvian governments, employing a cast of former and active intelligence officials, including Peru's ruthless secret police chief, Vladimiro Montesinos.

Much of that arm-twisting has been dragged into the light, in secret recordings by the spy chief. The tapes, apparently intended to blackmail and manipulate Peru's powerbrokers, surfaced in 2000 and led to the downfall of Mr. Montesinos and the president he served, Alberto K. Fujimori.

The tapes captured everything from plotting to fix elections to shopping bags of money being unloaded for payoffs in Mr. Montesinos's office at the Peruvian National Intelligence Agency.

They captured Newmont's maneuverings, too. In one audio recording, the No. 3 Newmont executive at the time, Lawrence T. Kurlander, is heard offering to do a favor for Mr. Montesinos.

"Now you have a friend for life," Mr. Kurlander tells the spy chief.

"You have a friend for life also," Mr. Montesinos replies.

Last year, a Justice Department investigation into whether Newmont's victory resulted from bribing foreign officials was dropped after the Peruvian government failed to cooperate fully and the statute of limitations expired, according to law enforcement officials familiar with the case. The Peruvian government investigated the Yanacocha affair without bringing charges.

Mr. Kurlander has agreed to speak out publicly about his meeting for the first time. He says he regrets seeking out Mr. Montesinos, now in jail charged with everything from corruption to gun running and drug trafficking. But Mr. Kurlander and Newmont are adamant that no bribes were paid, nothing illicit done, at least not by them or their allies.

from http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/25/international/americas/25GOLD.html?th&emc=th (registration required)

 

[edward]

Also, I'm pretty sure that if you have a college degree (especially in a needed field) and simply enlist, you'll become a commissioned officer very quickly.

The Air Force has OTS, officer training school. The Army has OCS, officer candidate school. Both are for enlisted personnel with a 4 year degree.
But being accepted is not a sure thing. It depends on what the military needs and passing a thorough background check. Currently the Army has a 60% acceptance rate for thos who apply.

All in all its a good deal for someone who is bogged down with student loans.

 

[edward]

Welcome back
I think your perception of who joins the military is a little out of date (but, then again, considering recruiting numbers in the last couple years, maybe it's current again).

Bob: it is becoming current again, but but not to the extent that it has gained national attention. Judges used to order young offenders to join the military after conviction for a minor crime.
Now it is quite often used by the defence in the plea bargain stage.

Posted: November 17, 2004 at 12:38 p.m.
SALINAS, Calif. (AP) -- A Salinas man will have to choose between going to jail or joining the military as his punishment for possession of marijuana.

http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=2579902

The DOD uses a demographic study called YATS (youth attitude tracking study)to track where the potential enlistees are. Currently it is in the lower income sector. The rural America and small town sector has always been strong. The most current target is young hispanics but there is a problem because many of them are high school dropouts. Fake diplomas have been showing up.

http://www.dmdc.osd.mil/yats/files2003/YATS1998.pdf

 

[The Smoking Man]

In the US military, do you have an "officers university" like the british military?

Basically its a bit like a university, and when you graduate you become an office right of the bat, rather than a "squadie"

West Point is the equivalent of Sandhurst.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Welcome back

Cheers

I think your perception of who joins the military is a little out of date (but, then again, considering recruiting numbers in the last couple years, maybe it's current again).

The military probably had a higher number of minor offenders in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, but recruiting standards have been raised every time the discrepancy between military pay and civilian pay is reduced. I'm not sure the story of a judge letting a minor offender avoid jail or prison if they joined the military was ever all that common, but it's an out of date myth today.

Adjusting to an all-volunteer force by reducing the gap between military and civilian pay, offering enlistment bonuses and education assistance, etc has allowed the military to be pretty selective in who they pick. The image of quick US victories in the first Gulf War and Kosovo adds prestige and allows the military to be even more selective. Among things that are easily measurable, military recruits are generally above average (definitely above average when the economy is poor, about average when the economy is booming). They have higher ASVAB scores than the population as a whole and they have fewer people with criminal records than the population as a whole.

I think the current selection standards consist of 'a pulse'.

And please ... all you conservatives out there with your fingers on the complaint button ... I did say this was a primary source of recruitment and not the ONLY source.

I am sure you have a few intelligent people enlisting too.

After all, Bush did ironically do away with the old 'hide in the National Guard' Dodge.

What's the reward for having a BA today by the way ... boot camp and then straight to Brigadier General?

(Oh, come on ... how long did you think I was going to be a 'good boy'? ... Think I'll go check my inbox for a message from Evo now )

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Welcome back TSM.

I'm assuming that...

I think the current selection standards consist of 'a pulse'.

is an exageration.
Intellectually speaking the requirements are definitely rather low.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Welcome back TSM.
I'm assuming that...
is an exageration.
Intellectually speaking the requirements are definitely rather low.

Two words:

Lynnie England.

 

[Skyhunter]

I know it is a little out of date, but still relevant.

"The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent. Even when weapons of war are not actually destroyed, their manufacture is still a convenient way of expending labour power without producing anything that can be consumed".

George Orwell, 1984

 

[loseyourname]

^
It's funny, but that's exactly what I was talking about when I cited the huge buildup of military infrastructure as being a factor in why economic growth rates have slowed since 1980 to smurf in that capitalism thread. I'm no economist, but it seems to me that diverting trillions of dollars worth of labor and materials from the market into a non-profit producing sinkhole can have that effect. Maybe I'm being too simplistic, though. I do know that many military technologies eventually make it to the market and that many intelligent men receive training in the military and go on to contribute in the private sector.

 

[BobG]

Bob: it is becoming current again, but but not to the extent that it has gained national attention. Judges used to order young offenders to join the military after conviction for a minor crime.
Now it is quite often used by the defence in the plea bargain stage.

Posted: November 17, 2004 at 12:38 p.m.
SALINAS, Calif. (AP) -- A Salinas man will have to choose between going to jail or joining the military as his punishment for possession of marijuana.

http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=2579902

That will work well - how will he pass random urinalysis? A drug offense while you're in the military is a virtually automatic discharge. (Plus, just because the judge gave the offender the choice doesn't mean the military has to accept him.)