News Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[Smurf]

Thats two things at a time.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Thats two things at a time.

I used two sentences.

 

[Smurf]

three, actually.

 

[BobG]

I was wondering. Did you get to choose to be a machanic? I'm curious as to exactly how people get certain jobs once they sign up.

Depends. You can join with a 'guaranteed' career field (1C600 - Space Operations Specialist, for example), or you can join with a 'guaranteed' range of career fields (Open Electronics, for example), or you can join with an open career field (you get whatever job the military gives you).

If you have a guaranteed career field and they can't give that to you, you can leave - they'll even pay your plane ticket back home ... or you can choose a different career field, which is what most do since it's towards the end of basic training that you would find out that you're not qualified for the job (security) or that the job is overfilled (too many passed the security screening) or some other reason.

Your chances of getting the job they guaranteed is extremely good, especially if the job requires a high ASVAB score. They don't just yank your chain for the heck of it. It's just the guarantee is more like the money back guarantee your store gives you - instead of making satisfaction 100% certain, it just makes sure you don't suffer a major loss if they can't live up to their end of the bargain.

 

[BobG]

Okay let's take one thing at a time.
True or false: Boot camp is designed to reduce a person to the lowest level and then build them back up with the desired mindset.
True or false: This is precisely how cults brainwash their members. In fact, this is one clue used to identifiy cults.

The first: Maybe in the Marines. Maybe even in the Army. I doubt it. It's false for the Air Force.

The second: Maybe. I think that's more commonly used to break down prisoners of war during interrogations and can work, provided the desired mindset isn't one that requires much complicated thought.

More common among groups is the practice of making sure the joining process is an extreme ordeal. The greater ordeal a person had to endure to join an organization, the more initial loyalty they feel towards it (a self-fulfilling prophecy that going through the ordeal was worth it). That applies to some military groups (I've read of a pretty painful initiation for a paratrooper unit where they slam the wings onto your uniform without the little frogs on the back). It also used to be common for many fraternities. That still wouldn't be an accurate description of Air Force basic training, but the Air Force is probably pretty far from being the toughest basic training in the military. It's stressful, to be sure - they might give you a 341 (a demerit) or you might get guard duty in the middle of the night - but it can be endured.

 

[MaxS]

You certainly don't have the decency to think about something beside politics long enough to realize there are good reasons to join the military even if it is during an unjust war.

That is a big enough difference that I don't we are anything alike.

This is some insanely fallacious reasoning.

By volunteering to join the military service of an aggressive and imperialistic nation, you are supporting that nation's policies.

By joining during an unjust war (as all wars of aggression are unjust) you are supporting that war, whether actively or by proxy.

I understand that part of the oath military service(men/women) take is an oath to uphold the law of the land (the constitution of the United States of America). If this oath were taken seriously, there should have been a military coup in this nation - the commander in chief (and not just this one, almost all of the presidents in this nation's history) have taken us into an ILLEGAL WAR (BY UNITED STATES LAW). Congress has made no formal declaration - we are not legally at war. But everyone knows its a war.

Whether or not you care to admit it, or whether you are even privy to such knowledge (of the constitution and hopefully the preamble to the declaration), by joining up you are very much supporting these policies.

This nationalistic line of reasoning can easily be extended to justify the service of Nazi soldiers. No doubt you would make a "good German" Townsend.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

Maybe in the Marines.

This is true. You will NEVER be able to do ANYTHING correctly. Everything you do is way too slow for drill instructors and they SEE EVERYTHING! You are kept exhausted from the night you get there and everything is fed to you at almost a Clockwork Orange pace. Marines are typically still gunshy for a few months after bootcamp. The Discovery channel shows on Marine Corps Boot Camp are cute. Imagine, if you will, having a sadistic bigger brother or sister while mom & dad going away for 4 months and you aren't allowed to contact them except for one day not at your choosing. You can write and tell them everything but there's still nothing they can do.

I've read of a pretty painful initiation for a paratrooper unit where they slam the wings onto your uniform without the little frogs on the back.

Marines too. Then they started making the chevrons out of plastic and that ended that until there were too many complaints because the plastic ones were just cruddy. Once the "rite" is over you are instantly treated differently. Ask any Marine Corporal who just had his chevrons and blood-stripes pinned on, both on the same day.
To stay on topic: I think more than anything, the military is an economic draft and preys on the uninformed. If someone had told me that in college girls get really, really drunk and do crazy things, I would have NEVER joined the military. Hey, I led a sheltered childhood, sue me.

 

[edward]

The things that bother me about current recruitment are:

Sign up bonuses of up to $16,000 are being offered to new recruits who will sign up for a combat MOS. To me this is simply "buying" recruits from low income and underpriviledged areas.

The No Child Left Behind Act, requires schools who receive federal funds to give their students personal information to military recruiters. The schools in wealthy areas don't need the federal funds.

These practices result in the same economic disparity in the military that existed during the Vietnam era.

SEC. 9528. ARMED FORCES RECRUITER ACCESS TO STUDENTS AND STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION.

(a) POLICY-

(1) ACCESS TO STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION- Notwithstanding section 444(a)(5)(B) of the General Education Provisions Act and except as provided in paragraph (2), each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide, on a request made by military recruiters or an institution of higher education, access to secondary school students names, addresses, and telephone listings.

 

[Skyhunter]

I went to a vocational school in 11th grade, so I had to take the ASVAB test. I scored an overall 98 and had a lot of visits and calls from recruiters. I didn't join out of high school. A few years later my sister was considering joining the Air force, and the recruiters came across my test scores again.

What decided me against the military was when they told me I would not be cannon fodder, because of my intelligence and proficiency with computers.

I don't want anyone to be cannon fodder. I felt that the mindset where some human lives were expendible was inherently flawed.

 

[Smurf]

I was thinking about joining the military out of high school. I'm glad I didn't.

 

[edward]

There is nothing wrong with the military as long as you know up front what you are getting into. The Army's recent recruiting tactics woould make a used car salesman blush. There is a lot of fine print that many young people will miss. The "Ready Reserve clause" is a good example.

Another current tactic is to try to get a recruit to re-negotiate his/her enlistment term during basic training.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Okay let's take one thing at a time.
True or false: Boot camp is designed to reduce a person to the lowest level and then build them back up with the desired mindset.
True or false: This is precisely how cults brainwash their members. In fact, this is one clue used to identifiy cults.

I think it depends on what exactly you classify as brain washing. If you make the definition loose enough you could fit all kinds of things under the umbrella of brain washing whether they are benefitial or not. Then you have the real question here "Is the 'brain washing' the military engages in harmful or beneficial?".

Personally just about every military person I have met were good people. I think all of the ones I have met that weren't booted out for some reason or another felt they were better for it and even some of the ones that were kicked out felt that way too.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It is immoral because the kids have not had enough life experience to know what they are getting into - they are incapable of making an informed decision about something that is very important because it is going to shape what sort of person they become in the future.

So we should keep those damned college recruiters away from them too eh?

They are not idiots precisely because recruitment advertising is not honest: they were not told they would be required to do these things. They were promised a holiday and a free ride!

As with everyone else here I will agree that the way recruiters go after these kids is pretty rediculous but I would have to say that anyone who thinks they are in for a paradise cruise after boot camp is just as rediculous. And as far as I know you are not fully obligated until after you have completed boot camp. I may be wrong about that but that is what I have been told.

The No Child Left Behind Act, requires schools who receive federal funds to give their students personal information to military recruiters. The schools in wealthy areas don't need the federal funds.
These practices result in the same economic disparity in the military that existed during the Vietnam era.

The law has been for quite some time that every male by the age of 18 must register themselves with the military one way or another.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One quick adder: Watch the latest Army commercial very closely - the one with the kid talking to his dad. The father says, "but it's the Army", and the kid responds, "no, it's...". And again the dad says, "but it's the Army", and again the kid says, "no, it's...". So literally, twice, the kid says that the Army is not the Army.

Does this remind anyone of any particular novel?

Note also how the kid has the real insight and the dad just doesn't know better.

 

[loseyourname]

I went to a vocational school in 11th grade, so I had to take the ASVAB test. I scored an overall 98 and had a lot of visits and calls from recruiters. I didn't join out of high school. A few years later my sister was considering joining the Air force, and the recruiters came across my test scores again.

What decided me against the military was when they told me I would not be cannon fodder, because of my intelligence and proficiency with computers.
I don't want anyone to be cannon fodder. I felt that the mindset where some human lives were expendible was inherently flawed.

Ha ha, that same thing happened to me. I took the ASVAB and don't remember what I scored, but I must have impressed the Navy recruiter. When I went to see him, he was telling me about all the bonuses I would get, and showed me the new car and speaker system he bought with his own. He told me he thought I would be well-suited to nuclear engineering and suggested I work on submarine reactors. I was actually pretty close to doing it, and my father (who was disqualified from military service because of color-blindness) talked me out of it.

I have to admit, I wanted to do it. I love submarine movies, and my grandfather served in the Navy during WWII. He was shipwrecked in the Pacific for two months and it's great hearing the story of how he and his mates lived on a raft eating fish and drinking their blood. I'm so damn weak-minded romanticizing all of this military stuff. Part of me still wants to join the JAG Corps when I get out of school.

 

[Townsend]

No doubt you would make a "good German" Townsend.

1. Your conclusions contradict reality.

2. If you took the time to read the thread carefully you would see that I took back what I said in that post and I explained why I said that.

3. Wheather you care to admit it or not, there are good reasons for serving in the military and you have selectively skipped over those things.

4. You completely ignore that fact that I do criticize the military on certain points.

5. Joining the military does NOT mean you support going to war! That is a fallacious argument and your premises do NOT support that conclusion whether you understand that or not! If you believe it is true I welcome you to establish that as a fact while acknowledging that the oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States does not mean mutiny is authorized!

 

[Skyhunter]

Ha ha, that same thing happened to me. I took the ASVAB and don't remember what I scored, but I must have impressed the Navy recruiter. When I went to see him, he was telling me about all the bonuses I would get, and showed me the new car and speaker system he bought with his own. He told me he thought I would be well-suited to nuclear engineering and suggested I work on submarine reactors. I was actually pretty close to doing it, and my father (who was disqualified from military service because of color-blindness) talked me out of it.
I have to admit, I wanted to do it. I love submarine movies, and my grandfather served in the Navy during WWII. He was shipwrecked in the Pacific for two months and it's great hearing the story of how he and his mates lived on a raft eating fish and drinking their blood. I'm so damn weak-minded romanticizing all of this military stuff. Part of me still wants to join the JAG Corps when I get out of school.

I came real close to joining as well. There are a number of aspects of military life that are appealing to me. But I am glad I decided against it.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Although the title is highly decieving, i get what you're saying. Oddly enough my nephew is a marine reservist and let's see..

Mental problems? No.
Alcoholism? No (but then again he drank before even considering the military)
Lack of respect for life? No (and of course that's just your personal opinion)
Brainwashing? Dream on.
Four years of utter boredom? Well he's been pretty bored so far. Oddly enough, he can't wait to go to Iraq but they have been delaying their call-up for i think 18 months or so already.
Flag draped coffins? It's a military, people die, want us to disband it and go back to the stone age?

Whats with all the uninformed ideological rants lately.

This is going to scare the hell out of you.

I tend to agree.

If we view the US forces in a vacuum, one would tend to come to this conclusion.

Looking at a 'cross nation' sampling with countries that have manditory service like The Netherlands, you find that with all classes represented in the military, the general mental health and the demeour of the troops are substantially improved. In fact, the problems in their military shrink to those proportionate to that of their society as a whole.

The problem in the US military is that it is used as an alternative for punishment in minor crimes where the offender is given the option of military service and that most of the military is recruited from the out of work and desperate as a form of escape.

Maybe you recognize the systems term GIGO? Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Sure they LIKE to sign up Harvard Grads with caviar tastes but, more often, the source is Trailer Parks and food stamps.

 

[Townsend]

...

Welcome back TSM...

 

[Townsend]

Maybe you recognize the systems term GIGO? Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Sure they LIKE to sign up Harvard Grads with caviar tastes but, more often, the source is Trailer Parks and food stamps.

It is rather cruel to call people garbage even if they are criminals. And you are correct that for many people the military is used as a chance to get away from a life of poverty. I don't see why that is such a bad thing considering some people don't have much better in the way of options.

 

[The Smoking Man]

It is rather cruel to call people garbage even if they are criminals. And you are correct that for many people the military is used as a chance to get away from a life of poverty. I don't see why that is such a bad thing considering some people don't have much better in the way of options.

Sorry, the term, used in reference to computers is an all encompassing word used figuratively.

If I say that the group of individuals brings with them the problems acquired in their previous life, the sampling then becomes indicative of the organization they join, this is more complex but is the same thing.

If you staff any organizations with a higher number of criminals or people with alcohol problems etc. then the organization inherits a greater penchant for having people like this in their midst.

While it may solve their immediate problems of funds or education, it does not take away the other influences in their life.

 

[Tide]

I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.

I think you made the case for your thesis. Young people aren't smart enough to make their own decisions, they lack judgment, reason, knowledge, good sense, act and react emotionally, are prone to exaggeration and they are easily persuaded by anyone with a flashy argument. You succumbed, not once, but twice. Thanks for settling the issue.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Welcome back TSM...

... Bwuahaha!

 

[Anttech]

Welcome back TSM ;-)

Looking at a 'cross nation' sampling with countries that have manditory service like The Netherlands, you find that with all classes represented in the military, the general mental health and the demeour of the troops are substantially improved. In fact, the problems in their military shrink to those proportionate to that of their society as a whole.

the Netherlands don't have a manditory service any more, it was ablolished in the mid 90's...

 

[loseyourname]

What exactly does military service in Die Niederlande entail anyway? Are they actually deployed in any overseas operations? UN peacekeeping, perhaps?

 

[Anttech]

Well first off they don't speak German in de nederlands they spreken Hollands or Nederlands ;-)

No idea, its cheap labour for the goverment, but they are also part of the UN peacekeeping force... There troops are in Afgainistain right now if my memory serves me correctly. Also They still need to defend there borders, just like you do in the states

 

[Mk]

I know someone that is German...

 

[The Smoking Man]

Well first off they don't speak German in de nederlands they spreken Hollands or Nederlands ;-)

No idea, its cheap labour for the goverment, but they are also part of the UN peacekeeping force... There troops are in Afgainistain right now if my memory serves me correctly. Also They still need to defend there borders, just like you do in the states

So if the Dutch get snarky it's 'Hollandaise Sauce'?

 

[Diane_]

In fairness to the soldiers serving in Iraq, we should. How many thousands and thousands of promises - release dates - has Rummy broke in order to support the demand for the war.

I know I'm coming in late, and I haven't read the entire thread, but I have to respond to this.

I think it would be fair to say I come from a military family. My father was a career Navy man, my oldest brother died on active duty and my middle brother was a nuclear-trained officer.

Every one of them, and I too, would strenuously object to a reinstatement of the draft. For me, it's a simple matter of involuntary servitude, something I always thought was outlawed in the Constitution. My submariner brother has a more practical attitude - he has said that he doesn't want to be on a sub with anyone who doesn't also want to be there. It's just too dangerous.

Ultimately, though, I think Robert Heinlein (another ex-Navy) had it right when he asked if a country founded on principles like ours that couldn't even get its own citizens to volunteer to defend it really deserved to survive.

 

[Tide]

Diane - well put! :)