News Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[Ivan Seeking]

Ivan has based his statements not only on his experiences but upon his opinions. He dislikes the fact the the Marine re-upped in order to use his Marine skills in combat. "In other words he wanted to kill people". This oversimplifies the desire of the Marine to fight, down to a desire to murder. If you believe they are the same thing, that is justifiable. But many of us do not believe that.

You have misunderstood what I said. First of all, I never said murder, you did. But no matter what you choose to call it, killing is killing. Also, at the time I didn't dislike the Marine or his intent but I was shocked. I had never met someone would WANTED to experience combat. I had always assumed that like me, any desire to join the military was based on the hope that no actual combat would ever be seen. And albeit a single example, it was an example of someone who, directly or indirectly, desired to use his skills in killing people en masse. If you wish to assume that he really just wanted to play soldier and the killing is only considered consequentially, then all the more to the point. And this is more my take on it. I think he had dissociated the concept of killing people from that of killing enemy combatants, or whatever language is popularly used to dehumanize the enemy. As you know, language is a big part of the brainwashing technique used. Consider for example the "free fire zone" from Vietnam - a place that was destroyed and the occupants all killed.
http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/free-fire-zones.html

I guess all for free? Free; the most effective word to use in any sales ad.

Another point misunderstood is that of the statistics. I was talking about people who see combat. Surviving is only the beginning. Not only will an experience like this be with you for life, if you see terrible things it could well destroy your life even if you come home otherwise unharmed. I think the current statistics place the rate at about 1:6 - 1:8 who are coming home from Iraq with mental problems. Additionally, the image of the Vietnam Vet begging on city streets is common to the point of being a cliche.

I haven't read the whole thread yet but this jumped right out.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As for the brainwashing generally, I would agree that the Navy and AF are both known for their relatively easy boot camp training. I will dig around a bit but in fact boot camp is designed to do exactly what I said. In order to protect their lives, soldiers must be trained to be...soldiers - killers. In combat, reactions and discipline must be automatic if one is to survive. This is why people are made to do things such as cleaning toilets with a toothbrush. This is why drill sargents yell and scream and treat people like dirt. You break the person down and then build them back up again, and in the process the person is changed forever, which is the whole point.

Why would anyone entrust their mind to a government institution?

 

[Integral]

Of course, IIRC, you barely missed going to Vietnam.

Yeah, The carrier I was aboard was scheduled to leave Norfolk Va. for Vietnam in Apr '73. That's a topic for a different thread.

When I went through Navy boot camp in the fall of 1969 we spend our time marching with a dummy rifle from class to class. The classes covered everything from basic hygiene to fire fighting ( the flames were very real!). It rained the day we were supposed to go to the 30 caliber rifle range, the back up plan was an indoor range with corkscrew barreled 22's. We did not receive ANY self defense or "fighting" training. We were taught to live on a ship and stay alive.

Brainwashing to a degree occurs at all levels, in a sense military command relies on brainwashing. In times of need sailors (or infantry on the battlefield) must respond without thought or consideration to the orders of a superior officer, the training to do this requires a form of brainwashing.

 

[Diane_]

As I understand it, one of the purposes of boot camp is to get a group of people to quit acting as individuals and begin acting as a team. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Depends on the circumstances. I think we all value our individuality, but it's also certainly true that that same individuality can get in the way when there's a need for a cooperative effort. An army is, in some sense, the ultimate cooperative effort, hence the training.

I also remember reading somewhere that the actual fraction of soldiers that fire their weapons in combat is something on the order of 1:10. Assuming that's true (and I can't back it up, as I don't remember where I saw that), it would seem that the "brainwashing" doesn't work very well.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think it was in the Korean war that one study found that at times, as much as a third of the soldiers at the front lines would run and hide; and no wonder! I once talked with a vet who was there. He said the Chinese would just keep throwing bodies at you until the machine guns overheated and failed.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There's a difference between lack of respect and de-sensitizing.

Talk with a combat hardened vet about his enemy; no matter who it was.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Talk with a combat hardened vet about his enemy; no matter who it was.

If you go outside the USA, you can usually ask the general population, never mind the 'combat hardened vet'. That's merely a peculiarity of the American situation.

Until now, that is.

Ask most Americans about 'Moslems'.

 

[russ_watters]

Tom Browkaw called the generation that won WWII "The Greatest Generation". It used to be that people had respect for people that made such a sacrifice for their country. Then came Vietnam... I had thought that since then, the respect had come back, but apparently, there is still a lingering distrust of the institution that some don't understand.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

Tom Browkaw called the generation that won WWII "The Greatest Generation". It used to be that people had respect for people that made such a sacrifice for their country. Then came Vietnam... I had thought that since then, the respect had come back, but apparently, there is still a lingering distrust of the institution that some don't understand.

Respect for the men and women in uniform is without a doubt there. Respect for the idiots that made stuff up and sent them to war, no. I akin it to a schoolyard wussy(the administration) slapping the bully(military/american people) and then pointing at some innocent kid(anyone who appears to be middle eastern) and saying, "he did it!".

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Not entirely true. I've known people that were "certifiable" that were kept around because of their skills while hard working kids were discharged because their wives wrote too many bad checks to the PX. Like I said before, its dependent on the Command. If the infantry commander thinks its a good idea to let his troops be bloodthirsty and he encourages them to blood battlefield virgins for the ritual of it all, its his call as long as he stays below the radar. If he wants to have only "gentlemen soldiers" under him that follow the rules of war to the T, again.

This is why I added the word "noticable" in there. If someone in the chain of command ignores or covers it up it will go unnoticed, at least for a while.

Unless it only becomes apparent in certain situations like the cluster f**k known as Abu Ghraib?

By then, it's too late ... the damage is done.

There have also been incidents around bases in the Philippines, Okinawa and South Korea and an American Soldier was tracked down in Europe for grooming an English child and transporting her to France.

It seems organizations requiring sacrifice for enrolment are plagued with this type of behaviour.

I mention the US forces but we can equally apply this to the Catholic Church on an international basis.

The Canadian forces and Brits have also had problems in this area. Both have actually destroyed the 'colours' of regiments found guilty of abhorrent behaviour.

So ... before you all point and say "American basher" ... America is only the visible target at the moment.

Remember Lynnie England was considered a good soldier because of her malliability and her willingness to follow orders with enthusiasm. It was also her downfall as it was the force that employed her.

I'm not sure how reliable the source is but someone who was stationed in Iraq told me that Abu Ghraib was where they sent the f**k ups mistakenly thinking that by putting them there for the time being they wouldn't do much harm. BIG mistake that turned out to be, if true.

At any rate, can you give me any idea what the military should do to make sure soldiers will be reliable in an actual combat scenario without putting them in one? And just how economical and effective do you think it would be?
Also do you have any statistics that show how current military match up against the general population so far as competency and mental stability?

I think that in just about every job I have ever had I worked with people who were not all too competent or mentally stable. How about you?
My last employer hired a guard and put him through a full background check (mandatory) which he came through clean (also manditory) only to find out that he was a professional criminal a couple monthes later, after he had stolen from the property he was working on, and turned him into the police.
Currently I am working with someone who has a felony on his record because my employer decided to be lazy and not put him through a background check. The felony is related to physical abuse towards a minor while training in the police academy. He is now working as a security officer on a college campus because he bull****ed our employer and they don't want to let him go because we're short handed.

 

[Entropy]

I think it was in the Korean war that one study found that at times, as much as a third of the soldiers at the front lines would run and hide; and no wonder!

In the civil war, only 10% of the soldiers ever fired their rifle, there are also similar statistics in WWI and WWII. It was only until Vietnam when they started training soldiers to instinctively shoot that the firing rate went up around 90%.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

At any rate, can you give me any idea what the military should do to make sure soldiers will be reliable in an actual combat scenario without putting them in one? And just how economical and effective do you think it would be?

The Marines have several ways to do this. I'm not sure, but I believe every major base has a "combat town" that is basically CMU's slapped together to simulate urban territory and there's always the hundreds of acres surrounding military bases to use except when the Red Cockaded Woodpecker decides to set up shop. The Marines have 29 Palms, CA which is basically 900-something square miles of desert target and a mountain warfare training center not to mention many, many cooperative training efforts with sister services both within our country and abroad. Some major commands have simulators that have weapons connected to air hoses to make noise and provide blow-back and a movie is projected on a screen, etc.. you get the point. Lat but not least, that I know of, is the PC video game. And I don't mean Politically Correct. A civilian version is available to desensitize your children and indoctrinate them as early as you wish.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The Marines have several ways to do this. I'm not sure, but I believe every major base has a "combat town" that is basically CMU's slapped together to simulate urban territory and there's always the hundreds of acres surrounding military bases to use except when the Red Cockaded Woodpecker decides to set up shop. The Marines have 29 Palms, CA which is basically 900-something square miles of desert target and a mountain warfare training center not to mention many, many cooperative training efforts with sister services both within our country and abroad. Some major commands have simulators that have weapons connected to air hoses to make noise and provide blow-back and a movie is projected on a screen, etc.. you get the point. Lat but not least, that I know of, is the PC video game. And I don't mean Politically Correct. A civilian version is available to desensitize your children and indoctrinate them as early as you wish.

While live fire excersizes may be dangerous and can result in injury or death if you **** up I'm pretty sure that they realize they aren't going to be hurt unless they **** up. It may weed out some of the ones easily broken but actually being out there in another country not knowing when someone might shoot at you, knowing that when the bullets fly they are actually aimed at you, watching people die, actually shooting at real people... I'm sure the psychological effect is quite differant. I realize there are ways to prepare people but there is no way to be certain that anyone is going to be able to hold up under the pressure of actually being in that situation. The military isn't the only job like that either.

 

[BobG]

Welcome back
I think your perception of who joins the military is a little out of date (but, then again, considering recruiting numbers in the last couple years, maybe it's current again).
The military probably had a higher number of minor offenders in the 50's, 60's, and 70's, but recruiting standards have been raised every time the discrepancy between military pay and civilian pay is reduced. I'm not sure the story of a judge letting a minor offender avoid jail or prison if they joined the military was ever all that common, but it's an out of date myth today.
Adjusting to an all-volunteer force by reducing the gap between military and civilian pay, offering enlistment bonuses and education assistance, etc has allowed the military to be pretty selective in who they pick. The image of quick US victories in the first Gulf War and Kosovo adds prestige and allows the military to be even more selective. Among things that are easily measurable, military recruits are generally above average (definitely above average when the economy is poor, about average when the economy is booming). They have higher ASVAB scores than the population as a whole and they have fewer people with criminal records than the population as a whole.
Of course, they still have a problem getting the top scorers on the ASVAB to join. Most folks scoring up in the high 90's probably have a few options to choose from besides the military (that's why there's some good bonuses for some of those hard to fill career fields like linguists - the DLAB test is considered incredibly difficult, but that's probably because it actually tests a person's ability to learn. Most are more familiar with tests that test what you already know).
So, it is true that the average family income of recruits is below average. It's hard to bring in recruits with some intelligence from upper middle class families when the kid's parents can pay the kid's way through college. Once out of college, it gets pretty tough to compete against what the person could earn in a civilian job.
Low income isn't equivalent to 'garbage' and assuming low income automatically goes hand in hand with criminal behavior is a pretty broad generalization.

I guess the part about the average family income is wrong. As of 2003, the average family income of military recruits is slightly above average.

Middle class filling up military, study says

 

[flotsam]

For what its worth, Ivan, I agree with what you say.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Tom Browkaw called the generation that won WWII "The Greatest Generation". It used to be that people had respect for people that made such a sacrifice for their country. Then came Vietnam... I had thought that since then, the respect had come back, but apparently, there is still a lingering distrust of the institution that some don't understand.

This not about or against those who in good faith make a sacrifice for their country, it is about those who lie to or mislead young people in order to convince them to throw away their lives for a quota. As usual, intentionally or not, you either missed the point, or you wish to make this sound like something it's not.

 

[Art]

This not about or against those who in good faith make a sacrifice for their country, it is about those who lie to or mislead young people in order to convince them to throw away their lives for a quota. As usual, intentionally or not, you either missed the point, or you wish to make this sound like something it's not.

It seems some base their patriotism and judge others on the oft quoted "our country right or wrong"

Naval commander Stephen Decatur originated the phrase in a toast given at an April 1816 banquet in Norfolk, Virginia "Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."

Fifty-five years later, Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator, clarified the concept, "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right."

The difference between these 2 concepts seems to me to epitomise the difference between those who support Bush and those who don't.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It seems some base their patriotism and judge others on the oft quoted "our country right or wrong"

Naval commander Stephen Decatur originated the phrase in a toast given at an April 1816 banquet in Norfolk, Virginia "Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."

Fifty-five years later, Carl Schurz, German-born U.S. general and U.S. senator, clarified the concept, "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right."

The difference between these 2 concepts seems to me to epitomise the difference between those who support Bush and those who don't.

The latter is in agreement with the Constitution whereas the former is the reason we need it.

 

[Bystander]

I think so. I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, (snip).

Have 18 year olds reached the age of consent? By Federal law they are allowed to make "informed" decisions in the voting booth (I've no clue why they can't drink --- MADD?) Are the lies in election years any different from those of recruiting ads? Keep in mind that people are being asked to commit their entire lives to higher taxes rather than 3,4, or 6 years. These kids are responsible for identifying "hard sells" whether they're capable or not --- that's a public education failure. The "morality" of handing a kid a high school diploma without teaching him/her/it to read, write, or do "'rithmetic" is far more questionable.

Okay let's take one thing at a time.
True or false: Boot camp is designed to reduce a person to the lowest level and then build them back up with the desired mindset.

False: the goal is to adjust a trainee's perspective of himself in relation to the rest of the world to something more realistic than the "I am the center of the universe, and my every wish is the world's command to gratify immediately" position "kids" have had since Christ was a corporal; the "desired mindset" is that of recognizing that it's necessary to work as a group to achieve common goals from time to time.

True or false: This is precisely how cults brainwash their members. In fact, this is one clue used to identifiy cults.

False: You live in Oregon, home of the moonies, or have they gone elsewhere? You are about the right age to have had the opportunity to watch them on campus --- just like sharks, pick out the sick and dying, the kids on the verge of flunking out, no where to go, no friends, no social lives --- then, tell them that they are special rather than "breaking them down" (breaks down resistance to the special requests to follow), and proceed with the conditioning.

That is my objection. People should understand that the military is for defense [or offense under this administration] and not self improvement.

It's a terrible job that somebody has to do, ​

I set this apart because it's interesting that you can recognize the necessity, and at the same time even start a thread like this.
Do you actually understand the necessity for military service? Or, is this a rhetorical preface to the "Miss America Pageant" throwaway line about "world peace" that follows.

but we would all be better off if no one ever served in any military. It should be sold as nothing more.

You, or someone, lamented the Marine acquaintance who re-upped to go to Iraq. Wanta know why? Same reason draftees re-upped in the Nam --- "No way I'm leaving (pick one: my buddies, my best friend) to handle this while I go home (or stay home in the case of the Marine)."
It's called CHARACTER. If that ain't "self improvement," nothing is.

 

[Skyhunter]

False: You live in Oregon, home of the moonies, or have they gone elsewhere? You are about the right age to have had the opportunity to watch them on campus --- just like sharks, pick out the sick and dying, the kids on the verge of flunking out, no where to go, no friends, no social lives --- then, tell them that they are special rather than "breaking them down" (breaks down resistance to the special requests to follow), and proceed with the conditioning.

Sun Myung Moon, ex-convict, founder of the unification church, and self declared Messiah, is the owner of the Washington Times. He is a rightwing nut. Not exactly the guy you want to use as an analogy of liberal brainwashing.

You seem like such a smart guy guy Bystander, your not by chance suffering from a little conservative brainwashing are you?

[edit]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_Moon

 

[Bystander]

Sun Myung Moon, ex-convict, founder of the unification church, and self declared Messiah, is the owner of the Washington Times. He is a rightwing nut. Not exactly the guy you want to use as an analogy of liberal brainwashing.
You seem like such a smart guy guy Bystander, your not by chance suffering from a little conservative brainwashing are you?
[edit]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_Moon[/QUOTE]

Ivan said nothing about the politics of cults. I said nothing about the politics of cults. You've drawn a very tortured inference from nothing.

"You seem like such a smart guy guy Bystander..." Or, in light of my observations of Moonies, "You're special." You trying to brainwash me?

 

[BobG]

Sun Myung Moon, ex-convict, founder of the unification church, and self declared Messiah, is the owner of the Washington Times. He is a rightwing nut. Not exactly the guy you want to use as an analogy of liberal brainwashing.
You seem like such a smart guy guy Bystander, your not by chance suffering from a little conservative brainwashing are you?
[edit]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_Moon[/QUOTE]
I think I missed the part where he said Moon's techniques were similar to liberal brainwashing.

Bystander is right about the Moonies techniques. The pressure they put on their recruits was more like family pressure. They would slowly build a relationship with a recruit, then invite them to a 'discussion group' in a different city. The persuasion was always gentle and friendly, but the recruit was a captive of circumstance until the assimilation was complete (unless they were clever enough to have brought some bus fare or willing to hitch hike home). I wouldn't have any idea what their success rate was, but there sure seemed to be a lot of them hanging around college campuses.

I loved one of the scenes created at a discussion hosted by the Moonies at Ohio State. The advertised discussion was about Communism vs. Democracy - with the goal seemingly to be to lure students interested in Communism. A rabbi showed up to disrupt the discussion by harrassing the Moonies and telling the students the group was really a religious cult - not a group interested in discussing politics. The twist to the whole scene that the rabbi missed is that you could barely call them a religious cult. The gist of their religion was supposed to be hidden from outsiders, probably because their whole religion was the preservation of a democratic South Korea in the war against a communist North Korea (a right wing nut, just as you said).

Quite a few other religious cults of the time used similar methods (including Charlie Manson's family). Providing a 'family' to those that felt isolated and alone was a much more effective brainwashing technique than '[reducing] a person to the lowest level' through emotional and physical stress.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

False: the goal is to adjust a trainee's perspective of himself in relation to the rest of the world to something more realistic than the "I am the center of the universe, and my every wish is the world's command to gratify immediately" position "kids" have had since Christ was a corporal; the "desired mindset" is that of recognizing that it's necessary to work as a group to achieve common goals from time to time.

The teamwork part you got right but it is apparent you haven't spent 13 weeks getting screamed at by 4 Drill Instructors and numerous other senior Marines for breathing the wrong way, lacing your boots wrong, urinating in a toilet instead of a urinal, eating with your left hand instead of your right, not choking someone until they puke, not coming to the position of attention as you fall off a rope strung from a 50 foot tower into a 10 foot deep stagnate pool of water, the list goes on. As I posted before, the Discovery channel portrays a cute picture of life in Marine Corps Boot Camp, otherwise it would NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE SHOWN. Anyone who has ever been on the receiving end of the aforementioned "instruction" can verify the their particular DI's were the most sadistic SOB's ever created yet after the "indoctrination" there is an odd affection for them. Does THAT sound like a cult?

You, or someone, lamented the Marine acquaintance who re-upped to go to Iraq. Wanta know why? Same reason draftees re-upped in the Nam --- "No way I'm leaving (pick one: my buddies, my best friend) to handle this while I go home (or stay home in the case of the Marine)."
It's called CHARACTER. If that ain't "self improvement," nothing is.

This is true for the most part, however, the ones that remain in harms way WANTS the other to get the ***k out of Dodge and hopes he dosen't have to come back...EVER! They'll usually hope to meet at another time and place but not in the Suck*. *A term of endearment Marines use to refer to their particular branch of service.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Have 18 year olds reached the age of consent? By Federal law they are allowed to make "informed" decisions in the voting booth (I've no clue why they can't drink --- MADD?) Are the lies in election years any different from those of recruiting ads? Keep in mind that people are being asked to commit their entire lives to higher taxes rather than 3,4, or 6 years. These kids are responsible for identifying "hard sells" whether they're capable or not --- that's a public education failure. The "morality" of handing a kid a high school diploma without teaching him/her/it to read, write, or do "'rithmetic" is far more questionable.

This has nothing to do with misleading young people into making bad decisions.

False: the goal is to adjust a trainee's perspective of himself in relation to the rest of the world to something more realistic than the "I am the center of the universe, and my every wish is the world's command to gratify immediately" position "kids" have had since Christ was a corporal; the "desired mindset" is that of recognizing that it's necessary to work as a group to achieve common goals from time to time.

False: You live in Oregon, home of the moonies, or have they gone elsewhere? You are about the right age to have had the opportunity to watch them on campus --- just like sharks, pick out the sick and dying, the kids on the verge of flunking out, no where to go, no friends, no social lives --- then, tell them that they are special rather than "breaking them down" (breaks down resistance to the special requests to follow), and proceed with the conditioning

The question was so obvious as to be rhetorical. I stated the purpose of boot camp - survival and success in battle. This happens by making people killing machines that take orders like robots. Instead of the military or the moonies, how about school and a job? I would wager that I learned much more on the job working on CAT scanners and MRI's, and learning about the medical industry - the real world - than I would have in the bowels of a carrier.

I set this apart because it's interesting that you can recognize the necessity, and at the same time even start a thread like this.

Its called objectivity. I never implied that we don't need a military.

Do you actually understand the necessity for military service? Or, is this a rhetorical preface to the "Miss America Pageant" throwaway line about "world peace" that follows.

This is all about recognizing what the military is really designed to do. It is not a place for education or self improvement. When not misused, it is for the defense of the nation. So if people want to join out of patriotism or duty, sadly, we need people who are willing to do this. But my point is this: Don't take the chance of throwing away your life for a song and dance. The military is not just a college with uniforms. And parents know all about the military. There is nothing new about the lure for education. The reason the Army tries so hard to make parents seem ignorant is that parents know what I'm saying is true: The military is a good place to ruin your life.

You, or someone, lamented the Marine acquaintance who re-upped to go to Iraq. Wanta know why? Same reason draftees re-upped in the Nam --- "No way I'm leaving (pick one: my buddies, my best friend) to handle this while I go home (or stay home in the case of the Marine)."
It's called CHARACTER. If that ain't "self improvement," nothing is.

You completely missed the point. He didn't re-up to return to Kuwait for his comrads. In fact he had never been there. He just wanted to see some action. Those were his words. If you call the desire to kill, character, then thank you for demonstrating my point.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The character that you speak of so fondly is usually found through the experiences of war; say when your best buddy's head explodes in your face.

 

[Bystander]

The teamwork part you got right but it is apparent you haven't spent 13 weeks getting screamed at by 4 Drill Instructors and numerous other senior Marines for breathing the wrong way, lacing your boots wrong, urinating in a toilet instead of a urinal, eating with your left hand instead of your right, not choking someone until they puke, not coming to the position of attention as you fall off a rope strung from a 50 foot tower into a 10 foot deep stagnate pool of water, the list goes on.

You're absolutely correct. I went to the Waynesville. MO Club Med: the "drill hosts" served milk and cookies at 10, 2, and 4; told us bedtime stories and tucked us in every night; took us to movies on weekends and holidays; the list just goes on and on.

As I posted before, the Discovery channel portrays a cute picture of life in Marine Corps Boot Camp, otherwise it would NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE SHOWN. Anyone who has ever been on the receiving end of the aforementioned "instruction" can verify the their particular DI's were the most sadistic SOB's ever created yet after the "indoctrination" there is an odd affection for them. Does THAT sound like a cult?

Nope. You got tricked into motivating yourself to finish something you started, even after you'd discovered it wasn't pleasant. You weren't authorized to think of yourself as anything but a maggot, let alone something special, and you had to make it through the hoops and over the hurdles before they would call you "Marine." They didn't lower the standards one microscopic little bit for you. If you went through "post-all-vol," they even encouraged you to quit. People in my day didn't have that option --- the foul balls, sad sacks, screw-ups, and weak sisters (my apologies to the ladies, but that was the vernacular at the time) were recycled until they got it right, went psycho, or died.

This is true for the most part, however, the ones that remain in harms way WANTS the other to get the ***k out of Dodge and hopes he dosen't have to come back...EVER! They'll usually hope to meet at another time and place but not in the Suck*. *A term of endearment Marines use to refer to their particular branch of service.

Yeah, everyone wanted everyone out in every war. When did "the crotch" become "the suck?" Been seeing/hearing that in the ad for whatever the Gulf '91 flick is.

 

[scott1]

I think so. I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.
I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.

Where did you get these results? Why do you think that you become an acholic when you join milltary all three branches of the milltary have strict acholl polices(it's hard to aim when your drunk if you didn't know that).There might be some mentel problems from basic training since used for pshcological poproues.I don't know where you got the lack of respect of life everyone in the milltary that I talked to that had killed some had a hard time saying that they killed.One of them asumend that they didn't kill them and another just cried for every kill.Why whould the milltary want to go out and some to get these "results" and why whould the milltary want someone to die.Can you please explain to me where you get these "results".Can you prove these results are accurate using the Scientific method.

 

[Art]

Where did you get these results? Why do you think that you become an acholic when you join milltary all three branches of the milltary have strict acholl polices(it's hard to aim when your drunk if you didn't know that).There might be some mentel problems from basic training since used for pshcological poproues.I don't know where you got the lack of respect of life everyone in the milltary that I talked to that had killed some had a hard time saying that they killed.One of them asumend that they didn't kill them and another just cried for every kill.Why whould the milltary want to go out and some to get these "results" and why whould the milltary want someone to die.Can you please explain to me where you get these "results".Can you prove these results are accurate using the Scientific method.

I was just reading about PTSD, as you are interested in the subject I hope you find this useful.

Posttraumatic Stress Disorder and Mortality Among U.S. Army Veterans 30 Years After Military Service.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16099672&dopt=Citation and this

Drug addicted US troops sent to Scotland for help

Iraq veterans in rehab with NHS patients
By Liam McDougall, Health Correspondent


A PICTURESQUE Scottish hospital is being used by the US military as a base to treat drug and alcohol addicted troops who have fought in Iraq, the Sunday Herald can reveal.

http://www.sundayherald.com/47041

 

[scott1]

I was just reading about PTSD, as you are interested in the subject I hope you find this useful. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16099672&dopt=Citation and this http://www.sundayherald.com/47041

The PTSD was form vietnam of course there's going to pschological problems the milltary has learned how to treat it after that infact I pretty sure if your involed in any combat in Iraq you have to get counsling.There's only 40 drug/acholo addicts and it never said they were acholoic/drug addict before they went Iraq it just said they where in Iraq. there's still not enogh results to prove that these problems happen in the milltary.Those achool/drug addicts are probally going to get court martial after rehablation.

 

[scott1]

The character that you speak of so fondly is usually found through the experiences of war; say when your best buddy's head explodes in your face.

Where are you getting this data, war movies? If you are getting this data from movies there very inaccurate(they don't even salute right) and your getting your data form entertaiment that has action that usaullay never really happens(like big explosions having your buddy's head explode). You need some accurate siecntific data to prove what and a reasonobile counclusion to prove that it's immoral to sell kids the milltary.
That's fake chacter this is the defftion since obviously don't what means
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=character

As a one-off, I knew a guy who re-upped just so that he could fight in Gulf I. He wanted to use what he had learned. In other words, he wanted to kill people.
Soldiers are trained killers. By defintion this requires a desensitization to killing.

I herd this saying once
"War is sweet to thoes who never experniced it"
It bascially means that if you never went to war and you like it your wrong.
Do you know who your friend is trained to kill Terroist.Have you spoke to him since he went to the Gulf did he say he kill anyone and if he did he like it.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

When did "the crotch" become "the suck?" Been seeing/hearing that in the ad for whatever the Gulf '91 flick is.

At least since August 24, 1984 at about 2 o'clock in the morning in San Diego at the Recruit Training Depot while my size 12's were doing their best to stay on the pretty yellow footprints. God Bless Lewis Burwell Puller Jr. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller

 

[Bystander]

This has nothing to do with misleading young people into making bad decisions.

You say, "Nothing," and I say, "Everything."
Impasse.
How about measuring "degree of misdirection" in terms of "due diligence" on the part of the "buyer" and actual contract performance on the part of the seller?

The question was so obvious as to be rhetorical.

Obvious to whom? The membership of the cult of brainwashed liberals? If you make the simple statement that boot camp is like cult brainwashing
in your opinion,
then people are free to agree or disagree. As an opinion, the point is irrelevant to discussion of your original question in this thread.
If you ask people to compare boot camp and cult brainwashing, you should expect to get comparisons. Such comparisons are still irrelevant to the discussion of your original question, but you really do need to address them since you brought them up.
You then announce that you are equating boot camp and cult brainwashing rhetorically --- are you "immorally" attempting to "mislead" forum members into accepting opinion as fact?

I stated the purpose of boot camp - survival and success in battle. This happens by making people killing machines that take orders like robots.

You have stated that you have no experience of basic training.
Training doctrines evolve over time, "natural selection" favoring the doctrines employed by successful military organizations. The identification and characterization of "successful organizations," and of the training doctrines they employ is a major topic of military science, a contentious topic, and a topic lacking consensus. There is a further complication of the problem in that training doctrines are seldom synchronous with tactical and strategic doctrines, and tactical and strategic doctrines are seldom reflections of tactical and strategic realities.
The only military organization arguably applying a training doctrine that abandons cultural mores would be the FFL --- and, even it has not abandoned the mores of the culture it serves, only those of some of the cultures from which personnel are recruited.
"The only good injun is a dead injun," and "The Japanese language will be spoken only in hell" reflect "Manifest Destiny" and Roosevelt's insistence on unconditional surrender. Your "robot killing machines" got not only cultural approval, but acclamation. What your "robot killing machines" thought of the acclamation and the culture might surprise you.

Instead of the military or the moonies, how about school and a job? I would wager that I learned much more on the job working on CAT scanners and MRI's, and learning about the medical industry - the real world - than I would have in the bowels of a carrier.

?

Its called objectivity. I never implied that we don't need a military.
This is all about recognizing what the military is really designed to do.

Break things and kill people. AND, as an incentive to enlistment and personnel retention, education and self-improvement are offered. Do they deliver on their contractual obligations? Yes. Do they hold peoples' feet to the fire if they (the individuals) choose to welsh on the contract? Depends on the circumstances.

It is not a place for education or self improvement.

You're willing to have people do the dirty jobs that have to be done, and you're going to deny them the benefits the military is offering them for doing what you won't dirty your hands doing?

When not misused,

What is the point of hedging? Can't you say, "The military exists for the defense of the nation?" If you think it's misused at times, say "but, it is misused at times." It's another irrelevant tangent to your original "question." All I wanted to know was whether you really understood the necessity.

it is for the defense of the nation. So if people want to join out of patriotism or duty, sadly, we need people who are willing to do this.

What do you mean "we need," white man? You're the one who needs "robot killing machines" to defend him.

But my point is this:

The question in the thread title has now become a "point." Can't you just title the thread "I think recruiting ads are immoral?"

Don't take the chance of throwing away your life for a song and dance.

"War to end all war?" Or, "Make the world safe for democracy?" Maybe, "Ask not...?"
Great big boldface underlined
AMEN
to that. Damned democrats are forever confusing things by spouting this kind of nonsense rather than understanding what national interests are actually at stake, stating those interests, and taking appropriate actions.

The military is not just a college with uniforms. And parents know all about the military. There is nothing new about the lure for education. The reason the Army tries so hard to make parents seem ignorant is that parents know what I'm saying is true: The military is a good place to ruin your life.

Now the ads are immoral for undermining parent-child relationships. Maybe 5-10 minutes a day of recruiting ads if the kid spends the entire day glued to the TV set? Compare this to 12-13 years, 8-9 mos. of 5 day wks. a year, 6-7 hrs. a day in the public schools: "It's a parent problem. Parents just won't get involved. Tell your parents to vote for ______, or we won't be able to teach you how to put condoms on bananas next year." Who's undermining parent-child relationships?
We are discussing legally defined adults. They have voting rights. They are not obligated to obtain parental consent. They are big boys and girls now, and they can make their own decisions. They really do not need Ivan to protect them.

You completely missed the point.
He didn't re-up to return to Kuwait for his comrads. In fact he had never been there.

I did not say "return." I referred to a sense of loyalty (assumed by me) to the people he knew who were still "in," and going.

He just wanted to see some action. Those were his words.

I've been known to yank liberals' chains with similar remarks. My interpretation of the anecdote differs from yours, but I wasn't there.

If you call the desire to kill, character, then thank you for demonstrating my point.

To what "demonstration" do you refer? Have I expressed "desire to kill" at any time in this thread?

The character that you speak of so fondly is usually found through the experiences of war; say when your best buddy's head explodes in your face.

Paraphrasing G. C. Scott's "Patton?" Or, is this an Alda knock-off of "Patton?" Character is knowing, or finding out, what has to be done and doing it before someone's head gets blown off. It's too late after the fact, "they" got the drop on you, and you lost.
This is the point in a hot contact where your "robot killing machines" wind up dead. This is the point in a hot contact where people with character enough to get through basic depend on that character to gain control of themselves, and then the situation.
Such situations do not develop character --- they test it --- to and beyond destruction.
No. You don't get any details. I did my year. I got out. I know fifteen people who didn't.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Boy, I forgot all about this one...

You say, "Nothing," and I say, "Everything."
Impasse.
How about measuring "degree of misdirection" in terms of "due diligence" on the part of the "buyer" and actual contract performance on the part of the seller?

Obvious to whom? The membership of the cult of brainwashed liberals? If you make the simple statement that boot camp is like cult brainwashing

Obviously, when I see that cult techniques are the same used in boot camp, which I did describe in brief. And the fact the people come out of boot camp changed. is no secret, it is part of the purpose of boot camp, and in itself is proof of what I say, but the fallacy is to assume that they have changed for the better in all ways. But why do you need to resort to personal attacks? First of all, historically I am a Republican. Bush made me a Democrat, so basically all of your anti-liberal rhetoric, or whatever you think are arguing against, is nothing more than smoke - the sixties are over. As for the rest, you personal bias continues to blind you to the fact that I never said we don't need soldiers, nor have I ever said that wars can always be avoided. But I do object to all of the rhetoric used to misguide young people into making bad decisions with their lives. And most of all, I find the glorification of war the most offensive of all. And that's what people do. They glorify war by waiving the flag in front of impressionable youngsters while filling their heads with this silly "look a man in the eyes" garbage, and all for a quota. As I have said, if someone wants to join up to fight a war that they believe is needed, I think it's terrible that anyone should have to do this, but we need people who will. When I was at that age, I was registered for the draft and fully expected to go to either Cambodia, as that was looking bad for a time, or the middle east, which was a problem as always, in addition to nearly joining voluntarily a couple of years later. So before you start attacking anyone and putting them in your nice little box, you should to see who they are first.

In the news

Day to Day, December 29, 2005 · A disagreement over a sign in a shop front in Duluth, Minn., is an example of divided national opinions on the war in Iraq. Farai Chideya talks with Scott Cameron, a Vietnam veteran who put up a sign tallying the number of dead and injured military personnel in Iraq, and Sgt. Gary Capan, an Army recruiter who works next door to Cameron and wants the sign removed.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5074194&ft=1&f=1014

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm sure that a sign counting the dead in Iraq, in the window next door, does put a damper on the sales pitch.

 

[Bystander]

Boy, I forgot all about this one...
(snip)

... and just stumbled over it halfway down page 4. Uh-huh.

 

[edward]

Brain Washing, not just for boot camp anymore

The problem here is that the legal age of consent is 18. The recruiters however are allowed to begin their spiel on a young person at a much earlier age. And let's remember, young people have an inherant tendency to take chances that really doesn't resolve itself until the mid twenties.

Add to that the fact that the No Child Left Behind ACT, requires High schools to give military recuiters the personal information (addresses phone numbers ect.)of all students, or the school risks losing federal funding.

In recent years recuiters have been frequenting school lunch rooms, pitching their line in Malls, and calling young people at home. Most recently it has been discovered that recuiters have been allowing young people to play the same video games that are used in military combat training. Are 16 year old kids ready for this type of tactic? I personally don't think so.

Is it the responsibility of the parents to make the final deciscion? Yes , but they can not stop a determined child who is over the age of 18 from doing anything, even though that childs brain washing began at age 16 or even earlier.

In years past it was rare that a recruiter even talked to a high school student except on "career day". Now it is every day. There is no fast talking, sentence twisting, word bending approach that can change the fact that military recruiters have been given, at the very least, immoral access to children.

I'll give you a good example. There was a young girl in my neighborhood, let's just call her Sam for short. Sam was petite, barely five feet tall, georgeous, A dark haired drum major, and a bit of a Tom boy. She was influenced by a recruiter who started visiting her school shortly after she turned 17. Under his wonderful guidance this adorable young person joined the Army after graduation just as soon as she had turned 18. Five months later Sam came home from Iraq in a flag drapped coffin. Her head had been blown off by an IED.

As for the veracity of the info above in Bold type ,many links have been posted previously, and I am not going to bother to prove the same information twice.