Is it possible to manipulate limits in equations?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the manipulation of limits in equations, particularly in the context of derivatives and the relationship between different limit notations. Participants explore whether limits can be treated algebraically and how to prove the equality between different limit expressions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the equality between the limits as \( x \) approaches \( x_0 \) and \( \Delta x \) approaches 0, suggesting that they can be shown to be equivalent through manipulation.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need to specify the functions involved when discussing limits and suggests that proofs should not rely solely on symbolic manipulation.
  • There is a discussion about whether limits can be manipulated like algebraic variables, with some participants arguing that this is not generally possible, while others suggest that it may be applicable for certain types of functions.
  • One participant provides an example of how to apply limits to an equation involving derivatives, indicating a need to transform limits appropriately.
  • Several participants agree that the notation used in some expressions does not make sense and highlight the importance of correctly relating \( x \) and \( \Delta x \) in limit processes.
  • There is a mention that converting limits as shown in the discussion is akin to algebra, with a focus on the relationship between \( x \) and \( \Delta x \) as \( x \) approaches \( x_0 \).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the manipulation of limits, with some asserting that limits can be treated algebraically under certain conditions, while others caution against this generalization. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader applicability of these manipulations.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the validity of manipulating limits may depend on the specific functions involved and theorems that have been proven. There is an acknowledgment of the limitations of symbolic manipulation in proving mathematical statements.

Jhenrique
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I believed the definitions of derivative that we know was really definitions
[tex]f'(x_0)=\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0}\frac{f(x)-f(x_0)}{x-x_0}[/tex]
[tex]f'(x_0)=\lim_{\Delta x\rightarrow 0}\frac{f(x_0+\Delta x)-f(x_0)}{\Delta x}[/tex]
But not, is one definition, just use the equality bellow in equations above...
[tex]\\ \Delta x=x-x_0 \\ x=x_0+\Delta x[/tex]

However, how proof the equality between limits?
[tex]\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0} \; \underset{=}{?} \; \lim_{\Delta x\rightarrow 0}[/tex]

Maybe by:
[tex]\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0}=\lim_{x-x_0\rightarrow x_0-x_0}=\lim_{\Delta x\rightarrow 0}[/tex]

What do you think about this? Is correct work with limit as if it is a equation?

EDIT: And more... Is possible to manipulate the limits like a algebric variable? I want say... move the limit from left side of equation to right side, apply a limit in equation that eliminate outher limit that already exist, know, use the limit like a function (and a function have a inverse function). What do you think??
 
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Jhenrique said:
However, how proof the equality between limits?
[tex]\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0} \; \underset{=}{?} \; \lim_{\Delta x\rightarrow 0}[/tex]

That notation doesn't make sense. You should specify the functions involved. To properly phrase your question, you should ask:

How do we prove:

[eq, 1] [itex]\lim_{x\rightarrow x_{0}} g(x) = \lim_{\Delta x \rightarrow 0} g(x + \Delta x)[/itex]


Maybe by:
[tex]\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0}=\lim_{x-x_0\rightarrow x_0-x_0}=\lim_{\Delta x\rightarrow 0}[/tex]

How you prove things depends on what theorems you have already proven. You seem to be seeking a proof that only uses the manipulation of symbols. Many important mathematical theorems cannot be proven just by manipulation of symbols. (Symbolic manipulation is an aid to thought, not a substitute for it.) One way to prove [eq. 1] is to write a proof consisting mostly of words. Another way is to use theorems about limits of the composition of functions, if your study materials have proven such theorems.



EDIT: And more... Is possible to manipulate the limits like a algebric variable? I want say... move the limit from left side of equation to right side, apply a limit in equation that eliminate outher limit that already exist, know, use the limit like a function (and a function have a inverse function). What do you think??

It is not possible in general. For special kinds of functions, you might be able to develop methods of symbolic manipulation that work. For example, in general [itex]lim_{x\rightarrow x_{0}} lim_{y\rightarrow y_{0}} f(x_0,y_0)[/itex] is not equal to [itex]lim_{y\rightarrow y_{0}} lim_{x\rightarrow x_{0}} f(x_0,y_0)[/itex]. However, for many types of functions, the two expressions are equal.
 
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Given:
[tex]\frac{f(x)-f(x_0)}{x-x_0}=\frac{f(x_0+\Delta x)-f(x_0)}{\Delta x}[/tex]
and applying one limit bellow in equation above
[tex]\\ \lim_{x\rightarrow x_0} \\ \lim_{\Delta x\rightarrow 0}[/tex]
then:
[tex]\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0} \frac{f(x)-f(x_0)}{x-x_0}=\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0} \frac{f(x_0+\Delta x)-f(x_0)}{\Delta x}[/tex]
So this I saw the need of know to transform the limits so that which equation have its apropried limit
 
Jhenrique said:
[tex]\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0} \frac{f(x)-f(x_0)}{x-x_0}=\lim_{x\rightarrow x_0} \frac{f(x_0+\Delta x)-f(x_0)}{\Delta x}[/tex]
So this I saw the need of know to transform the limits so that which equation have its apropried limit
The limit on the right doesn't make sense - there is no x anywhere. That limit should be as Δx → 0.

If Δx = x - x0, then as x → x0, Δx → 0. It might be that that's what you're asking about.
 
Yes, doesn't make sense. Exactly by this that it need to be manipuled: x → x₀ <=> x - x₀ → x₀ - x₀ <=> Δx → 0
 
Jhenrique said:
Yes, doesn't make sense. Exactly by this that it need to be manipuled: x → x₀ <=> x - x₀ → x₀ - x₀ <=> Δx → 0
So your question is answered?

BTW, the word is manipulated
 
So so, I'd like to know the your opinion about this. But, I already noticed that is possible work with limits in a equation.

Sorry I'm not american or british...
 
Jhenrique said:
Yes, doesn't make sense. Exactly by this that it need to be manipuled: x → x₀ <=> x - x₀ → x₀ - x₀ <=> Δx → 0

Jhenrique said:
So so, I'd like to know the your opinion about this. But, I already noticed that is possible work with limits in a equation.
Yes, you can convert limits as you show above. It's nothing more complicated than algebra. If Δx = x - x0, then as x approaches x0, Δx necessarily approaches 0.
 

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