Is It True That x Must Be Less Than or Equal to y If x Divides y?

S.R
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Question:
If x | y, (is true), then x ≤ y and x ≠ 0.

For instance, if x > y, then there are no integer solutions to equation kx = y and thus, x does not divide y.
Is this a correct proposition?
 
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S.R said:
Is this a correct proposition?
What do you think?
 
S.R said:
Question:
If x | y, (is true), then x ≤ y and x ≠ 0.

For instance, if x > y, then there are no integer solutions to equation kx = y and thus, x does not divide y.
Is this a correct proposition?
Up to sign, if you extend divisibility to the whole of ## \mathbb Z ##.
 
mfb said:
What do you think?
I suppose if x and y are negative, then the converse is true.
For instance, -2 | -4 is true, but -4 | -2 is false.
 
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S.R said:
Question:
If x | y, (is true), then x ≤ y and x ≠ 0.

For instance, if x > y, then there are no integer solutions to equation kx = y and thus, x does not divide y.
Is this a correct proposition?

S.R said:
I suppose if x and y are negative, then the converse is true.
For instance, -2 | -4 is true, but -4 | -2 is false.
Why aren't you using the usual definition of divisibility; i.e., For integers x and y, x | y iff y = kx for some integer k.
 
S.R said:
Question:
If x | y, (is true), then x ≤ y and x ≠ 0.

For instance, if x > y, then there are no integer solutions to equation kx = y and thus, x does not divide y.
Is this a correct proposition?
Happens to be correct, but merely a proposition unless you also prove it.
If x|y and x>y then there exists ##c\in\mathbb{Z}\setminus\{0\}## such that ##cx = y##. Figure out how this contradicts and you are home free :) Also, ##\mathbb{Z}## does not form a group under multiplication, so you can't "divide" both sides by some non zero scalar.
 
nuuskur said:
Happens to be correct, but merely a proposition unless you also prove it.
If x|y and x>y then there exists ##c\in\mathbb{Z}\setminus\{0\}## such that ##cx = y##. Figure out how this contradicts and you are home free :) Also, ##\mathbb{Z}## does not form a group under multiplication, so you can't "divide" both sides by some non zero scalar.

Assuming x, y ∈ N:
If x | y and x > y, then there exists an integer k such that kx = y or k = y/x.
However, since x > y, the expression y/x is not an integer.
Therefore, we can conclude x does not divide y, since no integer k exists such that kx = y.
 
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Were you operating with real numbers (in a complete ordered field) the statement ##k = \frac{y}{x}## is meaningful, but you can't do that if you are strictly operating within ##\mathbb{Z}##.
The conclusion is correct that there is no such integer ##k## that produces the desired result.
Alternatively we could use the given that ##x>y##. Let's look for a candidate ##k\in\mathbb{Z}## such that ##kx=y##
Since ##k## is an integer it can be expressed as a sum ##k :=\pm ( 1+1+...+1)## (there is actually a reason why this is true, but I don't want to burst the bubble)

Looking at positive integers first
Then ##kx = y## becomes ##(1+1+...+1)x = y##. Due to the distributive property the previous can also be written as ##x + x + ... + x = y##
But we already have that ##x>y## therefore ##x+x+...+x = y## can never be true.

And if we look in the negative integers then ##-x -x ..-x = y##. Under addition, ##\mathbb{Z}## does form a group, so we can say there exists ##-(-x) = x## such that ##x+(-x) = 0## and what would follow is ##y+x+x+...+x = 0##, which can only be true if ##y>x##, violating one of our established criteria.
The initial assumption that such an integer exists is therefore incorrect. And ##x|y## only if ##0\neq |x|\leq |y|##

In actuality, such divisibility is defined in a ring with no zero terms. A ring is an algebraic structure that forms an abelian group under addition, multiplication and addition are connected via the distributive property. A ring with no zero terms (can't be too sure of the English terminology here) is a ring where no two ring elements' product is 0.

We don't know anything about "dividing both sides by.." for this problem. There is no group under multiplication.EDIT: oop, You assumed x,y to be in N, then the negative integer part is unnecessary.
Actually, this proof contains inaccuracies, as well :/
 
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S.R said:
Assuming x, y ∈ N:
If x | y and x > y, then there exists an integer k such that kx = y or k = y/x.
If x | y, then it's not possible for x to be larger than y. "x divides y" means that x is a factor of y.
I don't get what you're trying to do here.
S.R said:
However, since x > y, the expression y/x is not an integer.
Therefore, we can conclude x does not divide y, since no integer k exists such that kx = y.
 
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Mark44 said:
I don't get what you're trying to do here.
Challenge the definition :D I agree, it's fruitless.
 
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