Is mass density a scalar or a scalar density of weight -1?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of mass density, specifically whether it should be classified as a scalar or as a scalar density of weight -1. Participants explore the implications of conservation of mass and the transformation properties of mass density and volume under coordinate changes.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that mass density is a scalar, noting that integrating mass density over a volume yields a scalar quantity.
  • Others argue that while mass density is often referred to as a scalar, it may actually transform like a scalar density of weight -1, given that volume transforms like a scalar density of weight 1.
  • One participant mentions that mass is an extensive variable while density is an intensive variable, suggesting a distinction between the two.
  • A later reply indicates that mass density in R^3 behaves as a well-defined scalar under coordinate transformations, remaining constant without picking up a density coefficient.
  • Another participant expresses confusion regarding the integration aspect and acknowledges a clearer understanding of mass density as a scalar after further discussion.
  • There is mention of tensor densities, with some participants suggesting that mass density has a tensor density of 0, while volume has a tensor density of 1.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether mass density should be classified strictly as a scalar or as a scalar density of weight -1. Multiple competing views remain regarding the transformation properties and definitions of mass density.

Contextual Notes

Some participants express confusion about the definitions and implications of mass density, indicating that the discussion may involve advanced concepts that require careful consideration of coordinate transformations and tensor properties.

Rearden
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Hi,

I'm a little confused as to the nature of mass density. I've always seen it referred to as a scalar. Now by conservation of mass, when you integrate mass density over a volume, you get a scalar quantity. But volume transforms like a scalar density of weight 1, so shouldn't mass density transform like a scalar density of weight -1?

Thanks,
Rearden
 
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Hi Rearden! :smile:
Rearden said:
… mass density. I've always seen it referred to as a scalar.

I've always seen volume referred to as a scalar, even though (as you say) it's actually a scalar density. :wink:

I think this is because people are almost always interested in whether something is scalar as opposed to vectorial (or tensorial etc) …

in that sense, volume is a scalar, and so is (mass) density. :smile:
 
Neither quantities are vectors (that goes without saying), so they must be scalar quantities. The difference is that Mass is an extensive variable and Density is an intensive variable.
 
Rearden said:
Hi,

I'm a little confused as to the nature of mass density. I've always seen it referred to as a scalar. Now by conservation of mass, when you integrate mass density over a volume, you get a scalar quantity. But volume transforms like a scalar density of weight 1, so shouldn't mass density transform like a scalar density of weight -1?

Thanks,
Rearden

Yes, but +1 or -1 doesn't matter because 1/(-1)=-1.
 
I've been confused by the given answers (and question) for some time, clem and Tiny and
sophiecentaur. Mass density in R^3 appears to be a well-behaved scalar. Under a general linear coordinate transformation it remains constant; it doesn't pick-up a 'density' coefficient. Mass, on the the other hand, is coordinate system dependent, and is not a simple scalar, so that in going from m to cm, say, it picks up a factor of 1000. Tensor density values are additive, so mass density has a tensor density of 0. Volume has a tensor density of 1, and mass therefore has a tensor density of 0+1=1.

The keywords seem to be density, extention, Jacobian (determinant), and tensor.
 
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Can I have a reference to "mass density" from someone, please?
Or does it just refer to things like kg m-3?

I have a feeling that this conversation may be at a higher level than I initially thought and I don't want to appear any more dumb than necessary!
 
Hi sophiecentaur! :smile:

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor_density" :wink:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Owch.
I did tensors in prehistoric times (1964) and managed to answer the questions correctly but none of us 'got' them, in my group.
I'll get my coat. . . . .
 
Sorry, I wasn't thinking hard enough about integration...I can see why it's an honest scalar now.
Thanks everyone!
 
  • #10
Phrak said:
I've been confused by the given answers (and question) for some time, clem and Tiny and
sophiecentaur. Mass density in R^3 appears to be a well-behaved scalar. Under a general linear coordinate transformation it remains constant; it doesn't pick-up a 'density' coefficient. Mass, on the the other hand, is coordinate system dependent, and is not a simple scalar, so that in going from m to cm, say, it picks up a factor of 1000. Tensor density values are additive, so mass density has a tensor density of 0. Volume has a tensor density of 1, and mass therefore has a tensor density of 0+1=1.

The keywords seem to be density, extention, Jacobian (determinant), and tensor.

Haha, you'll be back tomorrow sophiecentaur. Without your post I wouldn't have learned about 'intensive' and extensive'.

But wait a minute! Have I got this upside down and backwards? If I have a space filled with a substance having a density of 5 kg/m3, and change to centimeters, the value of the scalar changes from 5 to 5000, or kg/cm3.
 

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