Is perpetual motion truly impossible?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of perpetual motion and its feasibility, particularly in relation to thermodynamics and scientific paradigms. Participants explore historical perspectives, theoretical implications, and the distinction between free energy and perpetual motion.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant recalls textbooks suggesting that perpetual motion is not definitively impossible, prompting inquiry into current perspectives on the topic.
  • Another participant introduces the idea of thermal fluctuations and their implications for energy transfer, hinting at complexities in the discussion of perpetual motion.
  • A participant argues that the context of the perpetual motion statement is crucial, distinguishing between Newton's laws and thermodynamic laws, asserting that free energy from perpetual motion is impossible.
  • One contributor claims to have constructed a system that challenges traditional classifications of physical systems, suggesting that such systems could lead to destructive applications if misused.
  • Another participant counters the notion of perpetual motion by referencing the historical failure of numerous inventors to create a working perpetual motion machine, emphasizing reliance on empirical data.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the possibility of perpetual motion, with some suggesting it may not be impossible while others firmly assert its impossibility based on empirical evidence. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives present.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference historical and theoretical frameworks, including thermodynamics and scientific paradigms, without reaching consensus on definitions or implications of perpetual motion.

atal
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I found textbooks on physics (long time ago, when I was a student) where the authors said (paraphrase): "We do not assert that perpetual motion is impossible. It just hasn't been seen so far."
What do the mentors and contributors say about that statement?
(berkeman?)
 
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Think about the time it would take in terms of the age of the Solar System for a certain quantity of heat to be transferred from a cooler to a warmer body due to random thermal fluctuations.
 
It depends on the context of the statement. It could simply be talking About Newton's first law. But if it is talking about violations of the laws of thermo then it, or your recollection, is incorrect.

Edit: btw, the terms free energy and perpetual motion are not necessarily interchangeable. Free energy, if by which you mean due to perpetual motion, is impossible.
 
Thank you for your contributions.
Yes, it was about the second law; and it was in a book on thermodynamics.
And yes, I do refer to free energy as resulting from perpetual motion.
Not only is my recollection accurate, but I managed to prove that those authors had good intuition and open minds.

The opposition to perpetual motion, and the resultant free energy, is rooted in the paradigms. One of them is the classification of the physical systems into open and closed,
Think about a system which is ambiguous, fuzzy, with respect to those definitions.
I did construct that system.
But to apply it in life would mean utter destruction (misused).


I posed the question only for one reason: to see where the minds are today, years after Thomas Kuhn has broken ground on the scientific paradigms ("The philosophy of the scientific revolution")
 
atal said:
The opposition to perpetual motion, and the resultant free energy, is rooted in the paradigms.

No, it's rooted in the data. One data point is that thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of inventors have claimed to make a perpetual motion machine, and the number that have been shown to actually work is identically zero.

In any event perpetual motion discussions are not allowed on PF.
 

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