Is something wrong with my understanding of Liouville's Theorem?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around Liouville's Theorem in the context of non-dissipative classical systems and its implications for phase space volume and density over time. Participants explore a specific counterexample involving a spherically symmetric particle ensemble and question the validity of the theorem based on their calculations and interpretations.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a counterexample to Liouville's Theorem, suggesting that the phase space volume and density of an ensemble of classical particles change over time.
  • Another participant challenges the calculation of the volume of the described n-parallelopiped, questioning the validity of the initial claim.
  • A similar concern is raised regarding the calculations in a 2D phase space, indicating that the results would still present a problem for the theorem.
  • A later reply acknowledges a misunderstanding regarding the relationship between position space and momentum, suggesting that the initial interpretation of the problem was flawed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the calculations and interpretations of the phase space volume and density. There is no consensus on the validity of the counterexample presented, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their understanding and calculations, particularly regarding the dependence of position space on momentum and the implications for the ensemble's density. There are unresolved mathematical steps in the discussion.

fox26
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One version of Liouville’s Theorem for non-dissipative classical systems, governed by a conserved Hamiltonian, is that the volume in phase space (position-momentum space) of an ensemble of such systems (the volume is the Lebesgue measure of the set of points where the ensemble’s density is non-zero) does not vary with time. This is equivalent to the version of the Theorem which states that the density of systems along a flow line does not vary with time.

This so-called Theorem seems to be shown to be false by the following simple counterexample.

Let each system in the ensemble consist of one point or extended spherically symmetric non-rotating classical particle with mass 1 in an otherwise empty 3-dimensional Euclidean space. This system is non-dissipative and governed by a conserved Hamiltonian. The phase space is then a 6-dimensional space with 3 dimensions of space (position) and 3 of (linear) momentum. Let the ensemble in question at time t = 0 consist of such systems distributed with non-zero density d everywhere in a 6-dimensional hypercube with sides of length 1 (3 position, 3 momentum), centered on the origin and with sides parallel to the coordinate axes, and zero elsewhere. The ensemble’s phase space volume will then be 1, and its density d inside the cube and zero elsewhere. At time t = 1 the ensemble will have evolved to have non-zero density everywhere in a 6-dimensional rectilinear parallelepiped with edges still of length 1 in the 3 momentum coordinates, but of length 2 in the 3 position coordinates. The ensemble’s phase space volume will then be 8, and its average density d/8 inside the parallelepiped and zero elsewhere.

It seems that both the ensemble’s phase space volume and its phase space density have varied with time. Comments?
 
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I'm not convinced you have calculated the volume of this n-parallelopiped correctly. Would you agree that there is no problem in a 2d phase space ##(q,p)## using the same setup you prescribed in 6d?
 
Haborix said:
I'm not convinced you have calculated the volume of this n-parallelopiped correctly. Would you agree that there is no problem in a 2d phase space ##(q,p)## using the same setup you prescribed in 6d?

In 2d phase space the volume of the ensemble at t = 1 would be 2 and the average density d/2, still a problem. BTW, I just edited the post because I realized that at t = 1 the density, while non-zero everywhere in the parallelepiped of volume 8, won't be the same everywhere in it.
 
Lord Jestocost said:
Did you get something like Figure 1. (a) in
[PDF]
Liouville's Theorem - Inside Mines - Colorado School of Mines
No, but I should have. Your linked article has cleared up my confusion. I should have thought more about this problem, and realized that there was indeed something wrong with my (mis)understanding of the situation. I carelessly failed to realize that while the total position space in each dimension occupied by some system in the ensemble at t = 1 would be [-1,1], the space occupied by systems of any momentum p would depend on p, all systems with momentum p occupying a total position space interval of length only 1, whose center varied between -1/2 and +1/2 as p varied between -1/2 and +1/2. Thanks.
 

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