Is the change in heat energy zero in an ideal gas?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the change in heat energy in a perfectly insulated and sealed spherical vessel containing an air-fuel mixture that undergoes combustion. Participants explore the implications of the first law of thermodynamics in relation to heat transfer, work done, and changes in internal energy, particularly in the context of ideal gases versus real gases.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that since the vessel is perfectly insulated, there is no heat exchange with the environment, leading to the conclusion that Q=0.
  • Others argue that the combustion process increases the internal energy of the system, suggesting that Q should be positive due to the conversion of chemical energy to heat energy.
  • A participant claims that the first law of thermodynamics implies that if Q=0 and W=0, then ΔU must also be zero, which contradicts the idea of an increase in internal energy.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between internal energy, temperature, and volume, with some participants questioning how internal energy can depend on volume.
  • One participant clarifies that for ideal gases, internal energy is primarily a function of temperature, while for real gases, volume can also influence internal energy due to molecular interactions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the correct interpretation of heat energy change and internal energy in the context of the problem. Multiple competing views remain about whether Q can be considered zero and how internal energy relates to volume.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of heat, work, and internal energy in the context of the first law of thermodynamics. The discussion also highlights the distinction between ideal and real gases, which may affect the conclusions drawn.

Monsterboy
Messages
305
Reaction score
96

Homework Statement


A perfectly insulated and sealed spherical vessel contains an air-fuel mixture,somehow the mixture is made to burn causing a rise in temperature of the vessel and it's contents.

Homework Equations


Then which of the following is correct?
A) Q=0 ,W=0 ,u=0
B)Q +ve ,W=0 ,u=+ve
C) Q=0 ,W=0 , u +ve

Q-amount of heat input to the system
W-work done by the system
u- change in internal energy.

3. The Attempt at a Solution

I feel the solution is B .As the chemical energy is converted to heat energy ,amount of heat energy is increased within the system. As the increase in heat energy leads to more energy for molecular motion it leads to an increase in internal energy.

The answer that was given to me was C , can we claim that Q=0 is correct ? just because the heat generated due to the ignition of the air-fuel mixture is inside a perfectly insulted and sealed container does that mean there is no increase in heat energy within the system ?

I know that change in total energy inside the system is zero because it is perfectly insulated and sealed, but that does that mean change in heat energy is zero ? ( we know that chemical energy converted to heat energy)
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Monsterboy said:
The answer that was given to me was C , can we claim that Q=0 is correct ?
Yes. There is no energy interchange with the environment since you have a "perfectly insulated and sealed spherical vessel".
 
Actually, answer C is incorrect (with all due respect to whomever gave you that as the answer). Svein has already pointed out that Q is zero, since Q represents the heat transferred from the surroundings to the system. And W is zero, since the walls of your system are rigid. So, from the first law of thermodynamics, ΔU = 0. So, C can't be correct because it violates the first law of thermodynamics.

The correct answer is A. In a system where chemical reaction takes place, the internal energy is a function not only of temperature and volume, but also a function of the number of moles of each species that is present. And, since, with a chemical reaction, the number of moles of the various species in the final state of the system is different from the initial state, the temperature has to change to offset the difference between the internal energies of the product species and the internal energies of the reactant species (in a way such that the overall internal energy remains constant).

Chet
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Monsterboy
Thanks.
 
Chestermiller said:
the internal energy is a function not only of temperature and volume,
Internal energy is a function of volume? How?
 
Monsterboy said:
Internal energy is a function of volume? How?
The real question is, how not? You are aware that internal energy of a material is a point function of state, correct? So how many intensive physical properties of a gas or liquid (of constant composition) do you need to specify in order to establish its thermodynamic state (and thus its internal energy)? (Here are some intensive physical properties for you to consider: temperature, pressure, specific volume.)

You are thinking of an ideal gas, where the internal energy is a function only of temperature, right? That's because, for a real gas in the ideal gas limit (low pressures), the molecules are too far apart to interact with each other energetically. However, as you decrease the specific volume, the molecules get closer together, and the potential energy interactions between the molecules begins to contribute to its internal energy.

Chet
 
Chestermiller said:
You are thinking of an ideal gas, where the internal energy is a function only of temperature, right?
Yes , I seemed have developed a habit of assuming the gas to be ideal when I shouldn't.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
23
Views
5K
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
4K
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K