Is the Constancy of Light in Vacuum a Proof or a Postulate?

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The discussion centers on Einstein's postulation that the speed of light in a vacuum is constant for all observers, which is derived from Maxwell's equations. While these equations suggest that the electric and magnetic constants remain unchanged regardless of the observer's motion, the confusion arises from the implications of relative motion on light speed. Participants highlight that Einstein treated the constancy of light speed as an independent postulate to reconcile it with the principles of relativity, despite it being consistent with Maxwell's theory. The conversation also touches on historical perspectives, noting that earlier physicists believed light's speed would vary based on the aether's motion, a notion challenged by the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment. Ultimately, the dialogue reflects on the evolution of understanding regarding the relationship between light speed, electromagnetic theory, and the framework of relativity.
  • #31


Boorglar said:
Actually now that I think about it, its the other way around. I'm confused, now, because since no matter at what speed you move, you obviously will measure the same electric and magnetic constants, and so light ought to have the same speed. But as you move faster, your speed is added to that of the light and so you should see light moving faster. Since we know this is false, it would follow that the e/m constants are not, in fact, constants?
Can someone clarify that to me?
If Newton's Laws as written in Principia were precisely true, applying to both ordinary matter and this hypothetical ether scientists believed in, the electric and magnetic constants could be constant only for an observer in the inertial frame where the ether is stationary. There would be a one specific frame where Maxwell's equations could be written in the simplest form. It didn't matter whether or not there really is an ether. By the logical argument that you just gave, Maxwell's equations could be written in a simple form in only one frame. I will call this hypothetical unique frame the "ether frame", even though there may be no ether. If Newton's Laws are precisely valid, the constants are not invariant because the change for observers other than the ether frame.
This also assumes that the measuring instruments are unaffected by the motion relative to the ether frame. This si consistent with Principia. However, Maxwell's equations may not be consistent with Principia. More on that later.
Maxwell's equations would not be valid as currently written in any other frame except one. An experimenter moving at a nonzero constant velocity with respect to that one frame would find different electric and magnetic constants from those of that one "proper frame". In fact, he would probably have to replace those constant numbers by constant matrices.
There was no experiment that showed this wouldn't be true. However, what bothered Einstein is the idea that the "constants" would be different for two observers moving at a constant velocity with respect to each other.
To visualize the problem, imaging that you moving at the speed of light with reference to the "ether frame". Suppose you hold up a mirror that relative to your eyes is in the direction of motion. You couldn't see your reflection! You also probably drop dead since your body has evolved for the electromagnetic constants being what they are on earth.
So this bothered Einstein. However, there is another reason to doubt the Principia. The reason is that the forces that hold bodies together are largely electromagnetic. Therefore, their dimensions and even their movements have to be affected by this speed relative to the ether!
Imagine that extended bodies are held together by a combination of electromagnetic and nonelectromagnetic forces. Our bodies contain a number of electrically charged particles. Using the laws of electromagnetic forces, it is easy to see that when in motion one particle will apply a force to the other particle. You can use the Law of Biot and Savart, the Lortentz force law, and anything else you want. Motion with respect to the ether frame will cause a stress on the extent body that will affect both its dimensions and its motion. For instance, an electrical coil moving with respect to the ether frame should experience a torque. Furthermore, a material that is not birefringen should show birefringence if it is in motion relative to the ether frame.
Efforts were made to measure this stress. There were two scientists, Raleight and Brace, that tried to measure the force on an electrical coil caused by the Earth's motion. This was an experiment not as well known as the Michaelson-Morley experiment. They had a null result that was just as important.
Experimental results indicated that Principia couldn't hold for electrical measurements.The motion of an electrical coil doesn't cause a torque on itself! A nonbirefringent material is nonbirefringent at all speeds!
I got the references to this from a paper by Lorentz. However, I have never found a copy of these experiments. They are just as important as the Michaelson Morley experiment. Yet, I can't find a copy. Maybe you will have better luck.
Null result on measuring the birefringence of an isotropic material in motion.
1) Rayleigh, Phil. Mag. 6(4), 678 (1902).
2) Brace, Phil. Mag. 6(7), 317 (1904)
Null result on measuring the torque on an electrical coil:
3) Troughton and Noble, Roy. Soc. Trans. A 202, 165 (1903).
Experiments 1-3 showed clearly that Principia was faulty.
The problem comes about because measuring instruments are extended bodies! Suppose and observer calibrates his measuring instruments, both rulers and clocks, in the ether frame. Some other observer moving at a constant velocity relative to the first observer grabs those measuring instruments, and accelerates them to his velocity. The internal forces will distort those measuring instruments!
He may try to calibrate them by a series of timing experiments. However, most timing experiments require synchronization of clocks using electrically charged particles. Thus, it appears impossible to calibrate measuring instruments that contain electrically charged particles or electromagnetic radiation.This includes every measuring instrument ever invented, then and now! The presence of nonelectromagnetic forces doesn't change things, because some distortion remains as long as any electromagnetic force is used.
Furthermore, there is a contradiction if both Principia and Maxwell's equations are used. The third law of motion is written in present tense. So Principia implies that the action and the reaction have to occur simultaneously. Maxwell's equations implies a delay in electromagnetic forces consistent with the speed of light. So they both can't be true under all conditions. Either Principia or Maxwell's equations or both are a little bit wrong.
H. A. Lorentz did a complete analysis on how the electromagnetic stress of motion would effect rulers and clocks. It turned out that the rulers and clocks would behave just as Einstein described in special relativity.
However, I will just write down the names of these articles where H. A. Lorentz put down his theory of electrons.
4) "Electromagnetic phenomena in a system moving with any velocity smaller than that of light," by Hendrik Lorentz. Proceedings of the Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences, 809-831 (1904).
5) "The Theory of Electrons" by Hendrik Lorentz (1915).

There are copies of 4 and 5 free on the Internet. Someone on this forum listed them.
Lorentz only varied from Principia in one regard. He assumed that the forces holding things together have a minimum delay given by the speed of light. It is this delay that makes the measuring instruments act in a "relativistic" way.

In any case, your conundrum is resolved when you consider the stress in a measuring instrument caused by the motion of the measuring instrument. The atomic components of clocks and rulers interact with each other to distort the measurements in a way consistent with relativity.
If all forces are Lorentz invariant, then the changes in the dynamics of the particles that comprise a measuring instrument causes the measurements to determine the same electromagnetic constants in any frame. Furthermore, the speed of light delay in the forces makes it impossible to determine which of the frames is an ether frame.
 
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  • #32


'Simultaineous' is a hairy concept in relativity. No, the Jupiter and ship observers do not agree that light reaches Earth at the same time that the ship reaches Mars. That's why your maths is wrong.

The usual way to show this is a train of length 2L passing through a station. You are on the train in the exact middle; I am on the platform again. At the instant we pass, lightning strikes the front and back of the train. I see the light from that at time L/c and am able to calculate backwards and determine that the flashes occurred simultaneously. I can also see that you, moving at speed v, saw the flash from the front at time L/(v+c) and the one from the back at time L/(c-v). Not simultaneous. The same thing would occur with the sound, of course, but the special thing about light is that c is constant in all frames. You may consider yourself at rest. Since the flashes occurred equal distances away but you did not see them at the same time, they must not have been simultaneous in your frame.

I am not sure off the top of my head if you can derive the Lorentz transforms directly from this argument - possibly. I also cannot view Lugita's attachment on this phone, but I guess that will explain it fully.
 
  • #33


Boorglar said:
Yes this makes perfect sense. But then what bothers me is that when the speed of the train approaches c, then you can no longer add v*t in the equation, and I don't know how to reason it out.
You can (and must!) if you use the reference frame in which the train is moving; there is nothing to "reason out".
Say you are in a spaceship moving with speed v. Next to you comes a ray of light in vacuum with speed c. Now normal intuition would suggest that you will see the ray racing against you at speed c - v. Relativity theory says this is impossible.
That's a common confusion which stems from the fact that in Newtonian mechanics it's harmless to confound a switch of reference system (= a transformation) with a difference of velocities (= a subtraction). This is because the so-called "Galilean transformation" is numerically identical to calculating a velocity difference. In SR that is not the case and so you have to distinguish those.

Thus we have to rephrase your question (which immediately answers it!) as either:

Say you are in a spaceship moving with speed v relative to Earth, but consider yourself in rest - you set up a "ship reference system" S'. Next to you comes a ray of light in vacuum with speed c according to S'. Now normal intuition would suggest that you will see the ray racing against you at speed c, as Relativity theory also says.

or:

Say you are in a spaceship moving with speed v according to reference system S. Next to you comes a ray of light in vacuum with speed c according to S. Now normal intuition would suggest that you will see the ray racing against you at speed c - v. Relativity theory says this is what you will "observe" if you stick to using reference system S.

PS the topic "constant speed of light" is in discussion in a parallel thread, see my last posting there:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=4000881
 
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  • #34


well this gets pretty hard, I guess... I suppose I'll have to study more electricity and special relativity to understand all that stuff better :P For the moment it's beyond my head, without a solid background.

Thanks for the replies, though! They are very informative.
 
  • #35


lugita15 said:
But then Poincare demonstrated that the Lorentz transformations relate not only the aether frame to a moving frame, but also related moving frames to each other. (Specifically, he showed that the composition of LT's is an LT, and the inverse of an LT is an LT.)

So, as a newbie, is this saying Lorenz transforms form a group? With the operator being Lorenz composition? The corollary would be any Lorenz transform must have c as the speed limit.
 
  • #36
Devils said:
So, as a newbie, is this saying Lorenz transforms form a group? [..]
I did not understand the part that I left out, but yes, Poincare (who was first of all a mathematician) emphasized that these transformations form a group.
- https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Dynamics_of_the_Electron_%28June%29
 
  • #37


"It is, in fact, possible to derive the Lorentz transformations from the principle of relativity alone and obtain the constancy of the speed of light as a consequence."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_relativity

This is interesting. Can somebody point me to a proof?
 
  • #38


Devils said:
"It is, in fact, possible to derive the Lorentz transformations from the principle of relativity alone and obtain the constancy of the speed of light as a consequence."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_relativity

This is interesting. Can somebody point me to a proof?

The statement in WP is footnoted to a 2004 paper by Friedman, which I don't have access to. But I think they are probably referring to an argument that, in various forms, dates back to 1911:

W.v.Ignatowsky, Phys. Zeits. 11 (1911) 972
Rindler, Essential Relativity: Special, General, and Cosmological, 1979, p. 51
Morin, Introduction to Classical Mechanics, Cambridge, 1st ed., 2008, Appendix I
Palash B. Pal, "Nothing but Relativity," http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0302045v1
http://www.lightandmatter.com/html_books/0sn/ch07/ch07.html (my own presentation)
 
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  • #39


OK I can see that there has to be a universal speed limit, but why does this have to be the speed of light (or other electromagnetic waves)? What implies that light must travel at a constant speed anyway (waves in water can have various speeds)?
 
  • #40


Devils said:
OK I can see that there has to be a universal speed limit, but why does this have to be the speed of light (or other electromagnetic waves)? What implies that light must travel at a constant speed anyway (waves in water can have various speeds)?

Water waves have a speed relative to the water. The speed of light in a vacuum can't be relative to anything, because there isn't any medium for it to be relative to.
 
  • #41


Devils said:
"It is, in fact, possible to derive the Lorentz transformations from the principle of relativity alone and obtain the constancy of the speed of light as a consequence."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_relativity

This is interesting. Can somebody point me to a proof?
Instead I can point to a counter claim in that same encyclopedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...rentz_transformation_without_second_postulate
In fact, that should be obvious: Classical mechanics has the PoR but with the Galilean transformations.
 
  • #42


Devils said:
OK I can see that there has to be a universal speed limit, but why does this have to be the speed of light (or other electromagnetic waves)? What implies that light must travel at a constant speed anyway (waves in water can have various speeds)?
That was based on observation combined with Maxwell's theory which models light as a wave with constant speed, similar to the speed of sound in a homogeneous medium.
 
  • #43


bcrowell said:
Water waves have a speed relative to the water. The speed of light in a vacuum can't be relative to anything, because there isn't any medium for it to be relative to.

harrylin said:
Instead I can point to a counter claim in that same encyclopedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...rentz_transformation_without_second_postulate
In fact, that should be obvious: Classical mechanics has the PoR but with the Galilean transformations.
So the implication here is that if we have 'something' that doesn't travel relative to anything, this 'something' has to travel at the 'universal speed limit' (this is probably provable). Light in a vacuum is an example of this 'something'; are there any others (gravitons?)

Also the speed of light in a vacuum is an axiom, rather than being able to be derivable; even Pauli thought so.
 
  • #44


Devils said:
So the implication here is that if we have 'something' that doesn't travel relative to anything [..]
Instead, and sticking with the topic, the model that is used is that of Maxwell, according to which light propagates at speed c relative to a "stationary" frame, or "space":

"light is always propagated in empty space with a definite velocity c which is independent of the state of motion of the emitting body"
"Any ray of light moves in the “stationary” system of co-ordinates with the determined velocity c, whether the ray be emitted by a stationary or by a moving body."

- Einstein 1905

"We [..] assume that the clocks can be adjusted in such a way that the propagation velocity of every light ray in vacuum - measured by means of these clocks - becomes everywhere equal to a universal constant c, provided that the coordinate system is not accelerated.
- Einstein 1907

Einstein explained it as follows in 1907:

" It is by no means self-evident that the assumption made here, which we will call the "principle of the constancy of the velocity of light", is actually realized in nature, but - at least for a coordinate system in a certain state of motion - it is made plausible by the confirmation of the Lorentz theory [1895], which is based on the assumption of an ether that is absolutely at rest, through experiment". [footnote refers to Fizeau's experiment]

And with the PoR this model can be used for any inertial frame:
"the phenomena of electrodynamics as well as of mechanics possesses no properties corresponding to the idea of absolute rest"
- Einstein 1905
 
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  • #45


Devils said:
Also the speed of light in a vacuum is an axiom, rather than being able to be derivable; even Pauli thought so.

Whether it's a postulate or a theorem depends on what system of axioms you pick. We have a FAQ about this: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=534862
 
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  • #46


(Sorry to derail this thread).

So to summarise
- we start with a Euclidean space
- we introduce a "speed limit", which is light, which leads to hyperbolic functions (and hyperbolic identities), which leads to the Lorenz transform
- normally distance = speed * time, but the speed limit distorts this as well, to dilate time

So special relativity is a dressed-up version of hyperbolic algebra. I think it really is that simple, I don't know why people want to make it so complicated.
 

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