Is the Otto Cycle Reversible with Ideal Gas Assumptions?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the reversibility of the Otto Cycle under ideal gas assumptions. Participants explore the theoretical aspects of reversible processes, the implications of efficiency comparisons with the Carnot Cycle, and the nature of the processes involved in the Otto Cycle, including isochoric expansion and compression.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that while reversible isochoric processes are theoretically possible, the Otto Cycle cannot be reversible due to its lower efficiency compared to the Carnot Cycle.
  • Another participant questions whether the discussion refers to the expansion of combustion products or the conversion of chemical potential to thermal energy, indicating a distinction between different processes.
  • A participant proposes that for an ideal gas to expand under constant volume in a reversible manner, many heat reservoirs with infinitesimal temperature differences would be necessary, implying that the Otto Cycle cannot operate reversibly between two heat reservoirs.
  • Another participant argues that while a real Otto cycle is not reversible due to combustion and pumping losses, the ideal air standard Otto cycle can be considered reversible if all four processes are treated as reversible.
  • There is confusion regarding the description of gas expansion under constant volume, with a participant seeking clarification on whether this refers to pressure changes during heat addition or rejection.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the reversibility of the Otto Cycle, with some asserting it cannot be reversible while others argue that the idealized version can be considered reversible. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the conditions under which reversibility may or may not apply.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made about the ideal gas behavior and the definitions of reversible processes. The discussion also highlights the complexity of real versus ideal cycles and the implications of efficiency comparisons.

Harmony
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Theoretically, we can have reversible isochoric expansion and isochoric compression. Is Otto Cycle reversible then?

I read that the efficiency of all reversible engine between two heat reservoir would have the same efficiency. However, since the efficiency of an Otto Cycle is lower than Carnot Cycle, it cannot be reversible.

How do I resolve this problem? Thanks in advanced.
 
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Are you referring to the process whereby the hot combustion products are allowed to expand, cool and perform work? Or to the preceding different process whereby chemical potential is let change directly into thermal energy, in a spontaneous (and somewhat uncontrolled in comparison to fuel cells) manner?
 
I refer to the first process, but a hypothetical ideal one where it is reversible. After some thought, I think that in order for an ideal gas to expand under constant volume and yet be reversible, there will have to be many heat reservoir, with infinitesimal small difference in temperature. Hence the reversible Otto Cycle will not be operating between two heat reservoir.

As for an Otto Engine operating between two heat reservoir, the process must be irreversible.

Is my reasoning correct?
 
Well a real Otto cycle is in no way reversible as you have the messy business of combustion and pumping losses.

However the ideal air standard otto cycle can be considered reversible as each of the 4 processes are reversible. I don't get what you mean when you say that the gas expands under constant volume (it just seems a funny way of describing the process), are you referring only to the increase in pressure at heat addition/rejection? As contant volume heat addition is reversible between two heat reservoirs.

I'm in the process of moving back home to all my books are packed so I can't read up to check.
 
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