Is the principle of minimum action applicable to nonholonomic systems?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the applicability of the principle of minimum action, also referred to as the principle of least action or Hamilton's principle, to nonholonomic systems. Participants explore the theoretical implications and distinctions between nonholonomic and classical systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the principle of minimum action is applicable to nonholonomic systems and seeks clarification on the topic.
  • Another participant corrects the terminology, suggesting that "principle of least action" is the more modern expression.
  • A third participant identifies the principle as Hamilton's principle in classical mechanics.
  • A later post provides links to external resources and outlines several complex differences between nonholonomic systems and classical Hamiltonian or Lagrangian systems, noting that nonholonomic systems are nonvariational and arise from the Lagrange-d'Alembert principle rather than Hamilton's principle. It also mentions issues related to momentum preservation, the non-Poisson nature of nonholonomic systems, and the implications for phase space volume preservation.
  • Another participant expresses gratitude for the provided resources and acknowledges the complexity of the issue.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion reflects a lack of consensus on the applicability of the principle of minimum action to nonholonomic systems, with multiple competing views and interpretations presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that nonholonomic systems exhibit unique characteristics that differentiate them from classical systems, including variational properties and implications for momentum and phase space dynamics. These distinctions may influence the applicability of the principle of least action.

ORF
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Hello

Is the principle of minimum action applicable to nonholonomic systems? Why?

If this question is already answered in this forum, just tell me, and I will delete this thread.

Thank you for your time :)

Greetings
PS: My mother language is not English, so I'll be glad if you correct any mistake.
 
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ORF said:
principle of minimum action
Sorry, that was an old expression; the modern one is "principle of least action" (or stationary action).

Greetings.
 
It is known as Hamilton's principle in classical mechanics :)

Greetings.
 
I googled the terms, and found

http://www.ingvet.kau.se/juerfuch/kurs/amek/prst/11_nhco.pdf

http://www2.cds.caltech.edu/~blochbk/mechanics_and_control/survey/2005-02-07_survey_fullrefs.pdf.
"There are some fascinating differences between nonholonomic systems and classical Hamiltonian or Lagrangian systems. Among other things: Nonholonomic systems are nonvariational - they arise from the Lagrange-d'Alembert principle and not from Hamilton's principle; while energy is preserved for nonholonomic systems, momentum is not always preserved for systems with symmetry (i.e., there is nontrivial dynamics associated with the nonholonomic generalization of Noether's theorem); nonholonomic systems are almost Poisson but not Poisson (i.e., there is a bracket which together with the energy on the phase space defines the motion, but the bracket generally does not satisfy the Jacobi identity); and finally, unlike the Hamiltonian setting, volume may not be preserved in the phase space, leading to interesting asymptotic stability in some cases, despite energy conservation."
 
Hello

Thank you so much for the links. I didn't know that this issue was so complex :)

Greetings.
 

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