Is the Universe Really Expanding or Just Revolving Around a Central Gravity?

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I want to start with a question that is universe is really expanding? According to my view it is to be like this: (To get this one should be well versed in Doppler’s effect)

Suppose we had gone to Mars & placed a light source there & came back. Now we know orbital velocity of Earth is more than that of mars, so as a result Earth moves away from it. Now observe the spectrum of the light of Mars we will defiantly got red shift. Now suppose we do similar experiment with Venus we will get blue shift as Earth is approaching toward it.

Now similarly it can be assumed that galaxies in stead of getting away as we are assuming at present are also revolving around a centeral body of gravitational force which tends to infinity. So we are getting red shift as we are getting away from it (in our frame), also there will be a galaxy from which we are getting blue shift(just as in case of Venus).
So we can assume that, universe is not expanding but galaxies are revolving around a body of high gravity.

If, that was the practical which showed that Universe is epanding, so it may be wrong; or the method was different.
 
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Hi shanu! Assumptions will trip you up. There is no center of gravity in this universe. Countless studies have ruled out that possibility.
 
shanu_bhaiya said:
I want to start with a question that is universe is really expanding? According to my view it is to be like this: (To get this one should be well versed in Doppler’s effect)

Suppose we had gone to Mars & placed a light source there & came back. Now we know orbital velocity of Earth is more than that of mars, so as a result Earth moves away from it. Now observe the spectrum of the light of Mars we will defiantly got red shift. Now suppose we do similar experiment with Venus we will get blue shift as Earth is approaching toward it.
The problem is that the Earth is not always moving away from Mars or towards Venus. Sometimes the Earth is catching up to Mars in its orbit and we would see a blue shift, and there are times after Venus has passed us in its orbit and we will get a red shift from it.
Now similarly it can be assumed that galaxies in stead of getting away as we are assuming at present are also revolving around a centeral body of gravitational force which tends to infinity. So we are getting red shift as we are getting away from it (in our frame), also there will be a galaxy from which we are getting blue shift(just as in case of Venus).
But then there would be a distinct pattern to the shifts. Galaxies "inward" and "behind" us, and galaxies "outward" and "ahead" of us would show a blue shift, while qalaxies in the opposite quadrants would show a red shift.
Instead, we see galaxies with increasing red shifts with distance in all directions, with no such pattern.
So we can assume that, universe is not expanding but galaxies are revolving around a body of high gravity.

If, that was the practical which showed that Universe is epanding, so it may be wrong; or the method was different.

Since the distribution of red shifted galaxies doesn't match that which would be required by your suggestion, we can conclude that it has no validity.
 
Affirming what Janus said. There is absolutely no evidence of bias in the redshift of galaxies with respect to our galaxy.
 
A vast number of people get easily carried away by Hubble's expanding law theory. Could I just point out that red and blue shifts do not necessarily mean 'expanding'. Galaxies could be simply moving away or towards us without relying on the possibility of a universe expansion.

Chronos said:
There is no center of gravity in this universe.

We're invariably assuming to know a great deal about a 'center of gravity', even when this is corroborated by scientists' claims to test the untestable. If Astrophysics has taught us one thing about the universe is that we can never state with absolute confidence that we know things for a fact. This applies for or against theories.

How would we know for instance, that red and blue shifts are not caused by quasars present at the center of galaxies? We don't even know for sure what these objects are, why should we formulate things for or against it?
 
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DM said:
How would we know for instance, that red and blue shifts are not caused by quasars present at the center of galaxies? We don't even know for sure what these objects are, why should we formulate things for or against it?
Gravitational redshift in quasars cannot account for high redshifts (higher than ~ 3) if the objects we are observing are gravitationally stable. On the other hand, you should note that redshift is not the only proof for expansion of space; alternative models must explain also things like the variation of the surface brightness, the variation of the angular diameter, the cosmological time dilation, etc.
 
Galaxies could be simply moving away or towards us without relying on the possibility of a universe expansion.

Are you referring to the Milne Universe -- that is, a universe in which a spacetime itself isn't expanding, but the objects within it are? If so, this has been ruled out by observational data. Specifically, it mispredicts the current expansion rate.
How would we know for instance, that red and blue shifts are not caused by quasars present at the center of galaxies?

What do you mean? The gravitational field of a quasar is not strong enough to redshift an entire galaxy's light.
We don't even know for sure what these objects are, why should we formulate things for or against it?

We're pretty confident that quasars are accreting black holes. I've not met any mainstream astrophysicists who think otherwise.
 
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SpaceTiger said:
We're pretty confident that quasars are accreting black holes. I've not met any mainstream astrophysicists who think otherwise.

Yes, indeed they are accreting discs but can you honestly tell me that all astrophysicists strongly believe in this giant black hole? There is plenty of controversy revolving around this particular problem. You say you have not met any mainstream astrophysicist attempting to disprove it. I'm quite surprised as all I have to do is open up acclaimed Astrophysics books - mainly university textbooks - and find information addressing the validity of these theories. Finally allow me to point out that the reason it leads most astrophysicists to believe it's a black hole, is purely down to the similar theory applied to independent black holes. And indeed it does seem the objects present at the center of galaxies exhibit alike behaviours to black holes BUT can you prove it? Can anyone prove it?
Show me hard evidence, not theories.

Did you know there are astrophysicists who do not believe in black holes? That they believe in something else?

Am I one of them? No, I'm certainly not but all I'm saying is that one needs to be awfully careful when claiming up things. Theories are proven to be right in certain situations/cases but again, our knoweldge about the universe is 90% - if not more - dependent on theories.

I'm not trying to wage a war here, not my character at all, in fact I would never compare myself to you guys - extremely qualified etc - but it does disappoint me somehow when scientists don't reflect upon these little things. Little things that I would regard awfully big.
 
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Could I just clarify that those textbooks do not disprove nor approve the theory of black holes at the center of galixies. They do mention of such theories but do emphasize the absence of hard material, hence why almost all of them advice readers not to strongly believe in them.
 
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  • #10
DM said:
Yes, indeed they are accreting discs but can you honestly tell me that all astrophysicists strongly believe in this giant black hole?

There are usually a few naysayers, but the vast majority (and all that I've met) do believe they're black holes. The event horizon of a black hole has not been directly observed (it's an extremely difficult observation to make), but we have observed objects that behave very much like black holes in every other way. Also, we've ruled out all other objects expected from mainstream theory, so if it's not a black hole, one will need a new theory to describe it.
There is plenty of controversy revolving around this particular problem. You say you have not met any mainstream astrophysicist attempting to disprove it.

Scientists do not usually (and are not supposed to) approach problems with the intention of proving or disproving a particular theory. There are scientists who are trying to observe near the event horizon of black holes, but not with the specific intention of disproving any theory. There are also physicists who are working on alternatives to black holes, but to my knowledge, they're not taken very seriously in the physics community.
I'm quite surprised as all I have to do is open up acclaimed Astrophysics books - mainly university textbooks - and find information addressing the validity of these theories.

Could you be a bit more specific? Which theories? How old are the books?

The evidence for black holes has increased quite a lot in the last decade because of the observations of supermassive objects at the centers of galaxies. As I said before, we haven't proven that black holes exactly like those in GR exist in the universe (we'd have to observe near the event horizon), so it would be irresponsible for the textbook authors to say that we have. That doesn't mean, however, that the astrophysics community isn't sold on the idea. Every recent theoretical paper about quasars that I can think of works under the assumption that they're accreting black holes.
And indeed it does seem the objects present at the center of galaxies exhibit alike behaviours to black holes BUT can you prove it? Can anyone prove it?

We can never prove a theory 100% -- we can always measure to higher precision or in more repetitions. In the mind of an astrophysicist, the real question is, do these objects behave like black holes in the regimes we can test? This question is particularly relevant to the issue you brought up, as you suggested that black holes at the centers of galaxies could cause light from the entire galaxy to redshift. This is absurd and certainly ruled out by observations.

As time goes on, we'll be able to test the black hole theory to higher precision and perhaps (in fact, I hope) there will be some surprises. Any discrepancies, however, should only be observable near the black hole.
Did you know there are astrophysicists who do not believe in black holes? That they believe in something else?

I don't doubt it, I just said I'd never met one. If I do, I'll be curious to hear what they have to say.
I'm not trying to wage a war here, not my character at all, in fact I would never compare myself to you guys - extremely qualified etc - but it does disappoint me somehow when scientists don't reflect upon these little things. Little things that I would regard awfully big.

For someone who's not trying to wage a war, I find your statements puzzling. You said,

We don't even know for sure what these objects are, why should we formulate things for or against it?

...suggesting that until we were 100% sure about a theory, it wasn't worth exploring. That's really reaching, don't you think? In fact, the original topic of discussion was the expanding universe paradigm, for which there is much, much more evidence than the existence of black holes. The whole point that I was trying to make in my original response to you was that there are currently no other explanations for cosmological redshift that are being explored in the mainstream and that you were making it seem deceptively simple to concoct a viable alternative.

The idea here is similar to the one ZZ was making in this thread:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=112820"

Science is not about belief in the usual religious or casual sense. Scientists form their "opinions" through consideration of the experimental/observational evidence that's available, not by a flight of fancy. The standard model of cosmology is no exception. If it were a simple matter to explain cosmological observations in some other way, then we would be actively trying to distinguish between those models. As it stands right now, we're trying to make high-precision measurements of the parameters of the standard model -- many steps beyond proving expansion.

Just because you're only familiar with a particular part of the picture (say, the redshifting of light) doesn't mean that there isn't more to the story. In short, give us a little credit.
 
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  • #11
There is at least one paper which addresses the experimential issue of whether or not the objects we are calling black holes have event horizons. The evidence is not currently strong enough to absolute rule out all other possibilities, but it is consitent with and strongly suggests that black holes do have event horizons. The fundamental idea for the test is very simple - if light cannot escape from the surface of black holes, black holes should be darker than other sorts of objects with strong gravity (i.e neutron stars). Experiment confirms this prediction.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0107387

We discuss new observations of X-ray novae which provide strong evidence that black holes have event horizons. Optical observations of 13 X-ray novae indicate that these binary stars contain collapsed objects too heavy to be stable neutron stars. The objects have been identified as black hole candidates. X-ray observations of several of these X-ray novae in quiescence with the Chandra X-ray Observatory show that the systems are approximately 100 times fainter than nearly identical X-ray novae containing neutron stars. The advection-dominated accretion flow model provides a natural explanation for the difference. In this model, the accreting gas reaches the accretor at the center with a large amount of thermal energy. If the accretor is a black hole, the thermal energy will disappear through the event horizon, and the object will be very dim. If the accretor is a neutron star or any other object with a surface, the energy will be radiated from the surface, and the object will be bright. We discuss alternate interpretations of the data that eliminate the need for advection-dominated accretion. Most of these alternatives still require an event horizon to explain the unusually low X-ray luminosities of the black hole candidates. Some of the alternatives are also inconsistent with observations.
 
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  • #12
pervect said:
There is at least one paper which addresses the experimential issue of whether or not the objects we are calling black holes have event horizons.

Yeah, that certainly qualifies. I must say, though, that astrophysicists have been notoriously bad at modeling accretion systems in the past and advection-dominated accretion flows are a matter of great debate in the community. I'm immediately suspicious of any result that depends on an understanding of accretion physics.

That said, however, I think it probably indicates that these objects, even if not black holes, are quite different from neutron stars. The evidence will become more convincing and straightforward as we delve closer to the event horizons of the supermassive black holes at the centers of the Milky Way and Andromeda.
 
  • #13
SpaceTiger said:
For someone who's not trying to wage a war, I find your statements puzzling.

Yes, the fear of not being able to authenticate the credibilty of my statement with simple words to you has been proven.

We don't even know for sure what these objects are, why should we formulate things for or against it?

It's a perfect question with negative conclusions from your behalf.

...suggesting that until we were 100% sure about a theory, it wasn't worth exploring. That's really reaching, don't you think?

I suggest you re-read my posts again, I stressed the importance of not postulating theories with 100% certainty but to entwine some caution with them.

as you suggested that black holes at the centers of galaxies could cause light from the entire galaxy to redshift. This is absurd and certainly ruled out by observations.

I believe you've misread it, this is what I proposed:

How would we know for instance, that red and blue shifts are not caused by quasars present at the center of galaxies? We don't even know for sure what these objects are, why should we formulate things for or against it?

I am not asserting theories, only asking how an astrophysicist would handle this situation and why should they/you formulate things for or against it. I picked black holes at the center of galaxies because these objects are further away from us; hence much more difficult to make any REAL and FACTUAL inductive conclusions.
 
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  • #14
According to the knowledge of mine and whatever I've read; the universe is expanding ( the galaxies are moving away from each and other & the space is under an enlargement ) Is there any evidence or theory proposing that we are expanding too? I mean that the dark Energy ( or any other force ) causing the quarks to increase in size?
 
  • #15
DM said:
Yes, the fear of not being able to authenticate the credibilty of my statement with simple words to you has been proven. It's a perfect question with negative conclusions from your behalf. I suggest you re-read my posts again, I stressed the importance of not postulating theories with 100% certainty but to entwine some caution with them.
Physics 101.

DM said:
I believe you've misread it, this is what I proposed: How would we know for instance, that red and blue shifts are not caused by quasars present at the center of galaxies? We don't even know for sure what these objects are, why should we formulate things for or against it?
Physics 101.

DM said:
I am not asserting theories, only asking how an astrophysicist would handle this situation and why should they/you formulate things for or against it. I picked black holes at the center of galaxies because these objects are further away from us; hence much more difficult to make any REAL and FACTUAL inductive conclusions.
Yes you are. You are asserting scientists are intellectual drones.
 
  • #16
Chronos said:
Hi shanu! Assumptions will trip you up. There is no center of gravity in this universe. Countless studies have ruled out that possibility.

First of all there are few things in the world which can't be detected directly like predicted strings so how will we get what is happening really in nature. But, there is one more power having by us i.e. mathematics. If from maths' view we get that there is centre of gravity and if countless practicals and studies prove it so nothing can stop us from accepting it.
 
  • #17
A'ight actually I want to say that suppose you're sitting on hour-hand of the clock where 1 second is equal to 1 crore years and it is time 2:25.

If you see the minute-hand you will get that it is going a lot far from us and you can say that clock( as universe ) is expanding but actually everything is revolving around one center. Don't you think it was our misconception that we understood that Universe is really expanding.
 
  • #18
shanu_bhaiya said:
A'ight actually I want to say that suppose you're sitting on hour-hand of the clock where 1 second is equal to 1 crore years and it is time 2:25.

If you see the minute-hand you will get that it is going a lot far from us and you can say that clock( as universe ) is expanding but actually everything is revolving around one center. Don't you think it was our misconception that we understood that Universe is really expanding.

You need to give people in this field of study a LOT more respect than this. Don't you think they would KNOW such a thing? Furthermore, this "expansion" that is being talked about isn't just a simple expansion of an object already in an established space. It is quite more complicated than that!

So maybe it is you who had the misconception of the issues you are trying to discuss here. I will also remind you of the PF Guidelines that you have agreed to regarding speculative posts, especially when your knowledge in this area of study is still in its "learning" stages.

Zz.
 
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  • #19
shanu_bhaiya said:
First of all there are few things in the world which can't be detected directly like predicted strings so how will we get what is happening really in nature. But, there is one more power having by us i.e. mathematics. If from maths' view we get that there is centre of gravity and if countless practicals and studies prove it so nothing can stop us from accepting it.
The math rules it out as well...
 
  • #20
How would we know for instance, that red and blue shifts are not caused by quasars present at the center of galaxies? We don't even know for sure what these objects are, why should we formulate things for or against it?

We don't know what it is, but we do know it posses certain qualities. For example we know how massive a quasar is, and from that we can calculate how much redshift it can produce. I'll admit along time ago I thought that the mass of a galaxy might account for the redshift we observe, but after I made the calculation I realized it didn't even come close.
 
  • #21
Chronos said:
Yes you are. You are asserting scientists are intellectual drones.

Your words vs mine. Let's not start defaming people, Mister.
 
  • #22
ZapperZ said:
You need to give people in this field of study a LOT more respect than this. Don't you think they would KNOW such a thing? Furthermore, this "expansion" that is being talked about isn't just a simple expansion of an object already in an established space. It is quite more complicated than that!

So maybe it is you who had the misconception of the issues you are trying to discuss here. I will also remind you of the PF Guidelines that you have agreed to regarding speculative posts, especially when your knowledge in this area of study is still in its "learning" stages.

Zz.
ok...ok...I absolutely know that UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING but whatever dispute I've given here must be opposed. I know that I misused the words, sorry for that. Will you or anyone else will tell me the actual way of explaining that universe is really expanding.
 
  • #23
Actually there are theories that, depending on the chosen frame, can consistently describe a static space without expansion in which masses evolve (see for example Garth's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_creation_cosmology ). It seams that this can successfully explain the classical cosmological tests of expansion such as the redshift of light, the cosmological time dilation of supernovae 1a, the Tolman surface brightness test of distant galaxies, the variation of the CMB temperature with redshift, the variation of angular size of galaxies with redshift, etc. However, the price for this is a deviation from general relativity that should be noticeable in local or solar system gravitational experiments such as the Gravity Probe B.
 
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  • #24
shanu_bhaiya said:
Will you or anyone else will tell me the actual way of explaining that universe is really expanding.
I'm not sure what you are asking: are you asking what evidence points to expansion or how the expansion started?
 
  • #25
russ_watters said:
I'm not sure what you are asking: are you asking what evidence points to expansion or how the expansion started?

Actually, I want the true practicals which showed that Universe is really expanding or not.
 
  • #26
hellfire said:
Actually there are theories that, depending on the chosen frame, can consistently describe a static space without expansion in which masses evolve (see for example Garth's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_creation_cosmology ). It seams that this can successfully explain the classical cosmological tests of expansion such as the redshift of light, the cosmological time dilation of supernovae 1a, the Tolman surface brightness test of distant galaxies, the variation of the CMB temperature with redshift, the variation of angular size of galaxies with redshift, etc. However, the price for this is a deviation from general relativity that should be noticeable in local or solar system gravitational experiments such as the Gravity Probe B.

Thanks hellfire
 
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  • #27
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/

This website will give you a good basic grounding concerning the Big Bang Model and the expansion of the universe.
 
  • #28
mubashirmansoor said:
According to the knowledge of mine and whatever I've read; the universe is expanding ( the galaxies are moving away from each and other & the space is under an enlargement ) Is there any evidence or theory proposing that we are expanding too? I mean that the dark Energy ( or any other force ) causing the quarks to increase in size?


No we and ordinary matter are not expanding.It is spacetime itself that is expanding. The forces holding atoms together are far stronger than the forces that are causing the spacetime expansion. Besides , if everything was expanding , there would be no way to determine that the universe is expanding at all , since everythnig would be be the same relative to each other.
 
  • #29
On mushashirmansoor's question:
No, your quarks are not expanding on the distance between galaxies are expanding. If we too were expanding then there would be no red shift because other things are expanding too.
 
  • #30
Shanu, that was an interesting question.
did hellfire, or someone else, answer the question for you?

I am curious to know what the CONCLUSION from this thread is?
Can anyone please sum up briefly what was decided?

Is the universe really expanding? Is the expansion real or not?
Maybe now the answer is obvious to everybody, or maybe not.

Will anyone please volunteer to sum up?
 
  • #31
The expanding universe conjecture is observationally based on Hubble's law, and mathematically based on Einstein's field equations: which insist the universe must either be expanding or contracting.
 
  • #32
I may be wrong(if so,tell me why) but I think the time dependence of the scale factor can also be interpreted as cosmological time dilation or contraction.It could also be interpreted as a mixture of two effects i)expansion of space &. ii)accelerating clocks.I don't think there is a unique interpretation to the time dependent scale factor.
 
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  • #33
gptejms said:
(I may be wrong-tell me why) but I think the time dependence of the scale factor can also be interpreted as cosmological time dilation or contraction.It could also be interpreted as a mixture of two effects i)expansion of space &. ii)accelerating clocks.I don't think there is a unique interpretation to the time dependent scale factor.

thanks both Chronos and gptejms, I was just curious to know if the thread had reached a conclusion. If there is a rough consensus then maybe someone can sum up. But if there is still no agreement then nobody can do this.
 
  • #34
OK, so reading all the replies I can conclude that Universe is expanding. But, next question arises that why the speed of the expansion is continuously increaseing. Due to gravitation the speed of expansion must be decreasing. As proposed by:
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/990210c.html
Now, following questions arise:

1. Is there any role of black holes in it?
2. Is General Theory of Relativity incorrect or incomplete?
3. What are the views of Quantum Mechanics on it?
4. Can Superstring theory help us to explain all that?

Please reply 'bout your views, what the reason may be!
 
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  • #35
shanu_bhaiya said:
OK, so reading all the replies I can conclude that Universe is expanding. But, next question arises that why the speed of the expansion is continuously increaseing. Due to gravitation the speed of expansion must be decreasing. As proposed by:
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/990210c.html
Now, following questions arise:

1. Is there any role of black holes in it?
No - BHs are local phenomena not cosmological. However, studies of the singularity at the centre of a BH may lead to a better understanding of gravitation in very strong fields.
2. Is General Theory of Relativity incorrect or incomplete?
No theory can ever be said to be "complete", you never know what might be discovered tomorrow. It is "correct" as far as it has been tested so far in local experiments. The next test Gravity Probe B is being assessed at present and the results are to be published in April 2007.
3. What are the views of Quantum Mechanics on it?
If you add pressure to a Friedmann model the deceleration in expansion counter-intuitively increases, therefore accelerating expansion can be explained by a negative pressure or tension. This is the present explanation for cosmic acceleration and this negative pressure is provided by what is known as Dark Energy. QM can provide such a negative pressure from a false vacuum in which empty space, by the uncertainty principle, is actually full of virtual photons and particles popping in and out of existence. The problem is that when all these virtual particles are taken into account the density obtained is about 10121 greater than that observed in DE!
4. Can Superstring theory help us to explain all that?
Maybe...

Garth
 
  • #36
shanu_bhaiya said:
...anyone else will tell me the actual way of explaining that universe is really expanding.

I don't think anyone can.

For historical reasons it was assumed, shortly after the isotropic red-shift of the Hubble law was discovered, that it is caused by the isotropic recession from us of remote galaxies. It is of course impossible to check whether this is true by direct measurement, say with rulers or radar.

Instead, cosmologists soon developed a model, based on general relativity, of how the universe can be described as "expanding". This model has proved consistent with many observations, especially with the striking discovery of the cosmic microwave background in the 1960's. The assumption of expansion on which the model is based is now accepted as a working hypothesis (or maybe a stronger truth) by nearly all professional cosmologists.

But over the years there have been problems with the model. Some have been resolved by various devices, most notably the inflationary scenario. Presently solutions include the ad-hoc invention of new imaginary substances like dark matter and dark energy. And other problems remain.

When in physics an accepted consensus persists in generating problems, it is in my view a prudent step to re-examine its foundations. In this case they include a prescription used to measure cosmological distances, called the R-W metric. And, it turns out, this prescription is ambiguous, in that the undoubted change that the universe is undergoing can only be properly described as a change in the ratio of the "metric" coefficients of its space and time coordiate differentials. This means that one cannot with certainty say which, if either -- or both--- of these coefficients are changing.

Assigning change to the space coordinates, as is done in the model that cosmologists use, is semantically convenient. It allows one to describe change as "expansion" --- a familiar concept.

But the question you ask, whether the universe "really" expands, is one that, in my opinion, can't "really" be answered. Yet.
 
  • #37
The question is: "What do we mean by "really expanding?"

It depends how you measure expansion.

An alternative 'mass field' explanation of Hubble red shift was used by Hoyle in 1975 in order to provide an alternative origin of the CMB. In this theory red shift was caused by distant and ancient atoms having less mass than nearby and recent ones.

On the origin of the microwave background - F. Hoyle Ap.J. 196 661-670 1975 March 15

The universe was static and space-time was divided into a number of four-dimensional volumes which made plus and minus contributions to the mass field. A plus aggregate was bordered by minus aggregates and vice versa.

The BB singularity was simply our observation of the interface between our '+' and surrounding '-' aggregates at which atomic masses were zero and photons were strongly absorbed and re-emitted and were thus thermalised producing the CMB.

However if atomic masses have increased with time then their size would shrink.

Therefore an expanding universe with fixed rulers was replaced by Hoyle with a static universe with shrinking rulers.

As measurements are always that of a ratio between an object and a standard, Hoyle's scenario and the BB are the same thing!

It depends how you measure it!

Garth
 
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  • #38
The Universe is infinite and unbounded - how could it expand?

Three independent values (coordinates) are all that is necessary to uniquely specify any point of existence within the Universe - hence there are said to be three 'dimensions' (more accurately, three axes). If someone wants me to believe the universe is finite, then all they have to do is simply prove to me that at least one of those independent values has a limit (I'll provide the bus fare :).

Similarly, if anyone wishes me to believe there are more than three dimensions, then prove to me that there are locations in the cosmos which cannot be specified within those three aforementioned coordinates.

Good Luck. I don't envy you your task.
 
  • #39
oldman said:
I don't think anyone can.

For historical reasons it was assumed, shortly after the isotropic red-shift of the Hubble law was discovered, that it is caused by the isotropic recession from us of remote galaxies. It is of course impossible to check whether this is true by direct measurement, say with rulers or radar.

Instead, cosmologists soon developed a model, based on general relativity, of how the universe can be described as "expanding". This model has proved consistent with many observations, especially with the striking discovery of the cosmic microwave background in the 1960's. The assumption of expansion on which the model is based is now accepted as a working hypothesis (or maybe a stronger truth) by nearly all professional cosmologists.
...

I think your picture of history, because of an inverted narrative order, does not do justice to modern cosmology.
It is really important, REALLY IMPORTANT, in Science that a theory makes predictions of a testable effect BEFORE it is observed. That's what the whole current discussion about "falsifiability" is about. Theories have to risk refutation by making predictions BEFORE the experiment or the observation.
Predictions after the fact ("post-dictions") contribute little credibility, by comparison. They could be just fudging around to fit known data.

That is why I am bothered by your account, which seems to INVERT THE HISTORICAL ORDER.

Gen Rel was 1915, at a time when Einstein thought the universe was observed to be static, and it bothered him that his theory seemed to favor dynamic large-scale change. But they went ahead and tested. GR predicted lightbending and in 1919 they checked that.

People like Slipher observed galaxy redshift before Hubble as early as 1917, but they did not formulate a "Hubble Law" distance-redshift relation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hubble

Hubble formulated Hubble Law in 1929. He presented it as an EMPIRICAL LAW that he got by plotting observations---something without theoretical basis. But in fact it was a check of General Relativity. This is something that Gen Rel had, in effect, BEEN PREDICTING ALL ALONG----as one of several possibilities for expanding or contracting dynamic universe---although not everybody realized it.

that is not the whole story----Friedmann and LeMaitre had each worked out the expanding universe consequence of Gen Rel before it was clear from the observations that that was what actually happening.
In rough outline Gen Rel (which says dynamic distances) was 1915 and the empirical Hubble Law was 1929. that is a 14 year lead. One can mention Slipher and Keeler and redshifts observed in 1917, but not many people knew about that or saw a pattern, so basically there's 14 years.
==================

So oldman I would fault your brief historical sketch here because of a certain NUANCE it has by telling the story backwards. It makes it seem as if they FIRST observed Hubble-Law expansion and THEN cooked up a model to fit the observations.

One reason Gen Rel has prestige is that (not only many of its predictions have been exquisitely accurate but also) IT PREDICTED THINGS PEOPLE WEREN'T EVEN THINKING ABOUT OR EXPECTING.

Like the Microwave Background was predicted theoretically actually back in 1948! And not observed until 1965.
As you probably know the 1948 prediction of a CMB around 5 K was published by Gamow, Alpher, Herman. (they came darn close to the right temperature)
=========================

It has been prophetic to an uncanny degree.

And the theory is a coherent organic whole, so it is not so easy to construct an alternative that somehow makes all the OTHER predictions (which involve dynamic geometry) and yet is rigid in largescale distance.

I don't know of anyone doing it. (and it would be after-the-fact POSTdiction, in any case---contriving to fit past data---so less convincing)
==========================

Don't misunderstand me. I feel sure that Gen Rel is WRONG. I expect it to be replaced by a theory that has some quantum corrections. This will, in turn, make some remarkable predictions which people will test and test---until they think they've got the right quantum-corrected version.

but I have no reason to expect that the new improved models will have static distance. Why should they? I see no evidence of static largescale distance in nature, so it is not the sort of feature I would expect a new theory of geometry to have!

I expect OBJECTS, like pieces of metal, to have fairly stable dimensions.
I don't expect largescale DISTANCES in empty space to be stable. I see no convincing evidence of that in nature. My experience does not teach me to expect it. It would surprise me if a theory was concocted that had static geometry and my first reaction would be skeptical. I would anticipate that observational tests (say of light bending) would refute such a theory.
============================
more random thoughts on the subject:
Gen Rel is our prevailing theory of geometry and says, among other things, that distances between stationary objects should normally be constantly changing: Spatial geometry evolves under the influence of matter.

Gen Rel is one coherent theory that makes testable predictions in a lot of different arenas------in solar system (light bending, GPS clock adjustment, Mercury orbit...)-----outside solar system (binary pulsar decay, expansion or contraction of distances). And it is highly successful.

I don't know of a way to buy lightbending (with the observed degree of precision) and all the other precise predictions without buying a geometry with dynamic distances along with the rest. You would have to construct a theory in which spacetime geometry is dynamic is all the ways Gen Rel says EXCEPT the variability of distance. I don't think such a variant of Gen Rel has ever been constructed. Space would have to curve the amount required to match light-bending data, for example, but distances would NOT be able to change with time. It is not obvious to me how one could do that.
 
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  • #40
marcus said:
Gen Rel is our prevailing theory of geometry and says, among other things, that distances between stationary objects should normally be constantly changing: Spatial geometry evolves under the influence of matter.
Define a stationary object.

Space-time, not space, evolves under the influence of matter.

An observer's view of space and time is different than what is happening in space-time.

What is defined as time and space in space-time does not have a one to one relationship with an observer view of time and space. An observer's view on space-time is dependent on it's relative speed and acceleration due to the fact that space or time (but not both) are imaginary in space-time. Furthermore his view is dependent on the amount of warping of his location in space-time.
 
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  • #41
MeJennifer said:
Define a stationary object.
Relativity insists all objects can be considered stationary within their own reference frame.
MeJennifer said:
Space-time, not space, evolves under the influence of matter.
That makes no sense.
MeJennifer said:
An observer's view of space and time is different than what is happening in space-time.
More nonsense..
MeJennifer said:
What is defined as time and space in space-time does not have a one to one relationship with an observer view of time and space. An observer's view on space-time is dependent on it's relative speed and acceleration due to the fact that space or time (but not both) are imaginary in space-time. Furthermore his view is dependent on the amount of warping of his location in space-time
I'm very confused. What are you talking about?
 
  • #42
marcus said:
It is really important, REALLY IMPORTANT, in Science that a theory makes predictions of a testable effect BEFORE it is observed. That's what the whole current discussion about "falsifiability" is about. Theories have to risk refutation by making predictions BEFORE the experiment or the observation.
Predictions after the fact ("post-dictions") contribute little credibility, by comparison. They could be just fudging around to fit known data.

I agree with these criteria, which in an ideal scientific world would always be met. One should deeply distrust theories which don't meet them (for example string theory).

I think your picture of history, because of an inverted narrative order, does not do justice to modern cosmology...That is why I am bothered by your account, which seems to INVERT THE HISTORICAL ORDER.

I'm no historian of science, so I might well have done this. I'll try and explain how I understand the sequence of early events after this:

Gen Rel was 1915, at a time when Einstein thought the universe was observed to be static, and it bothered him that his theory seemed to favor dynamic large-scale change. But they went ahead and tested. GR predicted lightbending and in 1919 they checked that.

People like Slipher observed galaxy redshift before Hubble as early as 1917, but they did not formulate a "Hubble Law" distance-redshift relation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hubble

Hubble formulated Hubble Law in 1929. He presented it as an EMPIRICAL LAW that he got by plotting observations---something without theoretical basis. But in fact it was a check of General Relativity. This is something that Gen Rel had, in effect, BEEN PREDICTING ALL ALONG----as one of several possibilities for expanding or contracting dynamic universe---although not everybody realized it.

As I see it, long before the isotropic cosmological redshift was discovered as you describe, the practice was to measure red/blueshifts to establish stellar radial velocities and to detect spectroscopic binaries. Such red/blueshifts were (correctly) interpreted as a Doppler shifts caused by stellar motion. It was with this astronomically established perspective that Hubble's redshift was approached, leading to the quite natural conclusion that the universe is expanding and, later, to the GR description of expansion in terms of the R-W metric with its time-varying scale factor.

These are the "historical reasons (why I believe) it was assumed, shortly after the isotropic red-shift of the Hubble law was discovered, that it is caused by the isotropic recession from us of remote galaxies". I didn't mean to minimise what must have been the stunning impact made by the confirmation of Friedmann and LeMaitre's prediction, as deduced from Einstein's GR.

About GR itself: I agree that, as you said: "It has been prophetic to an uncanny degree". And I don't doubt that it is a correct description of how gravity behaves and of gravitational phenomena, such as tidal effects and some others you mention "(light bending, GPS clock adjustment, Mercury orbit...)-----outside solar system (binary pulsar decay..." .

Perhaps I didn't make it clear that I'm not proposing any modification to or replacement of GR itself, let alone a new theory of geometry with static distance. I think GR is the best of the best there is in physics.

But I think an opportunity is being missed for some ambitious cosmologist to consider this: is it just possible that a wider interpretation of how GR is applied to cosmology might throw light on some the problems that modern cosmology is plagued with? Specifically, the accepted interpretation of the R-W metric looks ambiguous to me, and I'm expressing the crazy thought that its present interpretation arose as a plausible historical accident without observational foundation.

...It is not obvious to me how one could do that.

Me neither. But I like discussing such matters.
 
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  • #43
oldman said:
But I think an opportunity is being missed for some ambitious cosmologist to consider this: is it just possible that a wider interpretation of how GR is applied to cosmology might throw light on some the problems that modern cosmology is plagued with? Specifically, the accepted interpretation of the R-W metric looks ambiguous to me, and I'm expressing the crazy thought that its present interpretation arose as a plausible historical accident without observational foundation.
One question is: "How is gravitational/cosmological red shift to be interpreted?"

You may be interested in a published alternative explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_creation_cosmology .[/quote]

"some ambitious cosmologist":smile:
 
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  • #44
Our posts crossed, as it were. This in reply to your post #37:

Garth said:
The question is: "What do we mean by "really expanding?"

It depends how you measure expansion... an expanding universe with fixed rulers was replaced by Hoyle with a static universe with shrinking rulers.

As measurements are always that of a ratio between an object and a standard, Hoyle's scenario and the BB are the same thing!

It depends how you measure it!

Garth

I couldn't agree more. In cosmology, as described with general relativity, one measures distance with standards and a metric. By standards I think one means ultimately the laws of physics, provided they are accepted as ubiquitous and eternal, rather than fixed rulers. And in this case the metric is the R-W metric. I also like the idea of ratios being important.

In my previous post in this forum I have repeated to Marcus my misgivings about the accepted interpretation of this metric, which I first expressed in an old thread "How do you interpret the Robertson-Walker metric?" (last posted on: 22 May). Have you any fresh thoughts on this matter?
 
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  • #45
oldman said:
I couldn't agree more. In cosmology, as described with general relativity, one measures distance with standards and a metric. By standards I think one means ultimately the laws of physics, provided they are accepted as ubiquitous and eternal, rather than fixed rulers. And in this case the metric is the R-W metric. I also like the idea of ratios being important.

In my previous post in this forum I have repeated to Marcus my misgivings about the accepted interpretation of this metric, which I first expressed in an old thread "How do you interpret the Robertson-Walker metric?" (last posted on: 22 May). Have you any fresh thoughts on this matter?
As I said "It depends on how you measure it."

In order to make measurements, or any statement at all, of the universe at large we need standard units against which things can be compared. You need something that doesn't change across space and time. That is you need a Conservation Principle.

If that principle is the Conservation of Energy-Momentum, as it is in GR, guaranteed by the Equivalence Principle, then atomic masses are constant and rulers are of fixed length and clocks are 'regular'. They are defined to be so.

In this case, in GR, the the interpretation of the R-W metric is as it is normally understood, the rulers are of fixed length and the universe expands around them from a BB singularity at some fixed point of time in the past.

However if atomic masses are not constant, as in Hoyle's conformal gravity theories, or my SCC then the interpretation of the R-W metric is different.

You have to be consistent with your basic Principles.

Garth
 
  • #46
Garth said:
You may be interested in a published alternative explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_creation_cosmology .

Yes, I am interested, and I downloaded the Wikipedia article some time ago. My trouble is that I am not a cosmologist, although I think I sceptically understand the present consensus and how it came about. My scepticism makes me persist in asking all the awkward questions I can think of.

I am incompetent to judge the merits of Self-creation cosmology. For instance I have not followed the development of the Brans-Dicke theory; I can barely cope with grasping the perspective of GR.

I await the judgement of observation on SCC (the Gravity-B probe experiment?) and the reaction it brings from established cosmologists, although their consensus seems to be almost, but not quite, as entrenched as string-theory dogma, possibly for similar reasons. I suppose one just has to wait and see --- a trying process for an impatient person like myself. In the meantime I am being taught many things by the contributors to this forum.

I can only comment that the Brief Overview section of SCC in the Wikipedia could do with a bit of Brian-Greene-type popularising for folk like myself.
 
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  • #47
oldman said:
I can only comment that the Brief Overview section of SCC in the Wikipedia could do with a bit of Brian-Greene-type popularising for folk like myself.
Have a go!

Garth
 
  • #48
Garth said:
Have a go!

Garth
Thanks, but it need amplification "for folk like myself, not by such ignoramuses!
 
  • #49
The expansion of the universe found to be accelerating may be explained as a continuation of the initial "Big Bang" force, wherein Matter/Energy is being converted into Space. This antigravitational force {force means acceleration} is in a process of converting antigravitational energy into K.E. and continues to accelerate until the counter- gravitational force becomes dominate and reverses the expansion. A matter of converting the potential energy stored from the antigravitational expansion into a reversing force "G".
 
  • #50
Hi J T! Welcome to these Forums.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "initial "Big Bang" force". Forces are internal to the spatially expanding space-time manifold. This manifold is curved by the presence of the matter-energy within it and that curvature results in space-like foliations 'within it' expanding with time, also 'within it'.

However, you might want to relate cosmic acceleration with the postulated inflationary period when such acceleration was much greater. It could be caused by a false vacuum energy left over from that period.

Garth
 

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