Is there a limit to how much energy can be stored in a photon?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of whether there is a limit to the energy that can be stored in a photon, exploring related concepts such as the spectrum of electromagnetic radiation, the highest observed photon energies, and the implications of photon interactions. The scope includes theoretical considerations, speculative ideas, and inquiries about known physical processes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that there is no limit to the energy a photon can have, citing the relationship E=hf, where frequency can be arbitrarily high.
  • Others argue that certain theories, particularly in Quantum Mechanics, suggest there may be limits to the energy absorbed into a photon.
  • Participants inquire about the highest observed photon energies, with mentions of 16 TeV and discussions about potential energies up to 10 EeV.
  • There are questions regarding what could exist above gamma rays and how such high-energy photons could be produced.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of photon collisions, suggesting that high-energy collisions can produce particle-antiparticle pairs.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of photons, with some asserting that photons are not merely energy but possess additional properties.
  • Concerns are raised about the theoretical limits of photon wavelengths and whether photons with extremely short wavelengths could exist.
  • Questions are posed regarding the minimum frequency an electron can emit and the implications of zero-point energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether there is a limit to the energy of a photon, with some asserting there is no limit and others suggesting that certain theories impose restrictions. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing viewpoints present.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on speculative theories or assumptions that are not universally accepted. There are unresolved questions regarding the implications of photon interactions and the nature of energy storage in photons.

Pseudo Epsilon
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hi all, I have a couple of questions.

is there a limit to how much energy can be stored in a photon?

And why does the spectrum only go to gamma rays?

And what is the higest observed energy and what made it ?

Thanx in advance
 
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There is no limit to how much energy there can be in a photon, unless you start getting into some speculative theories.
 
There is no upper limit. The energy E is simply E=hf, and the frequency f can be arbitrary high. The only question is whether the are processes via which high-energy photons a produced.
 
what would be above gamma rays? And how could these be produced.
 
and what is the higest frequency photon observed?
 
and what is the higest frequency photon observed?
The highest measured energy is 16 TeV. At least, that's what it says here.
 
Bill_K said:
The highest measured energy is 16 TeV. At least, that's what it says here.

That's 16 Joules as I read the wiki... an almost mind-boggling number, enough energy to be macroscopically observable.
 
the wiki article implies the existence of up to 10Eev
 
There is a limit to absorbed an energy into a photon. Some theories don't let us think that... eg., Quantum Theory and basic principle laws of Quantum Mechanics, for that we have to do research on it.
 
  • #10
can any known proces produce 100 Eev photons?
 
  • #11
Amol Pakhare said:
There is a limit to absorbed an energy into a photon. Some theories don't let us think that... eg., Quantum Theory and basic principle laws of Quantum Mechanics, for that we have to do research on it.
If you don't know any such theory, what makes you believe that there is one?
 
  • #12
I'm not sure that you can say a photon is anything besides energy. Is there a limit to the amount of energy stored in energy o_0 ?
 
  • #13
I'm not sure that you can say a photon is anything besides energy. Is there a limit to the amount of energy stored in energy o_0 ?
A photon is not just disembodied energy! It exists, with a full set of properties, on the same basis as all the other elementary particles. In addition to energy and momentum it carries one unit ħ of spin, has space parity -1, charge parity -1, and couples to a conserved quantity, namely the charge-current 4-vector.
 
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  • #14
once again, can any KNOWN process generate hypotheticly, 100 Eev photons? If so please give me the name.
 
  • #15
There is not a limit.

Proof: Consider the following: suppose there were a maximum energy, E_max. You create a source of photons of energy E_max. Now you start walking towards it, blueshifting them. Now their energy is greater than E_max.
 
  • #16
Bill_K said:
A photon is not just disembodied energy!

Hehe, I'm saying that it is disembodied because it has no dimensions in classical space. All of those quantum numbers are not what I would normally think of as a "body"... Perhaps you could think of all of those numbers as being vectors in Hilbert space. Then I guess you could say it's "embodied"!
 
  • #17
Pseudo Epsilon said:
once again, can any KNOWN process generate hypotheticly, 100 Eev photons? If so please give me the name.

You can annihilate an electron-positron pair with sufficiently high energy.
You can blue shift a photon (e.g. the cosmic background radiation) to arbitrary high energy by accelerating yourself.
 
  • #18
Pseudo Epsilon said:
is there a limit to how much energy can be stored in a photon?
As mentioned above the answer is no. Although saying that a photon stores energy seems like a quirky way to put it.

Pseudo Epsilon said:
And why does the spectrum only go to gamma rays?
I would hazard go guess that the term gamma ray refers to any photon above a certain energy so that the photon energy levels to the right of all observed gamma rays corresponds also to gamma rays.

It's theoretically possible to move at any speed relative to a source of photons. As such you can move as close to the speed of light as you wish. The faster you go relative to the source of photons the higher the photons energy will be and as such there is no theoretical upper bound to the energy of gamma rays.
 
  • #19
Note that while there is no limit on the energy of a single photon, there is a limit on the energy of the photons coming to us from distant sources. If they have energy high enough they will interact with the background radiation, so they will be filtered out. Google for Greisen–Zatsepin–Kuzmin limit.
 
  • #20
what hapens if photon a with 10Eev energy and photon b with same energy collide head on? And what if three with the same energy collide with equal angles away from each other?
 
  • #21
Pseudo Epsilon said:
what hapens if photon a with 10Eev energy and photon b with same energy collide head on?
In each collision a pair of charged particle/antiparticle is produced. Depending on the particle species further particle production will occure. If e.g. an electron-positron pair is created, nothing else happens. If a quark-antiquark pair is produced the will hadronize in two jets.
 
  • #22
Pseudo Epsilon said:
what hapens if photon a with 10Eev energy and photon b with same energy collide head on? And what if three with the same energy collide with equal angles away from each other?
There is something called photon-photon scattering. I believe that the scattering cross section is quite small though. So for the most part they don't interact. I don't know much about this process but you can learn more about it at http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/p11-144
 
  • #23
why does that happen if i may ask. Why for example don't they superpose like a clasical transverse wave?
 
  • #24
Pseudo Epsilon said:
Why ... don't they superpose like a clasical transverse wave?
They do.

The two-photon state is (in the QFT-sense) the linear superposition of two one-photon states.

But due to the non-linearity encoded in the photon-fermion interaction term of the Hamiltonian (in Feynman diagram language the photon-fermion vertex), the S-matrix contains diffent channels

Besides the trivial (classical) non-interacting channel

[tex]|2\gamma\rangle \to |2\gamma\rangle[/tex]

there are (infinitly many) interacting channels, e.g.

[tex]|2\gamma\rangle \to |e^+\,e^-\rangle[/tex]
 
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  • #25
the wiki article on two-photon physics doesn't contain much info, any good links?
 
  • #26
and is there a lower limit? Theoreticly there is none but is there a point where the frequency of a radio wave is too low for an electron to emit?
 
  • #27
Nugatory said:
That's 16 Joules as I read the wiki... an almost mind-boggling number, enough energy to be macroscopically observable.

According to the wiki article:

10 TeV = 16 Micro Joules, so 16 TeV = 25.6 Micro Joules.

10Eev = 16 Joules
 
  • #28
tom.stoer said:
There is no upper limit. The energy E is simply E=hf, and the frequency f can be arbitrary high. The only question is whether the are processes via which high-energy photons a produced.

But frequency is inversely related to wavelength, right? Can wavelength be arbitrarily short? What if a photon contains so much energy that the wavelength is shorter than Planck length; can that photon exist? I have also heard the statement (here in the Forums, actually) that there is a lower limit, if you envision a wavelength too long to fit within the universe. Those are some pretty exterme scenarios, but do they make sense on theoretically?
 
  • #29
  • #30
if a photon with wavelenth big as universe were to be produced couldn't it affect an object at the end of the universe?
 

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