Is There a Link Between Genius Mathematicians and Mental Illness?

[Borogoves]

Why is it that many mathematicians in the past who have made significantly profound contributions to the world of math, actually suffered from quite severe mental health problems which we nowadays recognise as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or schizophrenia etc. ?
examples would be John Nash, Paul Erdos, or Kurt Godel(who died due to his anxieties)

Do any of you postdoctorate math students either suffer from a form of mental illness or exhibit any eccentricities ?

 

[honestrosewater]

Why is it that many mathematicians in the past who have made significantly profound contributions to the world of math, actually suffered from quite severe mental health problems which we nowadays recognise as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or schizophrenia etc. ?
examples would be John Nash, Paul Erdos, or Kurt Godel(who died due to his anxieties)

Why? I would guess bad luck, but who knows. How many is many? More than is found in the general population? Anxiety disorders affect something like 15% of the adult population in the US.
I happen to have been suffering from OCD since I was 17, and I plan on doing great work. If I manage to treat my OCD and do great work, would you still think there was a link between the two? Just curious.

 

[whozum]

I would think their excessive obsession with logic and patterns would drive them to become upset when they couldn't describe their environment with that knowldge.

I believe an obsession with perfection would only lead someone to disappointment.

 

[The Bob]

I believe an obsession with perfection would only lead someone to disappointment.

Or to find out why.

The Bob (2004 ©)

 

[neurocomp2003]

work environment vs social environment?

 

[mathwonk]

forget it. we can't help having aspergers syndrome. just get back to,work and try to enjoy it!

 

[robert Ihnot]

What makes "these days" so much better in recognizing mental illness? Nash had clear signs of schizophrenia. As for Godel, he was old and "functional" and so nothing would be done about it, even now. Erdos was eccentric, and, most likely, nothing could be done about that now either.

 

[HallsofIvy]

I would think their excessive obsession with logic and patterns would drive them to become upset when they couldn't describe their environment with that knowldge.

I believe an obsession with perfection would only lead someone to disappointment.

What evidence do you have that any of these people had such an obsession?

 

[Icebreaker]

Do any of you postdoctorate math students either suffer from a form of mental illness or exhibit any eccentricities ?

Q: Why does every university keep a math department?
A: Because it's cheaper than to insitutionalize all those people.

 

[honestrosewater]

Just to clarify: OCD is not being "obsessive" about things, even excessively obsessive. The obsessions of OCD are not obsessions in the usual sense. Obsessions are intrusive, unwanted, and uncontrollable thoughts that cause great anxiety and impair a person's ability to function. A person doesn't consciously choose to have obsessions, and they cannot be controlled- you cannot just make the thoughts stop. They are very much not "your own thoughts". They persist and usually get worse without treatment. For instance, one of my obsessions is the thought that I'm going to rip my eyes out of my skull with my bare hands. This is often accompanied by images. Or the image of stabbing or maiming myself upon seeing a knife. Or that there's a rattlesnake or mamba at my feet about to bite me everytime I try to fall sleep. Or a lion behind every bush I pass along the street. Or a person outside the window with a gun pointed at my head. And so on. And they aren't just thoughts; As absurd and irrational as I know they are- they are accompanied by the feeling that they're actually true. And you cannot reason your way out of them. It's difficult to explain. Let it suffice to say I haven't been able to use a sharp knife in years. So pardon the little rant, but suffering from OCD is nothing like being obsessed with some math problem, and it doesn't make anything you do easier; It makes everything harder and really is suffering.

So anyway, you aren't talking about personality traits. I would expect people in the same profession to share certain personality traits. You're talking about mental disorders and specifically about disorders that are thought to have a neurobiological basis. If being a mathematician- or being a capable mathematician- and having OCD (or another anxiety disorder) were connected in the way that I think is being suggested, wouldn't you expect a mathematician to lose their abilities upon successful treatment- medication and/or behavior therapy- of their disorder?

 

[whozum]

What evidence do you have that any of these people had such an obsession?

I don't have any, its just a proposition to be looked into. I would imagine someone into mathematics (like myself) would try to discover things similar to their works in every day things.

 

[Borogoves]

What evidence do you have that any of these people had such an obsession?

Well we do have strong evidence to suggest that the mathematicians mentioned did suffer from various illnesses, ranging from ocd to schizophrenia.

and it wasn't just a coincidence that they were ill as well as having exceptionally creative power over mathematics.

and to honestrosewater, yes I would say that ocd involves repetitively or obsessively performing tasks which may or may not be logical. There is also a tendency to focus upon one subject such as math or music.
But as for your last comment, 100 yrs ago or so, little was known about these conditions and therefore there simply was no treatment available except to lock them away in an institute.
Besides, I do not believe that they would have lost their abilities upon treatment !

 

[arildno]

It's a matter of "fact" that all logicians kill themselves (Frege, for example).

The pernicious field of mathematical logic excepted, doing maths is, in general, not hazardous for your mental health.

 

[honestrosewater]

and it wasn't just a coincidence that they were ill as well as having exceptionally creative power over mathematics.

And this assertion is based on what?

and to honestrosewater, yes I would say that ocd involves repetitively or obsessively performing tasks which may or may not be logical. There is also a tendency to focus upon one subject such as math or music.

Where did you get this information from? If you don't believe what I've said, try these:
http://www.psych.org/public_info/ocd.cfm
http://www.ocfoundation.org/ocf1010a.htm
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/HealthInformation/ocdmenu.cfm

Besides, I do not believe that they would have lost their abilities upon treatment !

Okay, then how do you think they are connected? Or better yet, why do you think they are connected? And why pick anxiety disorders and not, say, diabetes?

 

[NewScientist]

Newton was also not 'stable' due to many accounts. to be a bit poetic 'There is a fine line between genius and insanity'. I think that a true mathematician has an extremely focused and logical mind and once outside such an ordered life they cannot cope (in some cases).

Thinking about this, my mind cannot help but wander to the behaviour of people who leave the army. Some cannot return to civvie life due to the order that has been created - this is of course different but there are lines of connection.

ALSO on't label people with neurological disorders as 'ill' it makes them sound like they need to be got rid of - like they are a burden. I know of many people who work with Autistic people to break down barriers of prejudice and make Autism and other diseases on that spectrum more culuturally 'acceptable'. I even hear of a proposed Autism pride day - echoing tht of the Gay Pride movement some years ago. So - just watch your language

-NewScientist

 

[honestrosewater]

Okay, so no one has presented any statistical data that suggests a connection between mental disorders and mathematical ability. No one has suggested a possible mechanism for any connection, except my shallow suggestion. And does anyone else even realize that different disorders have different symptoms, physical signs, treatments, inheritability, known causes, suspected causes, etc., making it even less likely that they all share something in common with whatever causes a person to have exceptional mathematical ability? And does anyone even know enough about the nature of mathematical ability to have a serious discussion about its causes? You may as well suggest that there's a connection between cancer and being a bad speller.

And in case anyone doesn't know, correlation does not imply causation. Not that anyone has even found a correlation yet...
I mean, great, you've noticed that some great mathematicians may have had mental disorders. And where does that lead you? To find out how many great mathematicians have or may have had mental disorders? To find out if this percentage is unusual? To look for a possible cause? Or to jump straight to the conclusion that what you've noticed isn't a coincidence?

 

[mathwonk]

just in case anyone is feeling depressed or stressed out, remember that if you eat a good meal and get a good nights sleep, you will usually feel better in the morning. and it helps to watch a funny movie, like maybe "the imposters" by stanley tucci.

 

[wisredz]

Haha good advice, but I definitely hate sleeping. And "Bruce Almighty" is a good movie to watch while feeling bad...

 

[NewScientist]

So not a beautiful mind then?

 

[whozum]

Okay, so no one has presented any statistical data that suggests a connection between mental disorders and mathematical ability. No one has suggested a possible mechanism for any connection, except my shallow suggestion. And does anyone else even realize that different disorders have different symptoms, physical signs, treatments, inheritability, known causes, suspected causes, etc., making it even less likely that they all share something in common with whatever causes a person to have exceptional mathematical ability? And does anyone even know enough about the nature of mathematical ability to have a serious discussion about its causes? You may as well suggest that there's a connection between cancer and being a bad speller.

And in case anyone doesn't know, correlation does not imply causation. Not that anyone has even found a correlation yet...
I mean, great, you've noticed that some great mathematicians may have had mental disorders. And where does that lead you? To find out how many great mathematicians have or may have had mental disorders? To find out if this percentage is unusual? To look for a possible cause? Or to jump straight to the conclusion that what you've noticed isn't a coincidence?

Actually not very long ago I read that there is an increased rate of occurence of a certain mental disorder among people who study mathematics/philosophy/arts , I just can't remember for the life of me where.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Actually not very long ago I read that there is an increased rate of occurent of a certain mental disorder among people who study mathematics/philosophy/arts , I just can't remember for the life of me where.

Obviously evidence for systematic memory loss in people who worry about mathematicians' mental health. Call the media!

 

[Icebreaker]

What you call ''mental disorder'' I call ''higher state of being'', thank you.

 

[honestrosewater]

Obviously evidence for systematic memory loss in people who worry about mathematicians' mental health. Call the media!

whozum,
It was probably Manic Depression (Bipolar Disorder). And it was among "creative" people, whatever that might mean.

Edit: Yeah, see http://www.molbio.princeton.edu/courses/mb427/2000/projects/0002/index3.html
"Welcome to the Princeton University student web project on the relationship between manic depression (also known as bipolar disorder) and creativity."

 

[whozum]

whozum,
It was probably Manic Depression (Bipolar Disorder). And it was among "creative" people, whatever that might mean.

Edit: Yeah, see http://www.molbio.princeton.edu/courses/mb427/2000/projects/0002/index3.html
"Welcome to the Princeton University student web project on the relationship between manic depression (also known as bipolar disorder) and creativity."

Yeah, that's the one. So there is a link.

Obviously evidence for systematic memory loss in people who worry about mathematicians' mental health. Call the media!

 

[honestrosewater]

Yeah, that's the one. So there is a link.

There are books too. "Touched by Fire" or something similar I think is one. There are other sites and studies too.

 

[ohwilleke]

Why is it that many mathematicians in the past who have made significantly profound contributions to the world of math, actually suffered from quite severe mental health problems which we nowadays recognise as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder or schizophrenia etc. ?
examples would be John Nash, Paul Erdos, or Kurt Godel(who died due to his anxieties)

Do any of you postdoctorate math students either suffer from a form of mental illness or exhibit any eccentricities ?

Mathematicians aren't the only ones where this pattern is observed (oh, and you forgot to mention borderline autistic). Poets and painters both do worse.

I think that there likely is a connection. The line between beneficially different and mentally ill is fuzzy and sometimes overlaps.

 

[honestrosewater]

Mathematicians aren't the only ones where this pattern is observed (oh, and you forgot to mention borderline autistic). Poets and painters both do worse.

What pattern? Three people with different disorders does not make a pattern. How many people are in this group of mathematicians? Do they all have mental disorders? And correlation doesn't imply causation. John Nash, Paul Erdos, and Kurt Godel all have four letters in their first name. Is there a connection between having four letters in your first name and being a great mathematician? Is there a connection between having four letters in your first name and having a mental disorder?

 

[honestrosewater]

Yeah, that's the one. So there is a link.

Oh, I thought you meant website link. If you meant a link between MD and creativity, you should read the article.
http://www.molbio.princeton.edu/courses/mb427/2000/projects/0002/relation.html
Here are the criticisms, since there isn't much to say about the statistics. (my bolding)

Critics of the notion that manic depression may enhance creative ability emphasize that this relationship, though it has received much attention, is only hypothetical. The most obvious objection to the existence of such a link is that most people with manic depression are not creative or artistic and most individuals classified as artists or creative individuals are not affected by manic depression.

Skeptics also criticize studies suggesting the prevalence of bipolar disorders among creative individuals. Some argue that using biographical descriptions to diagnose deceased artists and writers with manic depression, and then citing these diagnoses as evidence of the prevalence of bipolar disorders among creative individuals, is “a parlor game, not science.”(3) Furthermore, studies using biographical evidence to suggest that afflictions are more prominent among creative people could be biased by overexposure. More information is known about the private lives of these individuals, whereas members of the general public might choose to hide these disorders to avoid social stigma.(4) Of course, later studies, such as those described above and in particular those performed by Jamison, relied on more systematic approaches that avoid the bias resulting from the use of biographies. However, this work too has been criticized for using people who have been “socially defined” as creative (for example, by having received prizes) in assessing the prevalence of manic depression among artists. Artists and writers outside of the mainstream may not be included in this research, and therefore the samples of artists used would not be representative. Furthermore, eminent artists may refuse to participate in such a study out of fear of stigmatization, therefore biasing even the analysis of artists who are “socially defined” as creative.(Gutin)

While researchers claim that the results of recent studies suggest an overriding trend that creativity and manic depression are linked, they are far from unified in suggesting a mechanism for this link.

Critics have questioned the proposed means by which manic depression might influence creativity. Preti suggests that some temperamental traits widespread among creative people, like eccentricity, uneasiness, propensity to excess and experimentation, could be a reflection not only of an underlying mood disorder, but also, and above all, of the tolerance by society of the behavior of high-achieving individuals. The expression of these traits among artists is therefore a byproduct of their creative achievement whose success affords them permission to behave in such a way; such behavior by individuals of the general public would not be tolerated by society.(Preti)

Along different lines, Arnold Ludwig has suggested that the prevalence of manic depression among artists does not necessarily mean that this disorder must be linked to enhanced artistic ability. He found much higher levels of mental illness among creative artists than among creative individuals in other professions. While these findings offer evidence that confirms the prevalence of bipolar disorders among artists, Ludwig does not interpret these findings as consistent with Jamison’s conclusion that manic depression enhances creativity. Rather, he suggests that creative individuals who are afflicted with a mental illness find themselves in artistic professions because alternating episodes of mania and depression and their associated changes in mood, focus,etc., are not conducive to the structured nature of business or science. He ultimately concludes that mental illness is, "not a necessary component of “creative eminence.”(Gutin)

Critics such as psychiatrist Frank Johnson of the University of California at San Francisco point out that manic depression is just another in a long list of illnesses that have previously been thought to be related to creativity. In the 1960’s alcoholism was believed to be the source of artistic creativity in writers, while earlier this influence was attributed to epilepsy and syphilitis paresis. The works of Keats, Shelley, Poe and others were once believed to be a result of tuberculosis. (Like manic depression, TB involves periods of hyperactivity and then periods of lethargy whose alternation was thought to produce great insight in patients.)(Gutin)

In fact, a study reported by the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill refutes the notion that manic or depressive episodes are what promote creativity for an affected artist. A group of 24 artists were asked “What happened to your creative ability” when their manic depression had been brought under control with lithium. 6 artists reported that their work levels had remained the same, and 12 reported that “they created more, and in some cases better” during treatment. “Their depressions had been painful and artistically barren; their manias dominated by valueless overactivity.” The ability to function consistently and to regulate their artistic abilities contributed positively to their work levels and creativity.(5) No one is creative or productive when severely depressed or psychotic. Furthermore, the high rate of suicide in untreated manic depressives means that potential for artistic productivity is cut short. Observations of other researchers seem to corroborate this idea.

Most of the artists sampled in Andreasen’s study stated that they tended to write during the normal periods between episodes rather than during a manic state.Ruth Richards found that these creative abilities were mostly concentrated among individuals with “slight or sub-clinical forms” of manic depression, since, as suggested, severe forms of the disease are not conducive to productivity.(6)

If there is a link between mental illness and creativity, it could also be more general than specifically manic depression. Ludwig’s study suggests that a state of general “unease” or “tension” is conducive to artistic achievement, and only one component that influences individuals who are otherwise disposed to creativity.

Many alternatives to the theory of a link between creativity and mental illness have been suggested. Some researchers, most notably Harvard psychiatrist Albert Rothenberg, argue that it is actually mental health that facilitates creativity. Ludwig’s studies confirm the notion that creative individuals in a variety of professions are characterized by emotional stability.(7)

The push to show a link between manic depression and creativity, some argue, is actually a result of the fact that extraordinary accomplishments “make us nervous.” This is simply an extension of the “mad genius” myth. Attributing creative achievement with mental illness is comforting- it “allows us to settle back and fish between the sofa cushions for the remote. No need to make the effort to create a poem or anything else; art is the province of the mad.”(Gutin)

Even if there may be a link between bipolar disorder and creativity, this link would only be relevant for a few individuals within the population. Prominent critics of this relationship as well as individuals who are themselves afflicted with manic depression fear that the push to establish such a link tends to romanticize a condition associated with tremendous suffering that has ruined the lives of many individuals. An estimated 2 million Americans suffer from bipolar disorders, with roughly 1/3 of those individuals going untreated. This is a particularly grave statistic, considering that the suicide rate among untreated individuals is up to 20%.(8) One painter who suffers from manic-depression echoes this concern. “I hate for people to admire the creativity and support an illness that ends in something so criminal to self as suicide.”(Gutin) In addition, emphasizing such a link may even put an extra burden on individuals already afflicted with this condition by expecting people to be creative, or encourage individuals not to seek treatment.

Even for the sub-group of individuals for whom may be associated with creativity, the illness is both a blessing and a cure [prob. meant 'curse'], and we must seek ways to reduce its pain.

“Sometimes I think God gave me the gift of creativity as a consolation prize, but I’m still suffering. I don’t know where this disease came from, but I sure wish it would go away.”(9)

 

[Borogoves]

Okay, so no one has presented any statistical data that suggests a connection between mental disorders and mathematical ability. No one has suggested a possible mechanism for any connection, except my shallow suggestion. And does anyone else even realize that different disorders have different symptoms, physical signs, treatments, inheritability, known causes, suspected causes, etc., making it even less likely that they all share something in common with whatever causes a person to have exceptional mathematical ability? And does anyone even know enough about the nature of mathematical ability to have a serious discussion about its causes? You may as well suggest that there's a connection between cancer and being a bad speller.

And in case anyone doesn't know, correlation does not imply causation. Not that anyone has even found a correlation yet...
I mean, great, you've noticed that some great mathematicians may have had mental disorders. And where does that lead you? To find out how many great mathematicians have or may have had mental disorders? To find out if this percentage is unusual? To look for a possible cause? Or to jump straight to the conclusion that what you've noticed isn't a coincidence?

As for your comment regarding the causes of mathematical ability, it would be an inherent trait of the individual surely.

Cancer is a physical illness whereas being a bad speller could be due to dyslexia, but in any case it would be a condition of the mind.
Likewise, illnesses such as ocd or schizophrenia affect the mind. Irrespective of whether one is a platonist, mathematics is essentially 'all in the mind'.
Therefore the link between mental illness and mathematical ability would be far more plausible.

One cannot prove that there is a definite link, in the same way that one cannot disprove the notion.

All we can do is speculate that there may be a link. As for how and why there could be a link, that is the mystery.

If one was obsessed with mathematics in particular, then it would be reasonable, would it not, to suggest that he or she would be good at it ?

Also there is a paradox here in that a person suffering from ocd, may repetitively perform rituals which are not logical and yet excel in math which is a highly logical structure of axioms !

 

[honestrosewater]

As for your comment regarding the causes of mathematical ability, it would be an inherent trait of the individual surely.

Inherent how? What specifically are the causes?

Cancer is a physical illness whereas being a bad speller could be due to dyslexia, but in any case it would be a condition of the mind.
Likewise, illnesses such as ocd or schizophrenia affect the mind. Irrespective of whether one is a platonist, mathematics is essentially 'all in the mind'.
Therefore the link between mental illness and mathematical ability would be far more plausible.

Cancers of the brain directly affect the brain. Other cancers can and do spread to the brain. So is affecting the brain enough to establish a link?

One cannot prove that there is a definite link, in the same way that one cannot disprove the notion.

One can search for evidence that supports or refutes it. One can also come up with a theory. Do you have a theory? A mechanism? Any supporting evidence?

All we can do is speculate that there may be a link. As for how and why there could be a link, that is the mystery.

Maybe all you're willing to is speculate. Other people try to do more. They are generally called scientists.

If one was obsessed with mathematics in particular, then it would be reasonable, would it not, to suggest that he or she would be good at it ?

Sure, people may work to become good at something they're obsessed with or become obsessed with something they're good at. But obsession alone is just obsession. And you do understand that the obsessions of OCD are not normal obsessions, right? Same word, different meaning.

Also there is a paradox here in that a person suffering from ocd, may repetitively perform rituals which are not logical and yet excel in math which is a highly logical structure of axioms !

Again, why do you think that's a paradox?
You seem to just want to make bare assertions and ignore the information and criticism that I've provided. If that's the case, kindly say so, and I'll gladly leave the discussion.

 

[Borogoves]

Inherent how? What specifically are the causes?

It is a talent that the person is born with, and through nurturing, the full potential of the person can be realized. It is also a simple case of whether the person has a deep interest in a subject, be it math or science.


Cancers of the brain directly affect the brain. Other cancers can and do spread to the brain. So is affecting the brain enough to establish a link?
One can search for evidence that supports or refutes it. One can also come up with a theory. Do you have a theory? A mechanism? Any supporting evidence?

I don't profess to have a theory which explains the mechanism for the supposed link.
I merely wanted to find out what the possible causes could be and as you say the mechanisms involved.

What would you say is enough to establish a link ?
It's not an easy question to answer, since, many mistakes are made in diagnosing a mental illness, and we still do not know how the brain functions in its entirety.


Maybe all you're willing to is speculate. Other people try to do more. They are generally called scientists.

Science is full of nothing but theories. It's all rather speculative at the end of the day.

Sure, people may work to become good at something they're obsessed with or become obsessed with something they're good at. But obsession alone is just obsession. And you do understand that the obsessions of OCD are not normal obsessions, right? Same word, different meaning.

Again, why do you think that's a paradox?

The typical person suffering from ocd is believed to perform all manner of rituals, which are illogical, and yet if he or she has an exceptional aptitude for math, which is a highly logical subject, then the situation represents a paradox.

 

[honestrosewater]

What would you say is enough to establish a link ?
It's not an easy question to answer, since, many mistakes are made in diagnosing a mental illness, and we still do not know how the brain functions in its entirety.

I'll get to the rest of this in a minute, but to see what's wrong with this argument consider a similar one:

What would you say is enough to prove a theorem?
It's not an easy question to answer, since, many mistakes are made in proving theorems, and we still do not know every theorem of any given theory.

We say up front what constitutes a proof (or establishes a link).

Science is full of nothing but theories. It's all rather speculative at the end of the day.

Nothing but theories? Performing experiments has been a crucial part of science for centuries.

The typical person suffering from ocd is believed to perform all manner of rituals, which are illogical, and yet if he or she has an exceptional aptitude for math, which is a highly logical subject, then the situation represents a paradox.

First, a paradox should prompt you to take another look at your assumptions.
Second, it still isn't clear how this is paradoxical. Look at the definition of compulsions:

Compulsions are defined by the following 2 criteria:

* The person feels driven to perform repetitive behaviors (eg, hand washing, ordering, checking) or mental acts (eg, praying, counting, repeating words silently) in response to an obsession or according to rules that must be applied rigidly.

* The behaviors or mental acts are aimed at preventing or reducing distress or preventing some dreaded event or situation; however, these behaviors or mental acts either are not connected in a realistic way with what they are meant to neutralize or prevent or they are clearly excessive.
- http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1654.htm

IOW, if you don't perform the compulsion, you will be in pain!
If you have a headache, want to relieve it, and know that taking some Tylenol will relieve it, the logical solution is to take some Tylenol- unless its side effects are worse than the headache. But there is nothing strictly logical about taking Tylenol to relieve a headache. You have learned through experience that taking Tylenol relieves headaches, and perhaps you have even discovered through experience how taking Tylenol relieves headaches. In the same way, there is nothing strictly logical about washing your hands for 2 hours to relieve anxiety. But if you have anxiety, want to relieve it, and know that washing your hands for 2 hours will relieve it, the logical solution is to wash your hands for 2 hours- unless the side effects are worse than the anxiety. People with compulsions have learned through experience that performing their compulsions (at least temporarily) relieves their anxiety. But AFAIK, no one has discovered how performing compulsions relieves anxiety.
So in this context, how are compulsions illogical? Do you think taking Tylenol to relieve a headache is illogical? Do you know how Tylenol works?

I don't profess to have a theory which explains the mechanism for the supposed link.
I merely wanted to find out what the possible causes could be and as you say the mechanisms involved.

Okay, are you looking for a behavioral mechanism, i.e., people with mental disorders tend to behave in a certain way, and this behavior leads them to excel in math? Or are you looking for a physiological mechanism, say:

Pathophysiology: The exact pathophysiologic process that underlies OCD has not been established. Research and treatment trials suggest that abnormalities in serotonin (5-HT) transmission in the central nervous system are central to this disorder. This is strongly supported by the efficacy of specific serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) in the treatment of OCD.

Evidence also suggests a role for abnormalities in dopaminergic transmission in cases of OCD. In some cohorts, Tourette syndrome and multiple chronic tics genetically co-vary with OCD in an autosomal dominant pattern. OCD symptoms in this group of patients show a preferential response to a combination of SSRIs and neuroleptics.

Functional and anatomic studies in OCD have demonstrated some reproducible patterns of abnormality. Specifically, MRI and positron emission tomography (PET) scanning have shown increases in blood flow and metabolic activity in the orbitofrontal cortex, limbic structures, caudate, and thalamus, with a trend toward right-sided predominance. In some studies, these areas of overactivity have been shown to normalize following successful treatment with either SSRIs or cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT). These findings suggest the hypothesis that the symptoms of OCD are driven by impaired intracortical inhibition of a para-limbic circuit that mediates strong emotions and the autonomic responses to those emotions. Cingulotomy, a neurosurgical intervention in OCD, interrupts this circuit (see Treatment).

Similar abnormalities of inhibition are observed in Tourette syndrome, with a postulated abnormal modulation of basal ganglia activation.
- http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1654.htm

and this causes them to excel in math?
I think you'd have a hell of a time finding any evidence to support your proposed "innate talent for math". And I still haven't heard any reason for suspecting that there is any link between mental disorders and mathematical ability. Do you just want to look for a link for no particular reason?

 

[Borogoves]

I'll get to the rest of this in a minute, but to see what's wrong with this argument consider a similar one:

What would you say is enough to prove a theorem?
It's not an easy question to answer, since, many mistakes are made in proving theorems, and we still do not know every theorem of any given theory.

We say up front what constitutes a proof (or establishes a link).
Nothing but theories? Performing experiments has been a crucial part of science for centuries.

Incorrect. Do you know what constitutes a rigorous mathematical proof ?
It's not even an argument. It was, and still is a question which I posed/am posing.
The intricacies involved in what constitutes a mathematical proof is quite different to that of diagnosing a mental illness. So it's not reasonable to compare the two.
Science is full of theories such as Relativity, QFT, String Theory et cetera.
So physicists are no different in that they are proposing an idea which may not have any factual basis.

First, a paradox should prompt you to take another look at your assumptions.
Second, it still isn't clear how this is paradoxical. Look at the definition of compulsions: IOW, if you don't perform the compulsion, you will be in pain!
If you have a headache, want to relieve it, and know that taking some Tylenol will relieve it, the logical solution is to take some Tylenol- unless its side effects are worse than the headache. But there is nothing strictly logical about taking Tylenol to relieve a headache. You have learned through experience that taking Tylenol relieves headaches, and perhaps you have even discovered through experience how taking Tylenol relieves headaches. In the same way, there is nothing strictly logical about washing your hands for 2 hours to relieve anxiety. But if you have anxiety, want to relieve it, and know that washing your hands for 2 hours will relieve it, the logical solution is to wash your hands for 2 hours- unless the side effects are worse than the anxiety. People with compulsions have learned through experience that performing their compulsions (at least temporarily) relieves their anxiety. But AFAIK, no one has discovered how performing compulsions relieves anxiety.
So in this context, how are compulsions illogical? Do you think taking Tylenol to relieve a headache is illogical? Do you know how Tylenol works?

This is not a debate about logic so I will not comment any further on this particular topic, except to say that it is unreasonable to engage in excessive handwashing for example, since their belief that there may be a risk of contamination or that they may die, is completely unfounded and false. The patients themselves know that their acts of handwashing are in fact not logical but they can't stop themselves, that is to say, it is a compulsion.


Okay, are you looking for a behavioral mechanism, i.e., people with mental disorders tend to behave in a certain way, and this behavior leads them to excel in math? Or are you looking for a physiological mechanism, say:
and this causes them to excel in math?
I think you'd have a hell of a time finding any evidence to support your proposed "innate talent for math". And I still haven't heard any reason for suspecting that there is any link between mental disorders and mathematical ability. Do you just want to look for a link for no particular reason?[/QUOTE]

I am not looking for anything. I have made it clear what the purpose of this discussion is in my original post. You cannot deduce from what I said in my original post, that I thought there was a link. So your assumption that I made an assumption is incorrect.

If we take Godel, who was clearly an intellectual man, he acted in many ways which to the average person would be regarded as eccentric and unreasonable. Let's not forget that he died because of his mental illness, as he refused to eat if I recall correctly.

Now the paradox is evident here. He could understand the logic of math, but he could not see that his fear of contamination was in fact false.

 

[shyboy]

it looks like that good people just keep a genetic pool, and some unfortunates have to do the dirty work of geniuses

 

[honestrosewater]

Alright, I give up. I don't think this thread is anywhere near PF's standards.

 

[bomba923]

This is going to be a late reply,
but I speculate that it is the initial possession of mental disturbances (problems/issue..if that's what you call them) that brings people to math, art, philosophy, and the such.

Alright, I give up. I don't think this thread is anywhere near PF's standards.

 

[Loren Booda]

I am a physicist with an MS. I developed schizoaffective disorder (an alternation between schizophrenic and bipolar symptoms) in my sophomore year at Yale and had to leave, continuing my studies at home near D. C. 27 years later, I have worked 10 years for the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, volunteered 19 years at the local nature center and 5 years as group leader and visitor at a local nursing home, all of where I apply my genius for social concerns, as opposed to the hard sciences. Along the way, I came to the conclusion that I would feel better and contribute more conscientiously by working closely with sentient beings, not designing missiles and ship hulls. My medicines - antipychotic, mood stabilizer, antidepressant, and minor tranquilizer - help me survive, maintain creativity and enjoy myself more than ever.

Tom Cruise, the elite self-appointed scientist, threatens the progress many with mental illnesses have made. He's a person who has never met an illness he could not overcome - yet. If the body can suffer, Mr. Cruise, why not the brain?

 

[honestrosewater]

It isn't the topic that I object to, it's the passing off of opinion and speculation as undisputed fact, repeated false claims, and general misunderstandings and unwillingness to learn or be corrected. This stuff normally gets a thread closed or sent to (the soon to be closed) GD.

This is going to be a late reply,
but I speculate that it is the initial possession of mental disturbances (problems/issue..if that's what you call them) that brings people to math, art, philosophy, and the such.

Yes, I think a disorder might cause people to avoid and/or seek certain professions. For instance, if someone has a snake phobia, they might avoid working with snakes as a profession, unless they are willing to treat their phobia or accept their suffering. Or someone with a disorder might seek a profession that invloves treating or curing their or similar disorders or otherwise helping people that suffer from them, as Loren Booda seems to have done.
You're talking about people becoming "academics", right? Were you thinking of anything in particular? For instance, being able to work alone much of the time, being more suited to "introverted" personalities, involving little physical risk, etc. Were you thinking their disorders make them actively seek these professions, or do you think they are steered into these professions by trying to avoid other professions?

 

[bomba923]

You're talking about people becoming "academics", right? Were you thinking of anything in particular? For instance, being able to work alone much of the time, being more suited to "introverted" personalities, involving little physical risk, etc.

Well, I admit I wrote assuming that "introversion"+"working alone" were associated with academics--but that is wrong when you think about it.

Were you thinking their disorders make them actively seek these professions, or do you think they are steered into these professions by trying to avoid other professions?

*A little bit of both. The idea was that possessing certain mental disturbances/problems/issues would encourage people to pursue careers with good structure or order or safety, like the nice subjects of mathematics, physics (orderly), philosophy-->fields favoring "rational" analytical ability that would hold back "irrational" fears/emotions/mental-disturbances. Yes, disorders may steer people away from becoming great motivational speakers or world leaders, yet the time spent on the Mathematics, physics, philosophy (actually more than that) would also encourage them within those fields.

Notice I did not examine any evidence, nor define my viewpoints too well . But this is only speculation, by no means even a reasoned judgment! So:shy:, what say you?

 

[honestrosewater]

BTW, my objections weren't directed at you, and though the things I mentioned do bother me personally, it's PF's standards that I was concerned about and that compelled me to try to make corrections where I could.

Well, I admit I wrote assuming that "introversion"+"working alone" were associated with academics--but that is wrong when you think about it.

Well, they're things I casually associate with academics too. You can at least determine what the working conditions of certain professions are, so you're off to a decent start. Which "personality types" are more suited to which professions can be fuzzier, but there are at least some straightforward situations, like specific phobias and jobs involving repeated exposure to the objects of those phobias.
I think the hardest part is generalizing about how people react to and deal with their disorders. For example, you could have four people with almost identical symptoms, each pair having almost identical personalities, and see them all deal with their disorders in different ways. Some people seek treatment right away, some wait, some have supportive family and friends, some don't, some opt for the easiest route, some are willing to suffer for something more important, and so on.
And I don't know if you are arguing for this, but others were talking about a connection not just with the profession chosen but with the person's talent or ability in that profession.

*A little bit of both. The idea was that possessing certain mental disturbances/problems/issues would encourage people to pursue careers with good structure or order or safety, like the nice subjects of mathematics, physics (orderly), philosophy-->fields favoring "rational" analytical ability that would hold back "irrational" fears/emotions/mental-disturbances. Yes, disorders may steer people away from becoming great motivational speakers or world leaders, yet the time spent on the Mathematics, physics, philosophy (actually more than that) would also encourage them within those fields.

Yeah, this is what I meant above- the problems with generalizing about how people deal. For instance, here's a personal account from .

Ira, a forty-eight-year-old man, has suffered from OCD since he was nineteen years old. The following excerpt from his survey response provides us with an answer [about the core of OCD].
"I work in the city, and it's such a filthy place. If I could have my way, I wouldn't go there, that way I wouldn't have to go near so many dirty people- people sneezing, coughing, touching everything- but that's where my law firm is. During the day, I'm not too bad. I have dirty clothes for wearing outside and decontaminated clothes for home. I make sure to keep my hands away from my mouth during the day, and I'll only go out to lunch at certain clean restaurants.
But when I get home, that's when the ordeal begins. I make everyone in the family come into the house through the laundry room. That way they can take their clothes off down there, go straight to the downstairs shower to wash, and then put on house clothes."[/color]

Ira goes on to describe his laundry procedure, taking a shower first, washing "outside" clothes three times, changing gloves and rewashing his hands each time, cleaning the outside of the washer with ammonia during the last two cycles, and running the empty washer twice before washing the "house" clothes. He also describes similar rituals for dealing with groceries and things his family brings home, like his kid's homework. He obviously has contamination obsessions (among them, his family getting AIDS) and compulsions. BTW, he says, "I know none of this makes sense, but..." Now, would you guess that this person works at a law firm? I wonder how often he has to shake hands with clients. And he has a family. Little kids are always dirty. Remember, he's been suffering since he was nineteen, so- assuming he is actually a lawyer- he even went through law school with OCD.
There are many other stories out there, which you can just google for, to get an idea of how varied and specific people's symptoms can be.
For just OCD alone, the same book claims worldwide studies place lifetime prevalence rates at 2-3%, about 1 in every 40 people. You could look for other studies on other disorders and compare those with the percentage of people working in academics to get an idea of any limits it puts on your theory.

Notice I did not examine any evidence, nor define my viewpoints too well . But this is only speculation, by no means even a reasoned judgment! So:shy:, what say you?

Gee, I hope I didn't scare you.

 

[bomba923]

By no means am I an expert on OCD, but I found that whenever I had harmful thoughts (not as intense as those of OCD--but speculatively disturbing), I would just force some kind of mental distraction under the guise of logical or philosophical objectivity-->e.g.,
1) just think of something else
2) concentrate hard on that "something else"
3) Verbalize in my head why returning back to the disturbing thought is illogical/unreasonable-->especially since that "something else" is not any less significant a topic for momentary thinking as the original thought
4) Convince myself that both thoughts lack objective significance
5) (Philosophize further)...or focus on "good" thoughts-->or the most convenient topics at hand for peace of mind
----------------------
Not really OCD, but when alone and without any immediate or planned tasks at hand (or the convenience of carrying out any task of relative importance)...things (disturbing thoughts) just tend to get into my head (sometimes preventing relaxation, unless I might reason myself into it:shy:)
-----------------------------------

Gee, I hope I didn't scare you.

Nah, its good; it seems I can't help but speculate!(almost about anything!)

 

[honestrosewater]

Well, I'm not qualified to give serious advice. But just FYI, the content of the thoughts or images isn't relevant- it's how they make you feel and how you respond to them- and for a diagnosis, how much they interfere with your life. Occasional disturbing thoughts and anxiety is normal. Pathological anxiety differs from normal anxiety in being unreasonably intense, disruptive, uncontrollable, exaggerated, irrational, and persistent.
For OCD in particular, http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic1654.htm lists some of the biological aspects, but classical and operant conditioning also play a major role in its development and maintenance- and not only in OCD, but in other anxiety disorders as well. I can't find a thorough link (books explain much more), but here's a little:

While learning a conditioned response slows dramatically in Alzheimer patients, it appears to do just the opposite in people with obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) and people with autism, finds Indiana University's Steinmetz and his colleagues.

In a series of studies Steinmetz conducted with Indiana University's Dick McFall, PhD, JoAnne Tracy, PhD, Sushmita Ghose and Tamara Stecher, the researchers found that under some conditions people with symptoms of OCD condition three times faster than people without OCD.

"Normally, people show consistent conditioned responses after about 10 to 15 trials," says Steinmetz. "Our OCD subjects showed consistent conditioned responses after as few as three to five trials."

This finding implies that people with OCD make associations between neutral and aversive stimuli more quickly than people without the disorder, says Steinmetz. That's consistent with theories that people with OCD, and perhaps more general anxiety disorders, may suffer from a general susceptibility to aversive conditioning, he says.

- http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar99/alzh.html

They're talking about classical conditioning. It's also thought that compulsions are acquired and maintained through operant conditioning (done to avoid punishment (anxiety, obsessions)). For someone with OCD, avoidance behavior and developing neutralizing rituals is exactly what usually happens and is exacty the wrong thing to do. Someone put the basic idea of Exposure and Response Prevention (a main treatment for OCD) as "If x frightens you, then we'll help you overcome your fear by confronting and never avoiding x." So you end up having to "unlearn" your conditioned responses. It's very interesting to me to think of having a biological predisposition to actually learn a specific behavior. Well, it's complicated, but if you happen to read a an example of how the process might go, it's surprisingly, well, predictable.
Anyway, if you can't easily dismiss the thoughts, I think it's just generally a good idea to try to confront them instead of avoiding or inventing rituals to neutralize them.

 

[Nyxie]

People love to be in denial that the majority of great mathematicians did in fact suffer from at least a bit of mental illness. Some mathematicians with signs of mental illness severe enough to cause some type of disability: Cantor, Godel, Ramanujan, Isaac Newton. Russell had suffered major depression. Taniyama committed suicide. Nikola Tesla deserves mention (OCD), though he was an inventor. Albert Einstein also, though he wasn't a mathematician strictly speaking.
If you don't believe me, inform yourself.

I believe that both the mental strain of pushing the mind to its limits and the difficulties of society, which is dominated by the mediocre, introduce risk of mental illness commensurate with intellectual capability. This has more to do with intelligence than with mathematicians, I would guess, but I'm not entirely sure.

My friend and I joked that Cantor seemed to have thought so hard and long about infinity that he scrambled his brain, which is why he ended up in a mental institution for several years of his life.

I'm a math major and I have a mental illness, if that means anything. So I feel better knowing that I'm not alone in feeling lonely and frustrated with the world, and in distorting reality through my overrationalization.

Overall though even if the mental illnesses of many mathematicians were covered up or overlooked, it's clear that not all were unhappy or bipolar (Leonhard Euler in particular seemed like a happy guy!) Madness doesn't produce mathematics, but mathematicians often suffer mental or emotional disorders. I think they suffer emotional disorders before doing math or psychosis afterwards.

More on the subject:
http://www.lomont.org/Math/Talks/Mathematics%20and%20Insanity.pdf
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/39/11/36.full

 

[micromass]

People love to be in denial that the majority of great mathematicians did in fact suffer from at least a bit of mental illness. Some mathematicians with signs of mental illness severe enough to cause some type of disability: Cantor, Godel, Ramanujan, Isaac Newton. Russell had suffered major depression. Taniyama committed suicide. Nikola Tesla deserves mention (OCD), though he was an inventor. Albert Einstein also, though he wasn't a mathematician strictly speaking.
If you don't believe me, inform yourself.

I believe that both the mental strain of pushing the mind to its limits and the difficulties of society, which is dominated by the mediocre, introduce risk of mental illness commensurate with intellectual capability. This has more to do with intelligence than with mathematicians, I would guess, but I'm not entirely sure.

My friend and I joked that Cantor seemed to have thought so hard and long about infinity that he scrambled his brain, which is why he ended up in a mental institution for several years of his life.

I'm a math major and I have a mental illness, if that means anything. So I feel better knowing that I'm not alone in feeling lonely and frustrated with the world, and in distorting reality through my overrationalization.

Overall though even if the mental illnesses of many mathematicians were covered up or overlooked, it's clear that not all were unhappy or bipolar (Leonhard Euler in particular seemed like a happy guy!) Madness doesn't produce mathematics, but mathematicians often suffer mental or emotional disorders. I think they suffer emotional disorders before doing math or psychosis afterwards.

More on the subject:
http://www.lomont.org/Math/Talks/Mathematics%20and%20Insanity.pdf
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/39/11/36.full

Of course some mathematicians suffer from a mental illness. But the point is, do you have evidence that mental illness are somehow more common amond mathematicians than among other people? I don't immediately believe this... The only disease which does seem to happen more among mathematicians seems to be schizophrenia, but even then, this is just a correlation and not a causation.

But aside from psychosis, there has not been shown a link between mathematical abilities and diseases like OCD, depression, bipolar,...

 

[Stephen Tashi]

. to be a bit poetic 'There is a fine line between genius and insanity'.

I prefer this version:

"There is very little difference between genius and insanity - but genius has its limits."

 

[Nyxie]

Extreme mental strain precluded my illness, as it did for very many scientists, mathematicians, philosophers and intellectuals. I think there is a link, much the way you can "fry" a computer with information and processing overload. I experienced this, and no one can tell me that my brain strain had nothing to do with the illness.

We don't understand the brain well enough to say for sure, but studies generally find that intellectual people may be more prone to such illness. There is good evidence, but it remains inconclusive.

 

[HallsofIvy]

Extreme mental strain precluded my illness, as it did for very many scientists, mathematicians, philosophers and intellectuals.

Surely this isn't what you meant to say! "Precluded" means "prevented".

I think there is a link, much the way you can "fry" a computer with information and processing overload. I experienced this, and no one can tell me that my brain strain had nothing to do with the illness.

We don't understand the brain well enough to say for sure, but studies generally find that intellectual people may be more prone to such illness. There is good evidence, but it remains inconclusive.

 

[Nyxie]

Surely this isn't what you meant to say! "Precluded" means "prevented".

Lol! Uh, scratch that, reverse it.

 

[UMyronGaines]

preceded?

 

[Gerder10]

In the meantime, Vasistha Narayan Singh had nationalistic dreams and thought of doing his matribhoomi, Bharat, proud; rather that stay on in US as his HOD and NASA wanted him to do. He returned to India and worked at ISI Cal, IIT K and TIFR Bombay. His parents got him married to an Army Officer's Daughter with some good dowry. This army officer was from Jaipur. Due to reasons unknown, marriage did not work out and his wife left him after sometime to never come back again to him. This left him heartbroken and made his condition worse. Soon after that, He lost his mental balance and was admitted to Mental Hospital, Kanke, Ranchi. But, Dr Jagannath Mishra got him out of Kanke as he had to get some other person admitted there, in the VIP ward. He did go to Merutt hospital and after that he ran away. He suffers from Schizonfrania. He has been treated by NIMHANS Bangalore also but not much details are available. His family did not have enough money to support his treatment and Bihar Govt threw him out of Kanke which made his condition worst. It appears that he fled from Merut Mental Hospital and was untraceable for many years until someone from his village saw him as a ragpicker in Chapra in mid 90s and informed his family.