Israeli Palestinian Problem

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  • #26
Zero
Originally posted by kat
I'm not, really.:wink: [/B] I'd like you to be as detailed as possible to avoid misunderstandings. I think we're having a very good dialogue, don't you?

[/B]Well, before going further I think maybe we should discuss why you think they "illegally" control huge portions of Palestinian land? The interim (oslo 2) agreements spell out fairly clearly who is responsible for which areas. The area that most attacks are coming from is the area that (under the interim agreements) the PA has responsibility for policing. Yet they not only fail to police but are often complicit in terrorist activities. It's also interesting to note that in good faith the Israeli's armed and initially attempted to train the PA police force. (we did touch on this slightly months ago)
This is one reason that in my outline I stress the importance of an international force to assist in developing security in the palestinian areas...unfortunately I don't think it's realistic that this is something that will happen anytime soon for multiple reasons. [/B]
Anyhoo, to get back on topic...the 'good faith' thing with Israel is hit and miss at best, because there are always more reasons to distrust than to trust. I think that most of the reforms you outlined earlier in the thread may have a chance, but until they are in place the Palestinians are not going to cooperate much with Israel.
 
  • #27
Ganshauk
OMG. A real thinker. Thank you, bro.

I have often thought that the despotic attitude of Isreal stems from WWII.

I thought about it. Then I thought some more.

In the end, I figure that less than 10% of the "emotional" response stems from that factor.
The biggest factor IMHO, comes from things that occurred more than a millenia ago - those jews, they have the memory capacity of super-elephants.

Now take any race that has been bad-ass enough to survive 3 or 4 millenia without a home. Plant them in a piece of hell to call thier own. Even the Dahli-Lama would turn ninja.

These guys are not the best nationalists. History shows thier faults. The one good thing they got going for them is thier long history. They finally got a home.

Heck, we got just a little pounding at WTC. Imagine if that kind of crap was happening daily. What would you do?

Frankly, I admire the jews in thier stupidity. I would have gone for total extermination long ago, while it was still kosher :P

Damn good thing I'm not in charge.
 
  • #28
FZ+
1,561
3
Interestingly, there appears to be a rift developing between the Israeli army and the Israeli government over the handling of the continuing government. Surprisingly, perhaps, it is senior army officials that are raising voices about current policy being counter productive, and espousing a move towards moderatism, whilst the government is stubborning defending continuing their policy.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2003/11/01/2003074185

Israel's army chief has exposed deep divisions between the military and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon by branding the government's hardline treatment of Palestinian civilians as counterproductive and saying that the policy intensifies hatred and strengthens "terror organizations."
 
  • #29
Zero
Originally posted by FZ+
Interestingly, there appears to be a rift developing between the Israeli army and the Israeli government over the handling of the continuing government. Surprisingly, perhaps, it is senior army officials that are raising voices about current policy being counter productive, and espousing a move towards moderatism, whilst the government is stubborning defending continuing their policy.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2003/11/01/2003074185
Well...the right-wing in Israel has held power through fear. They, in a very real sense, need terrorism to hold power. If not for that, they would be voted out in a heartbeat.

Interesting parallel with the U.S., actually.
 
  • #32
kat
26
0
Originally posted by pelastration
Here a link to: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3334235.stm

It shows a satellite photo of a Palestian village surrounded by the wall. Looks to me it's more a 'concentration camp'.
Not sure..but I think that is the West Bank..and one of the areas the wall actually follows the 67 armistice line.

Anyone see the irony in these to statments from the article?
The agency maintains it is not taking a position on the fence, but that its role is to make the information available to all.
and then from the agency member...lol

"There is an increasing degree of consciousness that this wall is not just about security," said Mr Retiere.
Lol, I think they've just stated their non-position position eh?
 
  • #33
22
0
Some facts and stuff...

Several things.

First, here's some info from my archaeology book about the history of the people in Palestine:

===========================================================

Israelites, a Semitic people, apparently of nomadic origin, whose emergence in the Levant is identified with a shift of settlement at the start if the Iron Age (c. 1200 bc), when a new pattern of small villages dispersed in upland regions replaced the urban life of the Bronze Age. Explanations for this process range from the nomadic invasion thesis (derived from Biblical accounts in Exodus) to settlement of indigenous populations of nomads and brigands, to social revolution by the urban lower classes at the end of the Bronze Age. The Israelites' conquest of areas occupied by the Canaanites brought them into an ultimately successful conflict with the Philistines. The major building works carried out under the united kingdom belong to the reign of Solomon. The northern kingdom of Israel (see Samaria) was conquered by the Assyrians in the late 8th century BC, while the southern kingdom of Judah was reduced by the Babylonians in the early 6th century BC. See also Jerusalem.

Jerusalem, a city in the Judaean hills, Israel, which has been occupied for thousands of years and which has been excavated virtually continuously since the 1860s. Comparatively little remains of ancient Jerusalem, chiefly because of the repeated destructions suffered by the city (e.g. that of Titus in 70 AD) and later Byzantine and Islamic overbuilding. The first major construction at Jerusalem seems to have been the stone fortifications of the late Bronze Age. Jerusalem was captured by the Israelites under Davin in c.996 BC and extended to the north by Solomon, who built a temple and palace in an area later overbuilt by the Herodian temple platform, and by Hezekiah, whose water tunnel is still visible. Jerusalem was patronised by the Byzantine emperors beause of its Christian associations and by Islamic caliphs as a holy city. Most of the walls to be seen at Jerusalem are the work of Suleiman the Magnificent (1538-41 AD) on top of Herodian and Roman foundations, while the octagonal 'Dome of the Rock' (685-692 AD) is the most striking of the Islamic buildings in Jerusalem.

Canaanites, an ethnic group identified with the sophisticated urban civilisation of the Levant during the Bronze Age (see Hazor, Jericho, Lachish, Beit Mersim). The Canaanites were dislodged from much of their territory by the Israelites and Philistines, but much of their culture persisted among the Phoenicians.

Phoenicians, a Semitic people, the cultural heirs of the Canaanites, who flourished as traders from their ports of Byblos, Sidon, and Tyre during the 1st millennium BC. They are credited with the founding of Carthage and the invention of the alphabet.

Philistines, one of the Sea Peoples whose occupation of southern Palestine marks the beginning of the Iron Age in that region. The five chief cities of the Philistines (the 'Pentapolis') were Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Gath, and Ekron.

===========================================================

As for terrorism, I personally define it as an attack against civilians for some political cause. Here's a definition from dictionary.com: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism

Yes, I count acts of this nature perpetrated by governments as terrorism. This includes the 8000+ civilians killed in Iraq by the USA this year. It includes the children and other civilians killed by Israel in lands which were occupied by the Palestinians before the Israelites ever showed up.

===========================================================

History of the Israel/Palestine conflict:

GENERAL:
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html [Broken]
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/ec8db69f77e7a33e052567270057e591/3b58e8d0adf62b5f852561230077c62d [Broken]
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/025974039acfb171852560de00548bbe [Broken]

HISTORY:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0 [Broken]
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309 [Broken]
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/c426c561856178058025647400468f80 [Broken]
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/40af4c8615bc9837802564740046f767 [Broken]

UN RESOLUTIONS:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253 [Broken]
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/59210ce6d04aef61852560c3005da209?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,242 [Broken]
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/7fb7c26fcbe80a31852560c50065f878?OpenDocument&Highlight=2,338 [Broken]

MAPS:
http://domino.un.org/maps/pal_maps.htm [Broken]


===========================================================

Interesting reading for those willing to actually learn.

Definition of "ethnic cleansing": http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic cleansing Note the definition is: "The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide." Now, Israel is doing at least two of those things.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7567019%255E1702,00.html [Broken]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,917834,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4629052-103681,00.html [Broken]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2828985.stm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/unitedstates/unpolicy/gen2003/0115us.htm [Broken]
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/veto/2002/1223israel.htm
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B6E27ADF-9E5B-45CD-A4CD-403A3BCF3D39.htm [Broken]
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7543145%255E401,00.html [Broken]
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EE06A7BC-F8D2-4CE9-8A9F-DC2A62B2C133.htm [Broken]
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D8B2E59A-F705-48A7-B6F7-588E9F37B5B9.htm [Broken]
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/67979658-79FE-4CD1-83A4-7D378A081848.htm [Broken]
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/67979658-79FE-4CD1-83A4-7D378A081848.htm [Broken]
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7D5620B5-5846-4AD8-8441-BB1B14B6A48A.htm [Broken]
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D3F4ACBB-A265-4268-AFEC-6996D0F835D0.htm [Broken]
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1BF523F3-A395-451D-9910-36B7BF02B7DB.htm [Broken]
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7473991%255E401,00.html [Broken]
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AE871B47-A5D9-428E-B8E5-26E52D387622.htm [Broken]
http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,137218-1-9,00.html
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/990902/1999090222.html [Broken]
http://wwww.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/6686f45896f15dbc852567ae00530132/7738125ef7c2ca9bc1256c4b00470a79?OpenDocument [Broken]
http://abc.net.au/news/2002/11/item20021127185951_1.htm [Broken]
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/07/23/mideast/
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/4227466.htm [Broken]
http://www.ummah.com/inewsletter/massacres/palestine/index14.htm [Broken]
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/breaking_news/4227466.htm
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/04/News/News.44530.html [Broken]
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/95/148/05_3.html
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/020926/afp/020926130246top.html [Broken]
http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1038396983&view=unsearch&docrank=1&numhitsfound=58&query=Israel%20civilians%20dead&&docid=1904&docdb=pr2000&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1 [Broken]
http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1038396983&view=unsearch&docrank=2&numhitsfound=58&query=Israel%20civilians%20dead&&docid=1524&docdb=pr1996&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1 [Broken]
http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1038396983&view=unsearch&docrank=4&numhitsfound=58&query=Israel%20civilians%20dead&&docid=1736&docdb=pr2000&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1 [Broken]
http://srch1.un.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1038396983&view=unsearch&docrank=7&numhitsfound=58&query=Israel%20civilians%20dead&&docid=804&docdb=pr1996&dbname=web&sorting=BYRELEVANCE&operator=and&TemplateName=predoc.tmpl&setCookie=1 [Broken]
http://electronicintifada.net/forreference/keyfigures/sharon.html [Broken]

And finally, the diary of Rachel Corrie makes interesting reading: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,916246,00.html
 
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