Fukushima Japan earthquake - contamination & consequences outside Fukushima NPP

[zapperzero]

Can you elaborate?

On the anger issue? I am afraid this is the wrong thread. I am angry because the town should have been evacuated, with full support from TEPCO and the Japanese gov't.

 

[Astronuc]

Would it be better to forcibly evacuate more people despite what is said here http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,780810,00.html ? Don't think so.

TEPCO and the government should support folks who would like to leave, as in voluntary evacuation, rather than live with exposure to the radioactivity/radiation that TEPCO caused.

 

[Gary7]

I would point out that some of the city of Namie is located within the 20 km evacuation zone, and some is within the wider "planned evacuation zone". The city government of Namie has encouraged people to relocate, and they are assisting people in this regard. There are temporary shelters set up in Fukushima city for use by residents of Namie, and there are a number of schemes from the city, prefecture, and national government set up to provide cash for the citizens of Namie. Information direct from the Namie city hall website http://www.town.namie.fukushima.jp/ .

Recently there are also movements to get cash settlements from Tepco.

Whether or not all the above is sufficient or fair or just, I shall leave it to others to hash out on the political thread.

 

[zapperzero]

I would point out that some of the city of Namie is located within the 20 km evacuation zone, and some is within the wider "planned evacuation zone". The city government of Namie has encouraged people to relocate, and they are assisting people in this regard. There are temporary shelters set up in Fukushima city for use by residents of Namie, and there are a number of schemes from the city, prefecture, and national government set up to provide cash for the citizens of Namie. Information direct from the Namie city hall website http://www.town.namie.fukushima.jp/ .

Recently there are also movements to get cash settlements from Tepco.

Whether or not all the above is sufficient or fair or just, I shall leave it to others to hash out on the political thread.

The site says there were tsunami refugees living in a shelter in Namie, as late as this month.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=ro&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http://www.town.namie.fukushima.jp/%3Fp%3D6422&usg=ALkJrhgR9QrO6h8iTA1jcUM166dY0gtrJw
There is also talk there of building temporary housing. This does not sound like a planned evacuation!

Not a question of politics, but of public health and radiation safety.

 

[rowmag]

North winds and rain for the first time in quite a while in Tokyo, while we were all out enjoying the a break from the heatwave, environmental radiation clearly spiked during the short rain storm - from o.o65 to 0.01 uSv in Kawasaki, 0.058 to 0.093 in Saitama city. You can see it very clearly here: http://guregoro.sakura.ne.jp/radioactivity/kanagawa/ and a screen grab here

data is taken from official prefectural monitoring stations.

Yes, I had noticed this in another location which was also downwind of Fukushima Daiichi and raining heavily that day. Two questions, for anyone who knows:

1) Why did the levels drop again after the rain stopped? If it was Cesium being brought down, should it not have remained on the ground and raised the background level permanently afterwards (as happened in the March bursts in several places)? But it doesn't, it drops back to the previous level after the rain stops. Why the difference this time from the spikes in March?

2) What does this imply about the ongoing level of atmospheric emissions from the plant?

 

[Gary7]

I don't wish to engage in a polemic about what the country, prefecture, or city is doing (or isn't doing) to insure the health of its citizens. I was pointing out that parts of Namie are within the evacuation zone, and other parts are in the "planned evacuation zone" (whether or not the "planned" in either the translation or the original Japanese is appropriate or not I leave to the linguists). And I was also pointing out the existence of financial help at the national, prefectural, and city level. I would be extremely surprised if anyone in Namie city is finding life to be normal.

The Adatara Stadium in the article for which you provided the link, is part of the temporary shelters available to the residents of Namie. It is located in the city of Nihonmatsu, some 10 miles or so beyond the "planned evacuation zone". It is being returned to its original function as a stadium, and so Namie town is asking those sheltering in that stadium to relocate to other temporary shelters (which are located throughout Nihonmatsu and Fukushima city).

 

[zapperzero]

I don't wish to engage in a polemic about what the country, prefecture, or city is doing (or isn't doing) to insure the health of its citizens.

Yet, this is exactly what you are doing.

I was pointing out that parts of Namie are within the evacuation zone, and other parts are in the "planned evacuation zone" (whether or not the "planned" in either the translation or the original Japanese is appropriate or not I leave to the linguists). And I was also pointing out the existence of financial help at the national, prefectural, and city level. I would be extremely surprised if anyone in Namie city is finding life to be normal.

I, for one, am extremely surprised that there is still anyone in Namie city. Do you happen to know why this is so?

The Adatara Stadium in the article for which you provided the link, is part of the temporary shelters available to the residents of Namie. It is located in the city of Nihonmatsu, some 10 miles or so beyond the "planned evacuation zone". It is being returned to its original function as a stadium, and so Namie town is asking those sheltering in that stadium to relocate to other temporary shelters (which are located throughout Nihonmatsu and Fukushima city).

Oh. Fukushima city. That makes it all better... not.

Have you seen this?
http://www.town.namie.fukushima.jp/?p=6455

16 uSv/h in the air (h=1m) on school grounds? Please tell me no-one is actually going to school there! It comes out to 20-something mSv/year, even assuming 8hr days, six months vacations and no other exposure!

 

[nikkkom]

You know, I am very critical of nuclear industry and government. However, I also try to be reasonable in what I demand/expect from them. You are not.

I, for one, am extremely surprised that there is still anyone in Namie city. Do you happen to know why this is so?

Oh. Fukushima city. That makes it all better... not.

Where do you want people to be relocated? South pole?
Namie is right in the center of the north-westerly radioactive fallout strip. Fukushima city is four times farther from F1 and has contamination levels about 20 times lower than Namie. I don't see what's wrong in relocating people from Namie to Fukushima city.

Have you seen this?
http://www.town.namie.fukushima.jp/?p=6455

16 uSv/h in the air (h=1m) on school grounds? Please tell me no-one is actually going to school there!

I think schools don't work in August.

It comes out to 20-something mSv/year, even assuming 8hr days, six months vacations and no other exposure!

2 roentgen/year, yeah. Everybody will die DIE DIE DIE! I mean, can you calm down please for a second?

Even discounting the effects of further decrease of these levels due to decay, natural washout and decontamination, this level of *external* exposure is not notably dangerous. For the comparison, people in Pripyat got upwards of 30 roentgens *in one day*. Now _that_ was a serious exposure.

The bigger problem is internal exposure (children will drink local water and inhale dust and get Cs and Sr in their body and bones). Japan government needs to start decontamination programme (in fact, I expected it to be in full swing by now) to make cities and roads safer. I am puzzled that this does not seem to be happening. If I would be a Japanese, I'd be angry at _that_.

 

[Gary7]

As I said, I am not interested in a polemical discussion. However, if my pointing out factual errors is considered polemical, I am ready to stand unrepentantly guilty.

I have no idea whether or not people are still living in Namie, but since part of it is in the mandatory evacuation zone, and since the city has encouraged residents to leave, I would be surprised if there were many still living there. Regarding the schools, according to the Namie city website, the students have been relocated to schools outside of the evacuation zone.

 

[zapperzero]

You know, I am very critical of nuclear industry and government. However, I also try to be reasonable in what I demand/expect from them. You are not.

Ad hominem.

Where do you want people to be relocated? South pole?

Oh, anywhere East of a line running N-S 30 km East of Fukushima NPP should do, for now. Not on the coast, though.

Namie is right in the center of the north-westerly radioactive fallout strip. Fukushima city is four times farther from F1 and has contamination levels about 20 times lower than Namie. I don't see what's wrong in relocating people from Namie to Fukushima city.

There are hotspots in Fukushima city too. They have not been mapped properly, let alone decontaminated. It is not a good place to be, especially for people who have already gotten a significant dose.

I think schools don't work in August.

Yes. They stopped in July and will resume in September.

2 roentgen/year, yeah. Everybody will die DIE DIE DIE! I mean, can you calm down please for a second?

These guys http://www.wellesley.edu/ScienceCenter/Safety/maximum.html say 0.5 R should be maximum exposure per year for a member of the general public. What makes you believe otherwise?

Even discounting the effects of further decrease of these levels due to decay, natural washout and decontamination, this level of *external* exposure is not notably dangerous.

No? Again, citation please, as they say on Wikipedia. Also, please remember that this is only the dose from going to school we're talking about. I doubt the rest of the city is much cleaner.

For the comparison, people in Pripyat got upwards of 30 roentgens *in one day*. Now _that_ was a serious exposure.

And they were evacuated. What is your point?

The bigger problem is internal exposure (children will drink local water and inhale dust and get Cs and Sr in their body and bones).

Yes. There is that. In fact, 16 uSv/h at 1 meter from the ground, so long after the accident and with infinitesimal current release rates, pretty much spells "cesium in the ground, and lots of it".

Japan government needs to start decontamination programme (in fact, I expected it to be in full swing by now) to make cities and roads safer. I am puzzled that this does not seem to be happening. If I would be a Japanese, I'd be angry at _that_.

I am more than puzzled. I am angry. I am also not Japanese, so I must seem strange to you, I realize.

 

[Bodge]

High concentrations of radioactive isotopes of Neptunium, Lanthanum, Yttrium, Barium, Strontium, Cobalt, Silver and Zirconium found 35km from Fuk-1.

In 'plant species' upto 500 beq/kg of Neptunium-239 was found.

Were there is Neptunium there has to be Plutonium and Uranium too.

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/08/neptunium-239-was-indeed-detected-in.html

 

[joewein]

Here is the slide show containing the data:
http://user.ecc.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~cshozu/images/seminar.pdf

 

[rmattila]

Yes, I had noticed this in another location which was also downwind of Fukushima Daiichi and raining heavily that day. Two questions, for anyone who knows:

1) Why did the levels drop again after the rain stopped? If it was Cesium being brought down, should it not have remained on the ground and raised the background level permanently afterwards (as happened in the March bursts in several places)? But it doesn't, it drops back to the previous level after the rain stops. Why the difference this time from the spikes in March?

2) What does this imply about the ongoing level of atmospheric emissions from the plant?

If there's radon in the soil (I don't know what the situation is in Japan), one explanation for external radiation peaks during and briefly after heavy rainfall could be wash-down of short-lived daughters on Rn-222: http://www.hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1241.html

 

[zapperzero]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/world/asia/22japan.html?_r=1

NYT says official admission that the exclusion zone will remain closed indefinitely is due in the next few days. Still nothing about hotspots outside it.

EDITED for sensationalism

 

[alpi]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/world/asia/22japan.html?_r=1

Official admission that the exclusion zone will remain closed indefinitely

Is "The New York Times" an official? Or ex-skf.blogspot?

 

[zapperzero]

Is "The New York Times" an official? Or ex-skf.blogspot?

NYT is citing "major media outlets" which in turn are speculating on an imminent gov't move. Also, although I follow ex-skf, I found this with google. I see where you're heading, though, and will amend my previous, if still possible.

 

[zapperzero]

Is "The New York Times" an official? Or ex-skf.blogspot?

Apparently the source is Naoto Kan, as cited by Kyodo news agency.
http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110822D22JF463.htm

 

[rowmag]

If there's radon in the soil (I don't know what the situation is in Japan), one explanation for external radiation peaks during and briefly after heavy rainfall could be wash-down of short-lived daughters on Rn-222: http://www.hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1241.html

Thank you. Interesting. I had no idea.

So the wind coming from Fukushima Daiichi would have been just a coincidence, if this was the cause. (Or... could radon created by uranium decay in the melted/damaged fuel have been blown over? Would that even make sense?)

 

[nikkkom]

Where do you want people to be relocated? South pole?

Oh, anywhere East of a line running N-S 30 km East of Fukushima NPP should do, for now. Not on the coast, though.

Please be informed that Fukushima city is about 40 kilometers to the East from F1 NPP, and about the same distance to the North. (Google maps says that distance from it to F1 is ~61 km, and 40^2 + 40^2 < 60^2, so at least one side of the triangle should be more than 40 km).

IOW: Fukushima city fulfils your criteria above.

 

[zapperzero]

Please be informed that Fukushima city is about 40 kilometers to the East from F1 NPP, and about the same distance to the North. (Google maps says that distance from it to F1 is ~61 km, and 40^2 + 40^2 < 60^2, so at least one side of the triangle should be more than 40 km).

IOW: Fukushima city fulfils your criteria above.

You may want to check that compass of yours

 

[Bodge]

Regarding radioactive Sulfur-35,

"Our model predicts that the concentration in the marine boundary layer at Fukushima, was approximately 200,000 atoms per m3, which is approximately 365 times above expected natural concentrations."

They believe approx. 0.7% of that reached Scripps, California.

S-35 was produced by neutron bombardment of seawater.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/08/11/1109449108.abstract

Please see my post in the other https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3463999&postcount=11012"

 

[alpi]

Regarding radioactive Sulfur-35,

"Our model predicts that the concentration in the marine boundary layer at Fukushima, was approximately 200,000 atoms per m3, which is approximately 365 times above expected natural concentrations."

They believe approx. 0.7% of that reached Scripps, California. ...

Why would anyone care what these people believe?

 

[jim hardy]

There were significant solar flares Feb 15 and March 9. I assume Scripps scientists would allow for them...

i didnt see in article linked a mention of that, only that solar flares are a natural source of that sulfur isotope.

old jim

 

[Bodge]

Re. Solar Flares and 'their model',

I don't have access to PNAS, maybe you can take it up with the authors:

Antra Priyadarshi, Gerardo Dominguez, Mark H. Thiemens

abstract: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/08/11/1109449108.abstract

supporting info: http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/08/15/1109449108.DCSupplemental/pnas.1109449108_SI.pdf

BTW, they actually wrote that 0.7% of the FUK-1 sulfur concentration reached "southern California", not Scripps - that was my mistake.

 

[tsutsuji]

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-fukushima/20110823/0445_jokusenryo.html Helicopter borne radiation surveys will be started before next October in 22 prefectures from Aomori to Aichi. The surveys must be done before snow starts falling. At present helicopter surveys have been released only for Fukushima, Miyagi and Ibaraki. The results of the Tochigi helicopter survey will be released soon. The helicopter survey is already started in Yamagata. It is starting in Gunma on 23 August, and by the end of this month in Niigata. Some of the other prefectures will use their own helicopters instead of the ministry of education and science ones. Helicopters fly at a 150~300 m altitude, and the surface radiation levels have to be computed from the helicopter gamma ray data. The 22 prefectures are Miyagi, Akita, Yamagata, Iwate, Fukushima, Aomori, Tokyo, Nagano, Niigata, Yamanashi, Kanagawa, Gunma, Ibaraki, Chiba, Tochigi, Saitama, Aichi, Ishikawa, Shizuoka, Fukui, Toyama, Gifu.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-fukushima/20110823/0445_hoshikusa.html Fukushima prefecture has completed a report on the causes of the cow contamination case that was found last week. Although the hay was imported from abroad and stored indoors, as it is known that the surrounding area was highly contaminated, it is believed that the hay was contaminated by the air flowing into the cowhouse's walkway where the straw was stored. Although no straw was remaining in the cowhouse for analysis, Fukushima prefecture insists that "the cause is known" and that the Fukushima beef ban must be lifted. [Worse of all, does not this seem to imply that the theory that chickens and pigs are safe because they are grown indoors and fed with imported food, is collapsing?]

 

[tsutsuji]

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-fukushima/20110824/index.html The ministry of education has officially discarded its goal to achieve less than 20 mSv / year or 3.8 μSv / hour in schools. Instead the goal is now 1 mSv / year or 1 μSv / hour.

http://www.aist.go.jp/aist_j/press_release/pr2011/pr20110824/pr20110824.html A press release of the National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology nano particles department, saying they developed nano particles of prussian blue available in different shapes suitable for many kinds of cesium decontamination operations.

 

[zapperzero]

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-fukushima/20110824/index.html The ministry of education has officially discarded its goal to achieve less than 20 mSv / year or 3.8 μSv / hour in schools. Instead the goal is now 1 mSv / year or 1 μSv / hour.

Excellent news!

 

[zapperzero]

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201108240292.html
TEPCO announces it will start monitoring local fallout (5-10 km radius) and steam emissions from the plant. Also planned: new radiation sensors for drywells.

Better extremely, unaccountably, criminally late than never, eh?

 

[NUCENG]

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201108240292.html
TEPCO announces it will start monitoring local fallout (5-10 km radius) and steam emissions from the plant. Also planned: new radiation sensors for drywells.

Better extremely, unaccountably, criminally late than never, eh?

The article says they are using water filled tubs tubs as a new collection method to determine if measurements they conducted in July and August are overestimating releases by including radiation deposited and re-released as airborne radioactivity. Your comment implies that they haven't been monitoring previouslywhich is disproven by the article references to monitoring in July and August. If their new method allows them to be more accurate on release measurements and lowers the estimated releases, that is good news for the Japanese. But my guess is that you will be disappointed or even accuse them of fudging the results.

The news that the exposure standards for schools and children have been lowered is good news. Implementing better measurement methods that reveal more information about what is really happening is good news. Temperatures on RPVs dropping belpow 100 DegC is good news. If you don't recognize what is good, it will hurt your credibility on your valid criticisms. If we continually beat up TEPCO and GovJapan when they are doing something right, what motivation do they have to continue to tell us anything or expend the effort to provide information in English?

 

[zapperzero]

The article says they are using water filled tubs tubs as a new collection method to determine if measurements they conducted in July and August are overestimating releases by including radiation deposited and re-released as airborne radioactivity. Your comment implies that they haven't been monitoring previously which is disproven by the article references to monitoring in July and August. If their new method allows them to be more accurate on release measurements and lowers the estimated releases, that is good news for the Japanese. But my guess is that you will be disappointed or even accuse them of fudging the results.

The news that the exposure standards for schools and children have been lowered is good news. Implementing better measurement methods that reveal more information about what is really happening is good news. Temperatures on RPVs dropping belpow 100 DegC is good news. If you don't recognize what is good, it will hurt your credibility on your valid criticisms. If we continually beat up TEPCO and GovJapan when they are doing something right, what motivation do they have to continue to tell us anything or expend the effort to provide information in English?

Yes. It is all good news, I honestly meant what I said: better late than never. Have you seen the July and August numbers they are referring to? I must have missed them.

OTOH I still haven't seen the data re: steam that they had promised to gather since June, iirc, the helicopter survey was pushed back to October (firmly in "next gov't's problem" land) and so on and so forth.

IMO, the reason we are getting any information at all is simple and has nothing to do with our goodwill: there is a line between "apparent bumbling inefficiency" and "outright lies, in violation of various laws". TEPCO and the J-gov are staying (to their credit, ultimately) JUST on the lawful side of that line.

EDIT: There are skeletons in the closet. Have you seen this?
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3468442&postcount=288