Joule-thomson effect and linde process

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter abdo799
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Process Thermodynamics
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Joule-Thomson effect and the Linde process, specifically focusing on the mechanisms of temperature change during gas expansion and subsequent liquefaction. Participants explore the interplay between potential energy (PE) and kinetic energy (KE) in this context, as well as the conditions under which gas condenses into liquid.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the decrease in temperature during the Joule-Thomson effect is due to the work done by gas molecules expanding, which increases their potential energy and decreases their kinetic energy.
  • The same participant expresses confusion about how liquefaction occurs in the Linde process, given that liquid molecules are closer together than gas molecules, and questions how potential energy is released without heat exchange with the reservoir.
  • Another participant proposes that small droplets of gas condense during expansion, drawing a parallel to cloud formation where gas cools and condenses as it rises and expands.
  • This participant notes that during condensation, the temperature remains constant, and the energy required for gas expansion is sourced from the heat of condensation of the gas that is condensing.
  • A later reply confirms the idea that some gas condenses and that the heat needed for this process is absorbed from the expanding gas.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the mechanisms of the Joule-Thomson effect and the Linde process. While there is some agreement on the condensation process, the overall discussion remains unresolved with respect to the specific dynamics of energy transfer and phase change.

Contextual Notes

Participants do not fully clarify the assumptions regarding the heat exchange processes or the conditions under which the Joule-Thomson effect and Linde process operate, leaving some aspects of the discussion open to interpretation.

abdo799
Messages
168
Reaction score
4
According to the j-t effect the decrease in the temperature is a result of the work done by molecule to expand thus increasing their PE and decreasing their KE, but in the linde process the next step is liquification, i am having trouble understanding how it happens, since the intermolecular distance between liquid molecules are shorter than gas, so the molecules have to get rid of the PE they just gained, but according to my professor the liquid reservoir doesn't allow heat exchange, so how do the molecules get rid of the PE.
I think they get rid of it by doing work in expansion this is why not all the gas is liquified, but i am having trouble with this conclusion as how the gas expand ( increase molecular distance) and liquify (decrease molecular distance) at the same time, i am really confused
 
Science news on Phys.org
abdo799 said:
I think they get rid of it by doing work in expansion this is why not all the gas is liquified, but i am having trouble with this conclusion as how the gas expand ( increase molecular distance) and liquify (decrease molecular distance) at the same time, i am really confused
I don't see quite a problem here, small droplets will condense out of the gas on expansion. The same thing is happening also when clouds are forming in the rising air on a hot day: The gas cools off while rising and expanding until small droplets of water start to condense out.
Ideally, during condensation, the temperature of the gas stays constant. So the energy the gas fraction needs to expand is taken from the heat of condensation of the part of the gas that condenses. It should be clear that the heat of condensation per mole is much larger than the heat absorbed on expansion by the gas fraction per mole, so only a tiny part of the gas really condenses out during each expansion step.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: abdo799
so some of the gas is condensing and the heat needed to be absorbed from it, is absorbed by some gas expanding?
 
Exactly
 
thanks
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
14K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
7K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
3K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
6K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K