What a lot of people are led to believe is that the testing actually protects people. Actually, the testing protects the companies from being sued when the drug does something it wasn't supposed to like kill or maim the consumer. Animal models are not as successful as they are made to seem and if you want to investigate this further (since it is off topic here), you can do some of it atloseyourname said:In fact, it's part of the process that every single drug must go through, by law, before it can be tested on humans. Now would you prefer we kill a couple of lab rats or we kill a couple of humans?
The real issue is, when it is not necessary to deprive another creature of life, should we do it? The implications of our attitudes towards the weak and the helpless be they humans, chickens or even earthworms is quite profound.loseyourname said:And I contend this is wrong. It is stupid to consider a man unethical if he steps on earthworms.
Some think that the ALF is a somewhat extreme wing of the AR movement. It is really rather extreme and bizarre to consider this to be a terrorist organization especially considering that there are far, far more dangerous ones around.loseyourname said:No, what's bizarre is comparing a terrorist organization to the French Resistance. Do you support the actions of the ALF?
Generally, AR activists do not resort to the destruction of property. However, ALF considers destruction of property to be non-violent:
The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) carries out direct action against animal abuse in the form of rescuing animals and causing financial loss to animal exploiters, usually through the damage and destruction of property.
The ALF's short-term aim is to save as many animals as possible and directly disrupt the practice of animal abuse. Their long term aim is to end all animal suffering by forcing animal abuse companies out of business.
It is a nonviolent campaign, activists taking all precautions not to harm any animal (human or otherwise).
I also think that it would be hard to deny that many realities would not have been uncovered if ALF (and others) had not initiated covert operations.
While you may argue the validity of ALF's position, you should also consider that practically all social justice movements had its more 'extreme', 'illegal', even 'violent' side (consider unionization, apartheid or women's suffrage). In fact, one could say that the existence of America itself came about through extreme, illegal actions far more violent than anything any animal rights organization has been responsible for. (I suppose the Brits thought they were dealing with a bunch of terrorists too, though I don't think the term was in fashion back then).
Let's look at what you said and what you were trying to do. The PETA line is that "Helping animals is not any more or less important than helping human beings they are both important." You take the 'less' part to try to paint the picture through your 'implication' that PETA regards animals to be just as important as humans - specifically your cockroach regarding which you directed your question to Elizabeth.loseyourname said:All right, you know what? This is getting really frustrating. What did I say that was different from what you said? If helping animals is no less important then helping humans, how is there not the implication that animals are no less important than humans?
Say I regard helping a cat at the SPCA important - in fact, I obviously regard it more important than helping the impoverished drunk on the street corner since I do not do help that individual at all. Can you conclude from my actions that I consider the cat to be more important than the drunk?
If you do, then it would seem that by far the vast majority of people in America (possibly yourself included) consider their pets (whom they help regularly) to be 'more important' than the millions of starving humans (whom they don't help at all) throughout the country and the world.
If you don't, perhaps then you are agreeing with what PETA says that "Helping animals is not any more or less important than helping human beings", without any implications of equal importance of the individuals concerned. The statement then is being taken according to its actual meaning which is that PETA considers helping animals and helping humans to be equally important. Personally, I would hope that this is not the case, since I would hope that PETA's primary responsibility would be towards animals and that as an organization they would consider helping animals to be more important than helping people whatever the personal beliefs of the individuals in the organization.
You are indeed right about the first part and this cruelty expose is just one example in a 2 decade history (here's more if you are interested: http://www.peta.org/about/milestones.html). However, if you investigate the latter, you may be surprised to see that one is not just a 'stupid stance' and that the 'extent of support' may need some qualification as would the term 'terrorist'.loseyourname said:Good for them. I'm sure they do a lot of great work. They also hold stupid stances on the use of animals for research and they openly support a terrorist organization.
Ok I won't accuse you of criticizing "PETA without knowing or even wanting to know what that organization is really about". I really wasn't accusing you specifically anyway - I was merely pointing out that the way you were interpreting the PETA statements was considerably different from their actual meaning and intent.loseyourname said:Perhaps, but I don't think you can accuse me of that. I've taken the time to look for third-party evaluation of them as well as look at their own website and official statements. I don't see how much more I could do to find out what they are really about.
The reason you did this, I think, is because you have some negative notions about PETA actions - no problem with that, I do too and I doubt if everyone in the organization necessarily likes everything that the organization does.
However, it is inappropriate to let your 'bias' on say the assumed 'lifesaving advancements of medical science as a direct result of animal experimentation', propose the conclusion that PETA considers a cockroach and a human life to be of equal value because they consider 'helping humans and helping animals to both be important'.
Unfortunately, such reasoning gets in the way of seeing what PETA actually does do which is to try to stop the abuse of animals. PETA has brought a very serious act of cruelty out in to the open - even the executives at KFC and Pilgrim's Pride are appalled (there's no reason to believe their revulsion is purely a media-motivated, fabricated pretense). This is the issue we should deal with, as many people in the thread have done with outrage, logic and compassion such as Evo, Monique, Elizabeth and Dissident Dan. It is hardly the time to be debating whether PETA supports terrorist organizations or cockroachs - because whatever PETA does has no bearing on what has happened.
I am not surprised by that. The one line of yours that that I thought was especially significant was "The page devoted to PETA may be one-sided, but is it true?" - in the post to DD about MADD (though I think your analysis of CCF regarding MADD is far too generous). I think you are sincere in finding out what is true. At least you use PETA's actual words (albeit with somewhat liberal poetic licentiousness), but you do not fabricate or resort to tabloid absurdity. Therefore perhaps you will continue to find out more about PETA through their website or through direct communication with their representatives. If you don't agree with their stance on a particular issue, hopefully you'll try to investigate rather than dismiss it.loseyourname said:To be fair, I don't have any problem with most of what they do.
PETA really is a significant and important force in our times and you may be surprised at the quality of people both in and supportive of that organization. You can find out about some of them on the PETA site (or even go to CCF who have done a fair job tracking a few of them down, LOL).
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