Kinetic Energy Dependent on Frame of Reference?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the dependence of kinetic energy on the frame of reference, particularly within the context of special relativity and classical mechanics. Participants explore how kinetic energy is perceived differently by observers in varying frames of reference, and the implications of this for both classical and relativistic physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that kinetic energy is frame dependent, noting that an observer in one frame may measure different kinetic energy for an object than an observer in another frame.
  • One participant references the classical mechanics perspective, stating that in the rest frame of an object, its kinetic energy is zero.
  • Another participant provides the relativistic expression for kinetic energy, indicating that it is derived from the total energy minus the rest energy, which is invariant across frames.
  • A later reply introduces the concept of four-momentum as a four-vector, suggesting that defining energy to include rest energy allows for a covariant treatment of energy and momentum across different frames.
  • Participants discuss the transformation of quantities between frames using Lorentz transformations, emphasizing the utility of covariant quantities to avoid errors in calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that kinetic energy is dependent on the frame of reference, but there are multiple competing views regarding the implications and formulations of this dependence in both classical and relativistic contexts. The discussion remains unresolved with respect to the nuances of these formulations.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the dependence on specific definitions of energy and momentum, as well as the need for clarity regarding the assumptions made in different frames of reference. The discussion also highlights the complexity of transforming between frames without resolving the mathematical intricacies involved.

UMath1
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According to special relativity, KE= ([PLAIN]https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/3/4/334de1ea38b615839e4ee6b65ee1b103.png-1)(mv^2)/2. Since the velocity measured is dependent on a person's frame of reference, then does that mean energy too is dependent on frame of reference? For example, if an observer in Car A is moving at velocity, V, and a person in Car B is moving at velocity, V, also, then according to the observer in Car A, the person in Car B would have 0 J of kinetic energy?
 
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Kinetic energy is indeed frame dependent.
 
UMath1 said:
According to special relativity, KE= ([PLAIN]https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/3/4/334de1ea38b615839e4ee6b65ee1b103.png-1)(mv^2)/2. Since the velocity measured is dependent on a person's frame of reference, then does that mean energy too is dependent on frame of reference? For example, if an observer in Car A is moving at velocity, V, and a person in Car B is moving at velocity, V, also, then according to the observer in Car A, the person in Car B would have 0 J of kinetic energy?
Energy is dependent on the frame of reference already in classical mechanics. In the rest frame of any object, the object has zero kinetic energy.

The kinetic energy in special relativity is given by ##T = (\gamma - 1) m c^2##, nothing else. For small ##v##, this is well approximated by the classical expression ##T = mv^2/2##.
 
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UMath1 said:
Since the velocity measured is dependent on a person's frame of reference, then does that mean energy too is dependent on frame of reference?

Yes. This is also true in Newtonian physics.

In special relativity kinetic energy is ##\gamma mc^2-mc^2##. The first term is the total energy, it's frame dependent. The second term is the rest energy, it's a relativistic invariant (has the same value in all reference frames).
 
One should note that the four-momentum
$$(p^{\mu})=\begin{pmatrix} E/c \\ \vec{p} \end{pmatrix}$$
is a four-vector if you define the energy such that it includes the rest energy, i.e., ##E=E_0+E_{\text{kin}}=c \sqrt{m^2 c^2+\vec{p}^2}##. Then the covariant expression
$$p_{\mu} p^{\mu}=m^2 c^2$$
contains the relation between energy and momentum.

In terms of space-time coordinates along the particle's trajectory you have
$$p^{\mu}=m \frac{\mathrm{d} x^{\mu}}{\mathrm{d} \tau} = m \frac{\mathrm{d} x^{\mu}}{\mathrm{d} t} \frac{\mathrm{d} t}{\mathrm{d} \tau} = m \gamma \begin{pmatrix} c \\ \mathrm{d} x/\mathrm{d} t \end{pmatrix}.$$
Thus the energy and momentum in terms of the three-velocity is
$$E=c p^0=m \gamma c^2, \quad \vec{p}=m \gamma \vec{v} \; \Rightarrow \; \vec{\beta}=\frac{\vec{v}}{c}=\frac{c \vec{p}}{E}.$$
If you need to transform from one to another frame via a Lorentz transformation, use covariant quantities like the four-momentum and then the just given expressions to derive the three velocity and other non-covariant quantity with its components in the new frame. That makes things much more convenient and much less dangerous to make a mistake. As any four-vector the four-momentum transforms as
$$p^{\prime \mu}={\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\nu} p^{\nu},$$
where ##{\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\nu}## is the Lorentz-transformation matrix.
 

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