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Laws & Rules in Emergence

  1. Jan 4, 2016 #1
    Are their specific laws or rules in emergence? For example, temperature is emergence from the underlying particles. Superconductivity is emergence from the cooper pairs. It seems you can turn off emergence by say increasing the temperature to disable the cooper pairs. In temperature, how do you do this?

    My question is emergence in spacetime. Tom.stoer summarize it best in https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/emergent-gravity-spacetime.393318/

    "There are a couple of rather different mechanims which could be summarized as emergent spacetime. The basic idea is the following: one starts with a theory w/o any spacetime structure and calculates (e.g.) a low-energy limit. Then one observes that spacetime and its symmetry emerges from the fundamental symmetry.

    You can compare this to (weakly interacting) quasi particles in solid state physics. The quasi particles like phonons, excitons, magnons, ..., Cooper pairs, ... are not fundamental degrees of freedom but are discovered once one eliminates, neglects, "integrates out", ... some fundamental degrees of freedom. The effective theory is valid in some regime, e.g. for some phenomena within a specific energy range; beyond that regime the theory breaks down, e.g. due to the fact that the quasi particles are no longer stable."

    Ok. My question is. What are the laws and rules of Emergence. If spacetime is emergent, then Lorentz Invariance is emergence. But just like superconductivity, you can turn off emergence by increasing the temperature. Does it mean you can turn off Lorentz invariance? Or not. Any rules of Emergence to decide what is the case? Any books or references about Emergence?
  2. jcsd
  3. Jan 4, 2016 #2


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    There are not rules of laws about emergence. As you say, you can always turn off something that emerges. So emergence comes about from making an error. There cannot be rules about the "best" way to make an error.
  4. Jan 4, 2016 #3
    what do you mean emergence comes about from making an error?

    about emergent spacetime.. there are many categories of them like the AdS/CFT, geometrogenesis.. my inquiry is about lorentz invariance in special relativity.. if it were emergent and can be turned off, then can one recover galilian spacetime or newtonian spacetime such that there is no speed limit of c and perhaps signals can be sent faster than light? what theorem makes this impossible? maybe newtonian spacetime is the the primary to lorentzian spacetime which is the secondary or emergent?
  5. Jan 4, 2016 #4


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    Emergence comes from making an error because if you really knew what was going on, you wouldn't see spacetime. You would see strings. It's only your low-resolution vision that makes you see spacetime.
  6. Jan 4, 2016 #5
    ok. do you know of the mathematical formalism or transformations that can embed lorentz invariance within a higher theory. for example in the higher theory. we can send signal to alpha centauri instantaneously whereas if you would use signalling limited by light, it would take years. like the lorentz invariance is emergence of a nonlocal theory.. and you can use this transformation to change mode and keep track on the laws of physics akin to lorentz transformations? im asking what kind of math can describe this or link them?
  7. Jan 5, 2016 #6


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    This article talks a bit about getting Lorentz invariance from non-Lorentz invariance.

    I think it remains unknown whether such systems can simulate chiral fermions.
  8. Jan 5, 2016 #7
    I read the archives and saw the following post by Peterdonis. He stated:

    "But there are plenty of other possible scenarios where things could in principle travel faster than light without creating such problems. For example, in the quantum experiments that confirmed violation of the Bell inequalities, spacelike separated measurements show a degree of correlation that should not be possible unless there was some sort of FTL connection between them. But this effect can't be used to send any signals (or gunshots); the measurement results are independent of which one is taken to occur "first", so they meet the above requirement."

    Atyy.. can't we say the Bell correlations use the original Galilean Newtonian spacetime? And somehow the Einsteinian spacetime is just either an emergence or additional to the Newtonian spacetime where things are instantaneous?

    Of course we can't use it to send instantaneously signal because the Big Bang produced mainly Einsteinian matter and fields that are Lorentzian Spacetime compliance. But what if we have a special Newtonian Bow and Arrow and you shoot it that uses the Newtonian space. Then it can move instantaneously from one galaxy to another. Since it doesn't travel in Einsteinian Spacetime, there will be no frames where it can be seen to move backward in time, is not it. Hence no casuality violations. Or can it couple to Einsteinian Spacetime and fields. This is the context of the transformation I mentioned where you can move back and forth between the Newtonian and Einstenian spacetime much like Lorentz transformation in differential inertial frames. Is such transformation mathematics even possible? The main point of my inquiry is whether such mathematics is possible.
  9. Jan 5, 2016 #8


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    Yes. However, it has not been solved for chiral fermions.
  10. Jan 5, 2016 #9
    You said yes. Is this only for massless field transform from lorentzian to galiliean space. What if mass (or matter field) is involved. For example is there a math procedure that can do the following:

    Transform a container located in say North Korea from lorentzian to Galilean (or others) spacetime.. and translate the matter field to its geometic or others equivalient. And let it retransform back to matter field (retransformed from galiliean to lorentzian spacetime) on opposite side of the planet without passing via Lorentzian spacetime? In other words, if spacetime and matter fields is emergent. And we can manipulate matter field and spacetime to transform to its more primary constitution. Can the North Korea in the future make their latest Hydrogen bombs appear in US soil instantaneously with t minus 3 seconds before detonation?

    If this is totally impossible. What theorem about emergent spacetime/matter fields make this impossible?
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