Let a clock A be at rest in an inertial frame and let a clock B rotate

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the time measurements of two clocks, A and B, where clock A is at rest in an inertial frame and clock B rotates around it with constant velocity. Participants explore the implications of special relativity (SR) on the time taken for clock B to complete one rotation as perceived by both clocks.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that according to clock A, the time taken for clock B to rotate once is t, and according to clock B, it is τ, referencing the formula t=γτ from SR.
  • Another participant questions the validity of the book's formula, proposing an alternative result of t=γ²τ and asking if the book is incorrect.
  • One participant describes the scenario using a non-inertial frame of reference, arguing that in this frame, the path of clock B appears as an ellipse due to length contraction, and provides a derivation leading to the conclusion that the acceleration felt by clock B is γ²v²/r.
  • Another participant counters the use of non-inertial frames, suggesting that the time for clock B can be determined more easily using an inertial frame and emphasizes the need for a specific definition of coordinate transformation when discussing non-inertial frames.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of special relativity and the use of non-inertial frames. There is no consensus on the correctness of the book's formula or the alternative proposed by one participant.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations regarding the assumptions made about non-inertial frames and the applicability of length contraction and time dilation formulas in such contexts.

Yayness
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Let a clock A be at rest in an inertial frame and let a clock B rotate around it with constant velocity and constant distance from A. Let v be the velocity of B relative to the inertial frame.
Both clocks count how long it takes for B to rotate once.
According to clock A, the time it takes is t, and according to clock B, the time it takes is τ.

My book used the formula from SR about time difference: t=γτ
I tried to find out if that was right and ended up with t=γ²τ. Is the book wrong?
 
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Yayness said:
Let a clock A be at rest in an inertial frame and let a clock B rotate around it with constant velocity and constant distance from A. Let v be the velocity of B relative to the inertial frame.
Both clocks count how long it takes for B to rotate once.
According to clock A, the time it takes is t, and according to clock B, the time it takes is τ.

My book used the formula from SR about time difference: t=γτ
I tried to find out if that was right and ended up with t=γ²τ. Is the book wrong?

How did you arrive at your answer? I think the book is right. This is speed dependent effecat.
 


I'll try to explain it shortly.

The path of the clock B forms a circle. Let this circle be at rest relative to the inertial frame and let the radius be r.

I added a non-inertial frame of reference where B is at rest. This reference frame does not rotate around its own axis, so left will always be left, and right will always be right etc.
In this reference frame the circle will look like an ellipse (because of length contradiction, as the whole circle has the same velocity relative to the reference frame), and B will always be located where the curvature of the ellipse is largest.

I added an imaginary circle inside the ellipse, and the perimeter goes through the clock B. The imaginary circle and the ellipse have the same curvature in this point. (See attachment.)

Because the curvature is the same, the clock B will feel an acceleration equal to v² divided by the radius of the imaginary circle (which is r/γ²). So the acceleration B will feel, is γ²v²/r, like if the radius of the real circle were r/γ².

I let t=2πr/v and τ=2πr/(γ²v) (because the radius of the imaginary circle is r/γ²). That's basically how I ended up with t=γ²τ.
 

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Yayness said:
I'll try to explain it shortly.

The path of the clock B forms a circle. Let this circle be at rest relative to the inertial frame and let the radius be r.

I added a non-inertial frame of reference where B is at rest. This reference frame does not rotate around its own axis, so left will always be left, and right will always be right etc.
In this reference frame the circle will look like an ellipse (because of length contradiction, as the whole circle has the same velocity relative to the reference frame)
The length contraction rule is only defined relative to inertial frames, you can't assume it would work the same way in a non-inertial frame. In the most common type of rotating frame, the path would still be a circle. If you want to use a different type of frame, you need to at least give a specific definition of the coordinate transformation from the inertial frame to your non-inertial frame, only then can you figure out how clocks will behave in this frame (just like with the length contraction formula, the standard time dilation formula also doesn't generally work in non-inertial frames).

In any case, why bring non-inertial frames into this? You can figure out the time on the rotating clock using an inertial frame, it's much easier.
 

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