Light energy, just like time, is relative?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between light energy, time, and their relative nature in the context of gravity and speed. Participants explore concepts such as redshift, blueshift, and the implications of relative motion on the perception of time and energy in light.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that increased gravity and speed through space affect the flow of time, leading to a slower perception of time relative to other observers.
  • There is a discussion about redshift being attributed to the expanding universe versus Doppler effects due to relative motion, with some participants suggesting these are different but compatible explanations.
  • One participant notes that as speed increases towards a light source, the light will shift towards higher energy frequencies, potentially leading to gamma rays, which could have destructive effects on a spacecraft.
  • Another participant clarifies that while one might perceive time as flowing normally, it is relative to other observers, not an absolute change in one's own experience of time.
  • Energy is discussed as being relative, with references to four-momentum and the stress-energy tensor as frameworks for understanding energy in different contexts.
  • A correction is made regarding the relationship between energy and frequency, with one participant pointing out a misstatement about Planck's constant.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the relativity of time and energy but express differing views on the interpretations of redshift and the implications of relative motion. The discussion remains unresolved on certain aspects, particularly regarding the nature of redshift and the effects of speed on light energy.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about the nature of time and energy may not be fully articulated, and the discussion relies on specific definitions of terms like redshift and blueshift, which may vary among participants.

Aspchizo
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Gravity and speed through space has an effect on time.

Increased gravity = slower time
Increased speed = slower time

When we look out at the stars and measure their spectrum, we see a red shift. This red shift is the result of the increase in the distance between the source of the light and us, otherwise known as the expanding of space.

So if we were to fly towards a star, as we increase our speed, the light should shift more and more. Eventually it would pass down through the spectrum to gamma rays, and our space shuttle would be torn apart by the immensly high energy gamma rays.

So the speed of light remains constant, but as you increase your speed towards the source of the light, your perception of time is slowed and the energy of the light shifts.

Anything wrong with this?
 
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Aspchizo said:
Gravity and speed through space has an effect on time.

This is not incorrect, but it is relative; when you say someone's time is slower, you have to specify what it is slower relative to. No one perceives their own time to be slower; everyone experiences their own time flowing at the same rate.

Aspchizo said:
When we look out at the stars and measure their spectrum, we see a red shift. This red shift is the result of the increase in the distance between the source of the light and us, otherwise known as the expanding of space.

That's one way of looking at it--the light gets stretched out as it travels through expanding space. But it's not the only way of looking at it; another is that it's just a Doppler redshift, caused by the fact that the source of the light is moving away from us--it's due to relative velocity, not light stretching out. These are not incompatible explanations; they're just different ways of looking at the same process.

Ned Wright's cosmology tutorial has a good discussion of this:

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo_02.htm

Aspchizo said:
So if we were to fly towards a star, as we increase our speed, the light should shift more and more. Eventually it would pass down through the spectrum to gamma rays, and our space shuttle would be torn apart by the immensly high energy gamma rays.

Yes, this is true, because the Doppler blueshift in frequency (blueshift because you're now moving towards the light source, rather than away) corresponds to a shift in energy, since energy is just Planck's constant divided by frequency.

Aspchizo said:
So the speed of light remains constant

Yes.

Aspchizo said:
as you increase your speed towards the source of the light, your perception of time is slowed

No; see above. Another observer moving relative to you might say that your time is slowed, but you yourself perceive no difference in your own flow of time.

Aspchizo said:
and the energy of the light shifts.

Yes.
 
Thanks for clarification. Also, I never meant to imply that we perceive a change in time, it is relative to someone else.
 
also, energy in all its forms is relative (whether it is contained in the electric field, or some other way). google four-momentum, or also, the stress-energy tensor.
 
PeterDonis said:
Yes, this is true, because the Doppler blueshift in frequency (blueshift because you're now moving towards the light source, rather than away) corresponds to a shift in energy, since energy is just Planck's constant divided by frequency.

Hi Peter. Surely you mean Planck's constant *times" frequency.
 
Saw said:
Surely you mean Planck's constant *times" frequency.

Yes, you're right. :redface:
 

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