Light Questions: Gravity & Mass

[Trevormbarker]

I have two main questions about light, one does gravity affect it? Two, does it have mass?
I have read lots of posts and articles and many say that light is directly affected by gravity while others say that gravity "bends" the spacetime arround it so the light appears to be curved but is in reality traveling straight through the curved spacetime. Also for the question about mass I have read that light has no mass but it has momemntum? My understanding of momentum is that is it mass x velocity so I do not understand how it can have no mass but have momentum.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Photons are affected by gravity in the sense that they trie to follow the 'straightest possible' lines or geodesics of the curved space- time so there is a bending of the light that the photons comprise. Since photons have no rest frame they also have no rest mass so Einstein's energy - mass relation reduces to E = pc for a photon so it does indeed have a momentum based on its energy.

 

[Trevormbarker]

so would it be correct to say that photons themselves are not directly affected by the gravity but they are traveling "straight" through the spacetime which is curved by gravity?

 

[khemist]

so would it be correct to say that photons themselves are not directly affected by the gravity but they are traveling "straight" through the spacetime which is curved by gravity?

Light travels on geodisks that are created from the presence of matter. In 3d space, it is generally a curved line. In 4d, it is straight.

I believe light is able to curve space time as well, but you need a lot of energy to make a serious "dent."

 

[Trevormbarker]

is that because the light has momentum and therefor non-rest mass? so enough of it could curve the space time like normal matter?

 

[WannabeNewton]

is that because the light has momentum and therefor non-rest mass? so enough of it could curve the space time like normal matter?

It has a certain energy and in GR the source of the curvature is the stress - energy tensor so even energy density contributes, if negligible, to the curved geometry.

 

[ZealScience]

Yes, it does bend under gravitational field, and is because of mass!

But it is not the inertial mass or rest mass. But according to E=mc², if it has energy, it must have mass.

 

[Drakkith]

so would it be correct to say that photons themselves are not directly affected by the gravity but they are traveling "straight" through the spacetime which is curved by gravity?

Isn't that exactly how gravity affects everything?

 

[ZealScience]

Isn't that exactly how gravity affects everything?

But that is only confined to the interpretation of general relativity...

 

[WannabeNewton]

But it is not the inertial mass or rest mass. But according to E=mc², if it has energy, it must have mass.

Except that we are talking about photons and that equation does not apply to photons.

 

[ZealScience]

Except that we are talking about photons and that equation does not apply to photons.

Why?

 

[WannabeNewton]

Why?

A photon has no rest frame so it has no rest mass. E = m$c^2$ only applies to particles in their rest frames.

 

[Drakkith]

But that is only confined to the interpretation of general relativity...

Is there another theory that explains it better than GR?

 

[ZealScience]

A photon has no rest frame so it has no rest mass. E = m$c^2$ only applies to particles in their rest frames.

No, for rest frame m is the rest mass or inertial mass. But for photon m is exactly the mass. Because the mass increase is inertial mass plus mass of kinetic energy, so using E=mc² got to be the mass of photon.

 

[WannabeNewton]

No, for rest frame m is the rest mass or inertial mass. But for photon m is exactly the mass. Because the mass increase is inertial mass plus mass of kinetic energy, so using E=mc² got to be the mass of photon.

For a particle not in its rest frame the mass - energy equation reads $E = ((m_{0}c^{2})^{2} + (pc)^{2})^{1/2}$ where $m_0$ is the rest mass of the particle meaning its mass in its rest frame. A photon has no such frame so the equation reduces to E = pc. E = m$c^2$ does not apply to photons.

 

[ZealScience]

For a particle not in its rest frame the mass - energy equation reads $E = ((m_{0}c^{2})^{2} + (pc)^{2})^{1/2}$ where $m_0$ is the rest mass of the particle meaning its mass in its rest frame. A photon has no such frame so the equation reduces to E = pc. E = m$c^2$ does not apply to photons.

In your equation, m₀ for photon is 0, so it is E=pc=mc²

Why it's not correct? I think E=mc² applies to all energies, otherwise objects emitting photons would not have conservation of energy/mass

 

[Drakkith]

In your equation, m₀ for photon is 0, so it is E=pc=mc²

Why it's not correct? I think E=mc² applies to all energies, otherwise objects emitting photons would not have conservation of energy/mass

Photons don't have rest mass, which is what the M stands for in the equation. But this really isn't an issue, as the FULL equation, as WannabeNewton posted above can easily be used in its full form for a photon. The mc^2 part just becomes 0. Since pc^2 + 0 equals pc^2, we simply shorten the equation up to E=pc

 

[ZealScience]

Photons don't have rest mass, which is what the M stands for in the equation. But this really isn't an issue, as the FULL equation, as WannabeNewton posted above can easily be used in its full form for a photon. The mc^2 part just becomes 0. Since pc^2 + 0 equals pc^2, we simply shorten the equation up to E=pc

So what's the problem with using E=mc²

 

[Drakkith]

So what's the problem with using E=mc²

For photons? The problem is that E=0 for photons if you use that, which isn't true. E = 0 x c^2 since m = 0. That results in E=0.

 

[Vanadium 50]

ZealScience, what you write is fundamentally incorrect, as people have been trying to tell you. You are misusing formulas.

In addition, it's experimentally excluded - if you use this to predict the deflection of a beam of light by a gravitational source, you will be off by a factor of 2.

 

[Lev]

I have two main questions about light, one does gravity affect it? Two, does it have mass?
I have read lots of posts and articles and many say that light is directly affected by gravity while others say that gravity "bends" the spacetime arround it so the light appears to be curved but is in reality traveling straight through the curved spacetime. Also for the question about mass I have read that light has no mass but it has momemntum? My understanding of momentum is that is it mass x velocity so I do not understand how it can have no mass but have momentum.

1st: You can have many different models (points of view) to the same phenomenon. The same with light: you can assume space-time was curved and it's not an Euclidean space anymore (so light actually travels in a straight line there). You can also say space is absolutely Euclidean and gravity affects light. These are two different points of view and both are correct in some cases.
2nd: photon has a mass. It only has no mass at rest. It's fully compatible with the fact photon travels only at speed of light.

 

[Trevormbarker]

alright thanks for all the replies I understand know! I was just confused because, mainly for the first question, I had read many conflicting answers.